Simple upgraded stereo with OEM stealthiness

[TURBO2GO]

The crossover can't reside in the enclosure. That airspace is at a premium. So we have to install it outside some place. The loudspeaker cookbook is one of the best books you will find. Old but still good. I have some Vifa tweets I think are a good match. Passive crossover design is not my thing. I will have to research that to get these two drivers to match... then you have to mate them to the cabin. There is software that will design it for you once you drop in thiel/small parameters.

Yes, a plate that holds both would be nice.

 

[ky650]

Shame it can't go in the enclosure but makes sense. I'll look around for the book, hopefully its not too over my head.

I just took a look at my door and it sure doesn't look like there are many great mounting options for a crossover in there. If you're looking at the drivers side door from the inside there's room to the right of the speaker enclosure (towards the front of the car) or to the left of the enclosure, both have one mounting point that could be shared with the speaker enclosure itself. I'm assuming the upper area on the door is rather tight because the panel indents up there and behind the moisture barrier would be messy, require the barrier to be removed and reapplied for the install, and a solid weather proofed solution. How big is the crossover likely going to be? Any other thoughts?

Getting the tweeter in there on the same bracket as the midrange/woofer shouldn't be a problem as long as the tweeter's size is reasonable. These little Vifas I have are both shallow and small in diameter, I bet they could be angled quite well. What was it like taking the speaker grille off the door? Is it reasonably easy to put it back on and get OEM fitment? It looks like it's a bent metal grille which would be a little tricky to get back in place but it'd be really nice working on brackets and actually seeing how much clearance I have between the door and enclosure.

- - - Updated - - -

Just a random thought but I could possibly laser scan the enclosure and CAD up a new modified one that would better fit the components we're working with. The only problem is beyond the one off prototype I don't know how you'd ever make multiples affordably. It'd likely have to be composites because machining would get expensive fast. Would be cool though because then you could get your larger volume, port tuned for the driver, everything angled as you like it, and fit the crossover inside.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Yes that would be fantastic but will probably be very costly. You could make a prototype, then make a fiberglass mould off of that and make copies. If I had that flexibility I would even use a different driver.

Grille is not hard to pull off and put an at all. It's just bendable metal tabs.

 

[ky650]

Well just to speculate for a second here, what driver would you use? If I understood your other post correctly this enclosures volume is optimized for a ~4" and going any larger constrains the new driver so much it runs less optimally than a smaller driver, so the going with a larger driver for more bass is completely mitigated? How much more volume would you need to go larger? If you could get lets say a 5 or 6" driver in, would it create enough bass to mitigate the need for the subwoofer and thus keep overall system costs down?

If you really think there's a compelling reason to go that route I'd be down for possibly exploring it as I have experience with composites and access to equipment needed to create the molds. I'd just be worried about quickly straying away from the original premise of simple and affordable (at least that was my original goal) although it'd still be clean, easily installed, non damaging, and removable. The SoS subwoofer enclosure is $430 and that's just for one, I suspect the materials and labour for us would be close but there'd be 2x the enclosures. I unfortunately don't have any expertise with designing composites for production and how to go about the process in a way that keeps things fast and economical. Would be great if we could get some guidance from someone more familiar with this.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Yes we would need more volume but there is more room in the door especially length-wise. Could go to a 5.25" driver. The thing is that an enclosed driver in a proper cabinet would wipe its ass with a driver on a baffle in the door like currently done in terms of bass response. But I am also good with sticking with the OEM enclosure and not making this too much more complex. My -3db down point with the Aura in the enclosure was in the 60-70Hz range. That's low.

 

[ky650]

Alright, keep it simple with the stock enclosure for V1 and dream of CF enclosures with even more bass for V2

 

[racer-ex]

Is there any updates

 

[ky650]

Was playing around with two potential directions:

1. A mount that puts the tweeter next to the woofer where Turbo suggested. It angles the tweeter towards the driver a bit but is designed to be used specifically with the tweeter I have.


2. Exploring utilizing the top triangular trim panel area for a tweeter location. Turbo's thread had some thoughts on ideal placement which suggested somewhere near the A-pillar (that a lot of OEM stereos use in other cars) so I was trying to see what could be done there. I'm not a fan of the dash because of aesthetics/visibility and wiring challenges and while cutting a hole in my door would be the easiest solution I get squeamish at the thought of cutting a hole in my door like that. A completely new trim panel or hacking my current one up would be preferable since a replacement is only about $40. From just looking at the triangluar trim piece it looked like a tweeter would clear the mounting internals so I made a quick mount to test how things would fit. Looks like its a possible fit so I just need to do more work and get exact fitment down.

 

[ky650]

Got some crossovers today so I could connect the tweeter and woofer up. The crossovers happened to be just the right size and fit perfectly within the space the Bose amp used to occupy, it worked out great because everything is still nicely fits within the enclosure and there's no need to figure out mounting solutions somewhere on the door panel.


3d printed mount to connect the 4 Bose mounting points to the 2 crossover holes


Here's the crossover all wired up and ready to go. I'm using the OEM wiring harness going into the crossover, then the other half of it to the woofer and 2 extra wires running back out the enclosure for the tweeter.

After listened to both possible tweeter locations (beside the woofer and up by the a-pillar) there's no doubt in my mind the a-pillar is the way to do it. Overall I think this is a pretty strong improvement over the previous setup with the single tweeter in the center vent (you can say I told you so Turbo) but it means I'm going to have to find some way to fabricate a modified version of that triangular trim panel.

Differences with the sound:

Original setup (2 door woofers plus vent tweeter) - Sounded pretty good but the highs and lows were distinctly separated (sonically), you could easily tell the highs were coming from the front and center position which is what they normally do sort of... but it didn't sound natural.

Woofer and tweeter in the Bose enclosure side by side - While the sound was more cohesive the highs mostly disappeared (the tweeters were angled towards me as much as I thought I could realistically do within the space confines). The highs were better integrated with the woofers but the soundstage seemed wasn't in front as much as it would normally be. In some ways I liked this setup less than the original but I'm not sure if it may have sounded better if I had a way to bump up the volume on the tweeter to compensate.

Woofer in the Bose enclosure and tweeter by the a-pillar - Cohesive sound, soundstage in the proper spot, some form of real imaging, basically the sound you would expect to hear


Overall I'm really happy with the result now, I still can't believe how much bass these 4" drivers are putting out. I definitely don't feel like I'm in need of a subwoofer.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Nice work again. I knew the tweeters higher up would be better and they will be better still on the dash than the A pillar but I guess for looks and cleanliness that's a compromise that can be made. What are the specs on the Xover? I still feel this system is better off active with 4 amp channels and a separate adjustment for the tweeter and the woofer (and eventually subwoofer) three knobs with correct crossover points but with level adjustments. People can really tailor it to how they like their sound. Even though levels may not always be ruler flat on a FR chart it will allow tailoring for different ears and types of music and no one will complain as they can adjust to their hearts content. I'm almost done with my subwoofer design. In front of the seats you can't even see them. They fit that neatly and are that small.

 

[ky650]

Thanks. Yeah unfortunately I just don't know how I could get something on the dash that'd be as discreet and taking apart the dash to run wires sounds like a lot of work (plus holes). I'm hoping maybe I can mitigate the difference between a-pillar and dash with some angling. I won't be able to get too much if I want to stick within the same volume as the current trim piece but if it sticks out a tad then maybe I could push for 20-30 degrees.

I don't even know the specs of the crossover (not listed), its just a random one I chose that was cheap on Amazon and had 2 day Prime shipping. The brand name doesn't exactly inspire confidence but it works and I'm happy with the overall sound (yes I do know a high end crossover would sound better - but I'll refer to my engine noise argument :tongue. Here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005RUUB48/ref=oh_details_o01_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I agree with you on the amplifier but my goal was to have something simple and similarly priced to repairing the OEM bose amps, I'm not aware of an amplifier that would meet those requirements but then again I'm not that familiar with car audio. Since I was keeping the amp in the passenger footwell I had to go with a class D amp that wouldn't need ventilation which didn't leave that many options. My Alpine has 4 channels and some basic adjustments but not the quality that I assume you're referring to. I also wasn't sure how to feed another set of wires into the door so I only had the existing 2 signal cables to work with rather than the 4 needed for two separate drivers without a crossover. I know you were looking at a lot of different amps and other equipment, did you find anything that would also work in the footwell?

Awesome, I look forward to seeing how that turns out! How low do they go? I'm still blown away by how low and loud these little 4" woofers get!

On a side note maybe I need to put back on the engine cover real quick to see how the cabin sounds. I've only driven the car once with it and the second I got home it came right off. I'm assuming you can hear the sound system a lot better with it? These Direzza ZIIs aren't exactly quiet either...

 

[TURBO2GO]

taking apart the dash to run wires sounds like a lot of work (plus holes).

No need to take the dash off or apart, it is easy to get wires near the bottom of the A down and below the dash.

I'm hoping maybe I can mitigate the difference between a-pillar and dash with some angling. I won't be able to get too much if I want to stick within the same volume as the current trim piece but if it sticks out a tad then maybe I could push for 20-30 degrees.

They need to fire towards the top center of the divider glass. That is where you need to aim both.

I don't even know the specs of the crossover (not listed), its just a random one I chose that was cheap on Amazon and had 2 day Prime shipping.

Yeah that's not designed for what you have. The issue isn't just frequency. The issue is also sensitivity. You have mismatched drivers and you need to be able to match levels. If your tweeter or woofer have a higher sensitivity you are going to end up with very uneven sound. With an active crossover you can match them. Also the airspace in that enclosure is small and precious it is best not to take it up with too much in there if you are going to use it as a sealed (ported) enclosure. I have done what you did there with other Xovers but that was a very different setup.

I agree with you on the amplifier but my goal was to have something simple and similarly priced to repairing the OEM bose amps, I'm not aware of an amplifier that would meet those requirements but then again I'm not that familiar with car audio.

This system I am proposing needs a 5 or 6 channel amp. Or a 4 channel amp and a small 2 channel for the tweeters. You will like my mini-subs. We need power to drive them. I am using a JL Audio XD 600/6. It's also a small class D.

I also wasn't sure how to feed another set of wires into the door so I only had the existing 2 signal cables to work with rather than the 4 needed for two separate drivers without a crossover

That can eaily be achieved by this method. Open the car doors. Look at the area on the dash where the door meets the dash. You will see a huge air vent designed to get air from the defroster into the door. When shut, these two parts meet with very tight tolerances. It is basically airtight. That plastic vent on the dash is also easily removable and right behind it is an opening into the dash are down low. You can get a wire from under the dash and into that vent easily. If you take apart the door, the other "half" of that vent is in the door and again plastic and easily accessible. you can drill a small hole in it, run a 4 conductor wire, and seal up your hole. It is in the door, never seen, and leaves everything perfectly functional as before. If you run 4 conductors into the dash area vent as well, all you need now is to make contact between these two when the doors are shut. This device will do that and can handle 20 amps, Waaaaay more than speakers will ever need. This is an ease peasy wire install without having to pull off the rubber factory door grommets then fishing wires through them. That is MAJOR difficult work for most peeps but what I am suggesting here almost anyone can do.

Don't pay attention to the photo. That is a generic photo. The link and product number is to get you 4 conductors.

Those signal wire we are using as speaker wires for the door are a bit anemic. This will get you more current, avoid a capacitor of some sort that seems to lie within that wiring, and get you 4 conductors.

 

[ky650]

No need to take the dash off or apart, it is easy to get wires near the bottom of the A down and below the dash.

That's cool, so you just remove the a-pillar trim piece and you're able to get your hands through the hole to feed a bit of wire through? What's it like to get wires from that part of the dash to the center console area though? Still don't want B&W tweeters on my dash though, maybe an elecrostat or ribbon a-pillar would be okay though :biggrin:

They need to fire towards the top center of the divider glass. That is where you need to aim both.

At the moment if I want to stick within the space provided by the stock trim piece I think the tweeter has to be nearly flush which is obviously the worst for sound (pointing perpendicular to the driver). If I change the trim piece to look something like this with a protruding angled tweeter I don't really think that'd look bad at all.

Yeah that's not designed for what you have. The issue isn't just frequency. The issue is also sensitivity. You have mismatched drivers and you need to be able to match levels. If your tweeter or woofer have a higher sensitivity you are going to end up with very uneven sound. With an active crossover you can match them. Also the airspace in that enclosure is small and precious it is best not to take it up with too much in there if you are going to use it as a sealed (ported) enclosure. I have done what you did there with other Xovers but that was a very different setup.

Agreed. I suppose the ideal in my case would be having an active one I could adjust, find the settings that sound best, and then make a custom crossover that goes in that enclosure (I really like the idea of keeping it all self contained). Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to design one. That might just be another project for down the road although now that the doors are back on finally I don't know if I'll want to take them off again. As far as using up internal enclosure volume for the crossover, what would I get if I had more room? Lower or louder bass? It definitely goes loud enough right now but going further below ~60hz would always be nice. This driver uses up substantially more volume than the Dayton/Aura you were using but seems to put out similar bass (note I did a few hours of quick testing, I didn't spend days/weeks getting familiar with the drivers).

This system I am proposing needs a 5 or 6 channel amp. Or a 4 channel amp and a small 2 channel for the tweeters. You will like my mini-subs. We need power to drive them. I am using a JL Audio XD 600/6. It's also a small class D.

Where are you keeping your electronics? I just barely got the Alpine to fit in the footwell and it's a good deal smaller than the JL.

That can eaily be achieved by this method. Open the car doors. Look at the area on the dash where the door meets the dash. You will see a huge air vent designed to get air from the defroster into the door. When shut, these two parts meet with very tight tolerances. It is basically airtight. That plastic vent on the dash is also easily removable and right behind it is an opening into the dash are down low. You can get a wire from under the dash and into that vent easily. If you take apart the door, the other "half" of that vent is in the door and again plastic and easily accessible. you can drill a small hole in it, run a 4 conductor wire, and seal up your hole. It is in the door, never seen, and leaves everything perfectly functional as before. If you run 4 conductors into the dash area vent as well, all you need now is to make contact between these two when the doors are shut. This device will do that and can handle 20 amps, Waaaaay more than speakers will ever need. This is an ease peasy wire install without having to pull off the rubber factory door grommets then fishing wires through them. That is MAJOR difficult work for most peeps but what I am suggesting here almost anyone can do.

Don't pay attention to the photo. That is a generic photo. The link and product number is to get you 4 conductors.

Those signal wire we are using as speaker wires for the door are a bit anemic. This will get you more current, avoid a capacitor of some sort that seems to lie within that wiring, and get you 4 conductors.

Wow that's an awesome solution! If I had known about that I definitely would've considered going that route - another thing to consider for future upgrades. I guess this is where our directions really start to diverge, the stuff you're talking about is great for the best stealth sound system possible that doesn't involve ruining your interior whereas I was hoping to design something that would be an easy swap/modification of a few parts and calling it a day. There's some overlap in parts needed to pull off both like the driver mounts for the Bose enclosure. I think a setup like this would be a better bottom end offering that replaces the original system for a few hundred dollars and your setup would be ideal for those who want to go all out with higher end electronics and slightly more involved setup. Either way I don't think anything on the market really addresses the direction we're both going in.

I wish you were closer because I'd love to hear what your setup sounds like so I can get a better perspective as to what's actually possible. It's hard to talk about improvement without having a broader understanding of car audio potential and points of diminishing returns. My current build doesn't sound anywhere near as good as my home system but I just assume that's not even going to be feasible (nevermind the price difference). I have no idea how much the deficiencies I'm hearing are caused by the interior cabin space and materials, my off center seating position, using a class D amp vs an A, the OEM head unit degrading signal quality, the Grom iphone adapter's DAC, bluetooth, etc. I suppose if one had a lot of time a real DAC and home amplifier could be used to get a baseline... These drivers sure did sound a lot better in my room hooked up to my home gear.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Don't worry about that stuff. Get a good tweeter housing made. I think you are making too big a deal out of my very easy and inexpensive solution of getting 4 conductors into the doors. This isn't complicated, anyone that is installing the tweeter has to remove the door panels no matter what and even a monkey can get the speaker wire from the vent to the dash. What we need is the bose enclosure adaptors that I am currently making from MDF by hand, in a more uniform mould. And we need the tweeter housing. Bigger is fine. Let's do it right. It is not that intrusive. I have the subwoofer solution finished. No need for the footwell sub. That makes a lot of space for an amp.

 

[ky650]

Yep the tweeter trim piece/housing is next up on the list. I just need to make the time to get this trim piece laser scanned so I can work on creating an accurate model in CAD and then design the tweeter modifications around that. Do you see that location as a fair compromise for your sound system kit as well? I know people were on the fence about tweeters on the dash but I don't recall which location you were going to go with.

I agree that those door contacts aren't that involving, I just meant that it would've been cool to have a more streamlined plug and play solution for the community that's just a bit more involved than fixing the Bose amps as the baseline option all the way to the full blown system you're working on with active EQs, subwoofers, etc.

Can you send me some photos/post them up here with what you've got so far for the adapters? I'm curious what that's shaping up like.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Yes, I think that trim piece is an OK compromise provided you get the angle. It should still work very well there. One of the main reasons I wanted to do dash was for wiring. You wouldn't need to get two more conductors into the door.

If you want to compromise further and install a passive xover a proper one can be designed for a particular set of drivers, and wired off the OEM wires. Either way you need the tweeter housing. That is a viable, sellable product. What do you want to see a picture of? I will post on the subwoofer when I am done. Should be next month. I have a fully finished functioning model, just finishing the aesthetics.

 

[ky650]

Got it, I didn't think test the tweeters up there really quick for the hell of it. What kind of an improvement do you think you were getting up there? the gauge cluster bump wasn't getting in the way? The difference between the tweeter up by the a-pillar and lower door by the woofer was certainly huge but I assumed that was more of a line of sight + height thing. I'd imagine the difference to be far subtler right?

The only other catch with the tweeter is there's a lot less volume to work with and mounting is very specific to the tweeter itself. With the woofer there's a mounting surface and you can drill in a 3, 4, 5, or 6 hole pattern yourself easily to make whatever you like fit. Of the tweeters I got to test out this is the only one that'd even come close to fitting because the others had far larger bezels around them. There'd basically have to be one or two tweeter options but that might not really be a problem for most.

A picture of your angled mount for the Aura drivers. I'm just curious how angled you're able to get it and just what its looking like in general. I'm just trying to understand how easily it'd be to produce with other means.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I already posted a pic of that on my thread, I will look for it. Having one or two specific tweeters is fine. Lets pick a good one and just use that.

 

[ky650]

I already posted a pic of that on my thread, I will look for it. Having one or two specific tweeters is fine. Lets pick a good one and just use that.

I found it, I just wasnt sure if it had changed since your post or not.

Anyways, I printed some adjustable mounts to hold the tweeters in place until I gget around to making a proper trim pieces. You can kind of get an idea how much room there is to work with and what kind of angle is possible