Okay I know skipping gears is a "no-no", but my question is do I need to engage every gear as I downshift or can I just work through the ones I skip with the clutch depressed? It seems easiest to me to downshift to third and then go into neutral while braking as I'm coming up to a light. I then shift into second with the clutch depressed before coming to a stop and then obviously I shift into first prior to the light turning green. Is this acceptable? I would think in some regards this would be preferable/less wear then actually engaging each gear.
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Skip Shifting
- Thread starter Liquid
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Read this:
...from an older thread.
...from an older thread.
I'm glad to see this reply,
Since I recently purchased this 97, it seems odd about the unforgivedness (sp?) that the 6 speed has, you tend to have to hit the gears downwards correctly, or (your tranny wants to lock up until the proper rpm or gear mesh hits.)
I thought this could be a stick/linkage adjustment, but what you said holds a lot of creedance towards my issue complications during downshifting.
What do you think?
Thanks
Since I recently purchased this 97, it seems odd about the unforgivedness (sp?) that the 6 speed has, you tend to have to hit the gears downwards correctly, or (your tranny wants to lock up until the proper rpm or gear mesh hits.)
I thought this could be a stick/linkage adjustment, but what you said holds a lot of creedance towards my issue complications during downshifting.
What do you think?
Thanks
Not to sound like an A$$ but maybe you need to learn how to rev-match properly?
rev matching is not only great for your clutch life, it also sounds very cool to rev the engine as your gearing down.
you don't necessarily have to heel and toe on every downshift. a basic rev match downshift is
as your slowing down
1) hold the clutch pedal down
2) rev the engine with the clutch down
3) shift down
4) re engage the clutch.
if the rev is matched perfectly with the gear and mph, the car should not jerk in anyway.
i do this all the time on my 240sx and after 50-60K miles, i took the clutch out to have my pilot bearing changed, and the clutch still had 50% life left. it also preserves your synchros be reducing the speed difference of the gearset when you downshift.
you don't necessarily have to heel and toe on every downshift. a basic rev match downshift is
as your slowing down
1) hold the clutch pedal down
2) rev the engine with the clutch down
3) shift down
4) re engage the clutch.
if the rev is matched perfectly with the gear and mph, the car should not jerk in anyway.
i do this all the time on my 240sx and after 50-60K miles, i took the clutch out to have my pilot bearing changed, and the clutch still had 50% life left. it also preserves your synchros be reducing the speed difference of the gearset when you downshift.
I'm not sure how rev-matching has anything to do with the synchros. Rev-matching only helps to decrease clutch wear by matching the speed of the mainshaft to the speed of the engine before clutch disc contact. It slightly reduces overall mechanical stress on the clutch tranny and shaft but that's stress it can handle anyway.
If one shifts from 5th to 1st without letting the clutch out in between (also known as double-clutching) they are putting an enormous amount of stress on the synchros whether or not they rev-match on that downshift. The synchro wear comes solely from the action of putting the shifter into the lower gear, which has absolutely nothing to do with what the speed of the engine is relative to the mainshaft.
Heel-toe is just rev-matching while braking. You want to already be in the lower gear before exiting a turn you had to brake into. You wouldn't want to burn up your clutch or risk not being fully engaged on exit by just letting out the clutch without blipping the throttle. Since you should be going directly from brake to gas at the apex the shift must be completed while braking, meaning the throttle must be blipped while the foot is also braking, hence heel on the gas, toe on the brake.
If one shifts from 5th to 1st without letting the clutch out in between (also known as double-clutching) they are putting an enormous amount of stress on the synchros whether or not they rev-match on that downshift. The synchro wear comes solely from the action of putting the shifter into the lower gear, which has absolutely nothing to do with what the speed of the engine is relative to the mainshaft.
Heel-toe is just rev-matching while braking. You want to already be in the lower gear before exiting a turn you had to brake into. You wouldn't want to burn up your clutch or risk not being fully engaged on exit by just letting out the clutch without blipping the throttle. Since you should be going directly from brake to gas at the apex the shift must be completed while braking, meaning the throttle must be blipped while the foot is also braking, hence heel on the gas, toe on the brake.
Okay I think I am am clear now. What I am doing from 3rd to 1st is not a problem because I am not actually engaging the gear and stressing the synchros/clutch. Shifting but not engaging 2nd should be unneccessary though. However in downshifts from 6th to 3rd (not directly, 6th to 5th to 4th to 3rd) I should be rev-matching to lessen the stress on the clutch/synchros. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here (you'll need to read the 1st post to understand why going from 3rd to 1st is not an issue in this scenario). Thanks all!
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However in downshifts from 6th to 3rd I should be rev-matching to lessen the stress on the clutch/synchros.
As NSXGMS mentions, this will have no effect of your syncro wear. His explanation is right on, only clutch wear is effected, for the better, by rev-matching.
Regards,
LarryB
As NSXGMS mentions, this will have no effect of your syncro wear. His explanation is right on, only clutch wear is effected, for the better, by rev-matching.
Regards,
LarryB
Thanks guys. NSXGMS snuck that in there while I was replying. Let me repeat this back and see if I am understanding you all correctly.
Skip shifting, regardless of if it is up or down will put stress on the synchros and is to be avoided if possible. However, double clutching, which is to put the car in neutral between skip shifts will help lessen the impact to the synchros.
Rev matching on downshifts will help reduce clutch wear.
Sorry for all this. I'm not really slow, just not really mechanically inclined. :redface:
Skip shifting, regardless of if it is up or down will put stress on the synchros and is to be avoided if possible. However, double clutching, which is to put the car in neutral between skip shifts will help lessen the impact to the synchros.
Rev matching on downshifts will help reduce clutch wear.
Sorry for all this. I'm not really slow, just not really mechanically inclined. :redface:
That is correct. I double-clutch on all of my downshifts.
The steps are:
1. Disengage clutch and shift to neutral.
2. Re-engage clutch and blip the throttle (rev match)
3. Disengage clutch and shift into gear.
4. Re-engage clutch.
Takes all of a second to do once you get used to it.
The steps are:
1. Disengage clutch and shift to neutral.
2. Re-engage clutch and blip the throttle (rev match)
3. Disengage clutch and shift into gear.
4. Re-engage clutch.
Takes all of a second to do once you get used to it.
i know that is how you technically is suppose to do it. but i manage to skip the re-engage clutch part of step # 2 when i rev match on the downshift and heel-toe downshift and the car still downshifts perfectly smooth.
here is a video demonstration of someone doing both and explaining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA
i've almost never seen anyone do a an actual double clutch action when they're downshifting. i could be wrong though, because the way you explained it makes perfect sense.
Rev matching doesn't necessarily always involve using the clutch. I often rev-match and downshift (upshift as well) without the clutch.
And it maintains the balance of the car during deceleration.
Then you're not double clutching, you're heel-and-toe downshifting.
I you pull it in to neutral coming up to a light you don't need to pass theough any more gears. Just come to a stop and put it into first. If the engine is at idle and you're not moving it doesn't matter what gears you've skipped.
Kind of a minor point; down shifting heading into corners is needed, but when coming to a red light you are just stopping, and unless you enjoy the sounds, can just brake and de-clutch, and wait for the change. A stationary car, in gear with the clutch in is putting pressure against the crank thrust bearing, and will cause some wear. Easier on the engine's bits is to wait in neutral, and engage 1st just as the light changes.
I agreed.
WE shoud create some sort of new FAQ, and how to Properly drive a nsx. :biggrin:
I wouldn't worry about the minimal syncro wear on regular downshifting with heel and toe. Double Declutch is only needed when you skip gears, or putting it in 1st gear, as there's no syncro on 1st.
Eventually you should pick that up, as it's useful in these two situations (as an example.)
You coasted to a red light and before you fully stop the nsx, light turns green. 2nd gear is too tall, and of course if you could manage to baby the throttle, you might be getting away with the 2nd gear without lugging the engine. OR, you just blip the throttle, while you still in neutral, declutch while your hand moving the gear in first.
upon going up a steep drive way, (again 2nd gear is too tall), you do the same thing as above.... so you don't need to fully stop the nsx, and then put it in first on to the uphill.
Watch this video and you'll see some great examples of heel-and-toe shifting.
And in the beginning of this video you can clearly see Hattori heel-and-toe downshifting through each gear during his corner entry.
And in the beginning of this video you can clearly see Hattori heel-and-toe downshifting through each gear during his corner entry.
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you rarely seeing people skipping gears in Race, more less if you see good driver driving a car that they are not familiar with. As going down gears minimize the chance of blowing up the engine vs. skipping gear.
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I started to use skip shifting method since 1995 with my Integra GSR, ever since then, I have always own DOHC VTEC engine cars.
When I have some fun with the car, I will use standard shift patern, but my usual patern:
Shift from 1st to 3rd to either 5th or 6th (depend on the available gears).
I never had the need to change the clutch in any of my cars under my ownership. Range from my 1995 NSX of 48k miles to 1998 Honda Prelude of 133k miles.
When I have some fun with the car, I will use standard shift patern, but my usual patern:
Shift from 1st to 3rd to either 5th or 6th (depend on the available gears).
I never had the need to change the clutch in any of my cars under my ownership. Range from my 1995 NSX of 48k miles to 1998 Honda Prelude of 133k miles.
Skip shifting without double-clutching doesn't result in increased clutch wear--it results in accelerated synchro wear. If you shift from 1st to 3rd your third gear synchro is under more stress than it's designed for and will begin to show signs of wear (notchiness, grinding) earlier than normal.
I'm not sure why anyone would skip shift without double-clutching. Clearly if one is skip-shifting they're not concerned with speed or acceleration (unless one is braking hard and downshifting but unless you're on a track when do you need to drop that much speed and accelerate immediately afterwards?) A double-clutch takes all of about a quarter-second to perform and it keeps the synchros happy.
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I agreed most of what you saying...
But i had a good example for my itch to skip shift.
My bedroom is facing outside traffic mainroad which is 35mph, in fact it's a town house so all 7 of my neighbor's master bedroom are facing out the same direction. Coming home in the late night off highway ramp, I sometime caught myself doing around 50-55, cruising in 5th gear. There's 2 right hand turns before I get to my house, first one being more than 100 degree turn. Trying not to waking up my dog and my neighbors, I would put it in neutal, blip throttle and put it in 3rd gear right b4 turn-in. In fact if you practice it enough, I don't think you lost any time vs. downshift to 4th and then 3rd.
But i had a good example for my itch to skip shift.
My bedroom is facing outside traffic mainroad which is 35mph, in fact it's a town house so all 7 of my neighbor's master bedroom are facing out the same direction. Coming home in the late night off highway ramp, I sometime caught myself doing around 50-55, cruising in 5th gear. There's 2 right hand turns before I get to my house, first one being more than 100 degree turn. Trying not to waking up my dog and my neighbors, I would put it in neutal, blip throttle and put it in 3rd gear right b4 turn-in. In fact if you practice it enough, I don't think you lost any time vs. downshift to 4th and then 3rd.
