Scientists agree: Humans causing global warming

Not sure if you checked out the link I provided in my first post, but to give you an idea of the material I digested to write my report, here is a good example:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

It's very tedious to absorb because I'm not a scientist but the above site is probably the most compelling evidence to at least realize there is certainly a major discussion in regards to 'global warming' and that any action now would be premature and quite likely to be extremely wasteful.
 
Even if we suddenly had a 1000 year life span, I would be very grateful to live in a period of warming. Warming is a far more survivable circumstance when compared to cooling. They each have their own problems, but one is far more preferrable. A sustaninable food supply is an absolute impossibility if glaciers cover 75% of the earth. On the other end, through systemic de-salination/irragtion.... even a climate simalar to today's Mongolia can be turned into a bread basket in a warmer/de-ice capped world.

Global warming and cooling are certainties... they have occurred 1,000's of times in the absence of a wide-spread human population. Predicting a cooling or warming phase is just like predicting an economic downturn.... you will be right at some point as long as you are around long enough to see it when it finally arrives. True linear progression is a non-existant phenomenon in nature. This planet has waved in and out of ice ages and warming phases for billions of years. Why is it so shocking that it's warming again? Of course human activity is contributing... but to say with any certainty that we are the tipping point factor is a flawed proof. In addition, it is a futile argument until we are able to monitor an exact earth replica in the same orbit at the same point in the solar cycle without a human population. The truth is no scientist or group of scientists have any shred of an idea if we are .05%, 5%, or 50% of the cause. Until variables can be compared against a control or monitored in a vaccum, all impossible have you, we will never know. Educated guesses or hypothesis' are interesting, but are generally problem ridden and proved inaccurate in almost all cases. The 'Speed of light is constant', the 'World is flat', or the 'Earth is the center of the universe'... all seemed reasonable at the time of the claim and yet we laugh at all them in retrospect. Aside from being a false statement, claiming consensus proves nothing.

That said, mankind should be taking drastic action to limit all of our negative contributions the air/land/sea to better the world's collective health first and foremost. That's where the biggest bang for the buck is..... the planet will continue to swing from hot to cold, at least we should try to be healthy while the planet continues to do it's thing. Afterall, you can only sh*t where you sleep for so long before you have to sleep in sh*t.
 
The truth is no scientist or group of scientists have any shred of an idea if we are .05%, 5%, or 50% of the cause. Until variables can be compared against a control or monitored in a vaccum, all impossible have you, we will never know. Educated guesses or hypothesis' are interesting, but are generally problem ridden and proved inaccurate in almost all cases. The 'Speed of light is constant', the 'World is flat', or the 'Earth is the center of the universe'... all seemed reasonable at the time of the claim and yet we laugh at all them in retrospect. Aside from being a false statement, claiming consensus proves nothing.

That said, mankind should be taking drastic action to limit all of our negative contributions the air/land/sea to better the world's collective health first and foremost. That's where the biggest bang for the buck is..... the planet will continue to swing from hot to cold, at least we should try to be healthy while the planet continues to do it's thing. Afterall, you can only sh*t where you sleep for so long before you have to sleep in sh*t.

Excellent post. The reason why people such as myself even bother to argue is because like assuming the world is flat, there are grave consequences. At one point people were scared to explore the Earth because they perceived it as flat, there is no way to measure the "damage" that caused. Spending trillions of dollars and simultaneously strangling struggling economies further pointlessly can be just as detrimental if not moreso to the human race.
 
Sig, good post, I totally agree.

There's no question that the warming is accelerating. What's not so certain is whether we are contributing to it, or have any control over it. It would however be irresponsible to ignore that we MIGHT have something to do with it and carry on our merry way.

And yeah, if given the choice, I'd rather Toronto had Caribbean-like weather than the brutal crappy cold we're dealing with right now ;)
 
You don't need a PhD to view the satellite imagery over the past 10 years and recognize the incredible decrease in ice in this region.

But you DO need a PhD to get hired by a special interest group to add credibility to their argument that global warming isn't happening, in the face of a global supermajority of experts that say it is. :rolleyes:
 
I'm still not convinced of the "crisis" situation that some are pushing, or convinced to what degree man is causing global temp. increase.
A few "factlets":
Every person puts out about 2.2lbs of CO2 per day.
All man-made sources of CO2 emissions (cars,planes,coal plants,etc.) only account for 1/30th of all CO2 emissions, the rest occur naturally, so even if all mankind were eliminated tomorrow, there would be minimal effect.
The polar ice caps used to extend down into the state of Ohio, so has all of thatsubsequent warming been a good thing?
The highly touted study just released has sea levels rising just 1 foot, which is a revision down from 1.5 feet. So, why does Al Gore still cling to his prediction of a 20 foot rise in sea levels?
Also, other planets are warming up also, and they have no human activity. Does this indicate solar activity as the source of heating?

I am still relatively uneducated on this subject, so if anyone has counterfacts/arguments, please feel free...
 
But you DO need a PhD to get hired by a special interest group to add credibility to their argument that global warming isn't happening, in the face of a global supermajority of experts that say it is. :rolleyes:

Did you read any of what I said? Check any of my links? Statements like this are just plain ignorant. I know I sound like Micheal Jackson of South Park but it's true. If you believe global warming is a serious issue based on research and your own conclusions, more power to you. I am no scientist and your opinion is as right as mine. But do not simply be blinded by the media among other organizations or accuse me of being so.

The link I've posted twice is currently supported and signed by over 20,000 scientists credited and verified by independent sources.
They also have an extremely strict policy of zero commercial funding of any type.
They also have an extremely strict policy of zero commercial funding of any type.
Put it twice in case you missed it again.

The organization itself even pays for the site with no advertisements whatsoever. Do you have evidence that even a small % in comparison to 20,000 degreed scientists believe global warming is real? The largest I'm aware is the IPCC which had 4,000 scientists on staff.

Even that is highly misleading as close to 40% of those scientists either had no conclusions or did not believe global warming was in any way human induced. Not to mention the high amount of bias that always comes when a govt agency's findings directly relate to their personal income potential.

[pay 10 scientists to find out if there might be a disease that causes you to grow purple hair than they'll spend 20 years on it if you continue to pay them]

I'm 100% for everyone having an educated opinion and voicing it. However, take the time to at least read why such a staggering number of credited scientists disagree with global warming before regurgitate propaganda you can't back up.
 
If you believe global warming is a serious issue based on research and your own conclusions, more power to you. I am no scientist and your opinion is as right as mine. But do not simply be blinded by the media among other organizations or accuse me of being so.

Respect! You sound just like me. :tongue:

Seriously, I don't have a very informed or strong opinion on the matter either way. I obviously don't have any data from which to form my own independant conclusion, as do (probably) none of us. I'm impressed that you have done some digging of others conclusions hower.

My opinion is based primarily on this:
1. I don't see a strong economic argument for "pushing the global warming agenda" - not by scientists from around the world. A couple billion in research (for their benefit) is nothing compared to the global cost of actually reducing CO2. Besides, the atmospheric researchers I have come across in Boulder (NOAA) didn't seem to be very money driven anyway.

2. The arguments "against" global warming have been weak IMO. Usually very politically driven, here in the States, and can be boiled down to "We just don't know enough." You can still spend billions on research, for the sole scientists benefit to help answer the question. In other words, scientists aren't incentivized to render any opinion at all -- but a majority have.

Conversely, there is an incredibly strong economic argument for doing nothing.

Observing both sides' arguments, and their relative economic motives, is the basis for my opinion. Certainly isn't any global warming going on today though!
 
The link I've posted twice is currently supported and signed by over 20,000 scientists credited and verified by independent sources.
They also have an extremely strict policy of zero commercial funding of any type.
They also have an extremely strict policy of zero commercial funding of any type.
Put it twice in case you missed it again.

The organization itself even pays for the site with no advertisements whatsoever. Do you have evidence that even a small % in comparison to 20,000 degreed scientists believe global warming is real? The largest I'm aware is the IPCC which had 4,000 scientists on staff.

There are a few problems with the link of 20,000 scientists.

1) According to the site itself, only about 13% have the appropriate background and qualified in the science. Only 2/3rds actually held a higher degree, so 1/3rd may be high school dropouts with a helium balloon and a barometer, pretending to be climatologists ;)

2) There is a question of the wording of the petition which doesn't just question the scientific basis of global warming, but states that human induced gases can cause "catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere". Well duh. It's one thing to say that humans may be responsible for accelerating global warming, and another to say that humans are responsible for turning the earth into a burning fireball. Many might agree with the first statement, but nobody would agree with the second :D

3) With a little digging, it appears that two of the scientists (Baliunus and Soon) that authored the paper that went along with the petition were senior scientists at a right-wing think tank (George C Marshall Instititute) and have been affiliated with advocacy groups funded in part by ExxonMobil. Maybe the petition itself wasn't funded directly by any commercial interest, but there is some doubt cast on the people who put forth the petition, the scientific paper you linked to above, and their motivation.

4) This petition was signed in 1998. There has been tremendous change in scientific opinion since then. In fact, scientific american did a survey of a small number of the scientists from that petition who claimed to hold a PhD in a climate related science. Here's a quote from the SA website (http://www.sciam.com/page.cfm?section=sidebar&articleID=0004F43C-DC1A-1C6E-84A9809EC588EF21)

Scientific American took a random sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition—one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers--a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community.


In any case I don't think it's fair to bash the scientific representation in IPCC. This group is not intended to represent just scientists, but they do have a significant (2500+) scientists specialized in the field of climate research. More importantly, this group does not conduct any of its own research. Rather, they form working groups and base their assessments on the much wider body of peer reviewed and published scientific research.

For example, there are other, much larger scientific organizations that support the notion of global warming, such as the American Meteorological Society with over 11,000 members.

Aside from all this, I think what's particularly concerning to me is the petition put forth by the Union of Concerned Scientists a couple of months ago and signed by 10,600 scientists (including 52 nobel laureates) alleging censorship and political interference in federal science. There have been many allegations specifically of altering reports, including those related to global warming. This should be alarming to everyone, because science should not be driven by political agendas!
 
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Here's the opening paragraphs from an article on CBS news from last week:

"Two private advocacy groups told a congressional hearing Tuesday that climate scientists at seven government agencies say they have been subjected to political pressure aimed at downplaying the threat of global warming.

The groups presented a survey that shows two in five of the 279 climate scientists who responded to a questionnaire complained that some of their scientific papers had been edited in a way that changed their meaning. Nearly half of the 279 said in response to another question that at some point they had been told to delete reference to "global warming" or "climate change" from a report."

Full article here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/30/politics/main2413400.shtml
 
There are a few problems with the link of 20,000 scientists.

1) According to the site itself, only about 13% have the appropriate background and qualified in the science. Only 2/3rds actually held a higher degree, so 1/3rd may be high school dropouts with a helium balloon and a barometer, pretending to be climatologists ;)

I think that's a bit misleading. About 13% are "especially well qualified". It says 2/3rd's with "advanced" degrees, so I'm assuming the rest are "just" scientists. Here's the actual text, for what's worth-

During the past 2 years, more than 17,100 basic and applied American scientists, two-thirds with advanced degrees, have signed the Global Warming Petition.
Signers of this petition so far include 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and environmental scientists (select this link for a listing of these individuals) who are especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide on the Earth's atmosphere and climate.


2) There is a question of the wording of the petition which doesn't just question the scientific basis of global warming, but states that human induced gases can cause "catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere". Well duh. It's one thing to say that humans may be responsible for accelerating global warming, and another to say that humans are responsible for turning the earth into a burning fireball. Many might agree with the first statement, but nobody would agree with the second :D

I'm a bit confused on this one. This is what I think you are refering to-

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate

I read it as specifically saying "there is no convincing evidence that human release of C02... is causing or will.. cause catastrophic heating.."

Maybe we are looking at different parts or interpreting it differently?
Edit.. nvm I see what you are refering to, that the specific magnitude of the heating could be too vague. It doesn't seem odd to me because words like 'catastrophic' are used too much in these types of documents; it seems to lose it's 'punch' to me. I think it is important to note it does say there is no evidence it will cause disruption of the Earth's climate specifically. I can see how the first statement is indeed vague.
3) With a little digging, it appears that two of the scientists (Baliunus and Soon) that authored the paper that went along with the petition were senior scientists at a right-wing think tank (George C Marshall Instititute) and have been affiliated with advocacy groups funded in part by ExxonMobil. Maybe the petition itself wasn't funded directly by any commercial interest, but there is some doubt cast on the people who put forth the petition, the scientific paper you linked to above, and their motivation.

I think it would be very difficult to find any outspoken scientist or any field that hasn't had some contact with a commercial organization. Obviously you can read into more if you want, maybe justly so. This isn't really fair for me as I've read hundreds of documents or sections of them by Baliunas; I'm very familiar with her personal feelings on the matter.
4) This petition was signed in 1998. There has been tremendous change in scientific opinion since then. In fact, scientific american did a survey of a small number of the scientists from that petition who claimed to hold a PhD in a climate related science. Here's a quote from the SA website (http://www.sciam.com/page.cfm?section=sidebar&articleID=0004F43C-DC1A-1C6E-84A9809EC588EF21)

Scientific American took a random sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition—one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers--a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community.

It was signed in 1998 and it isn't up to date in many aspects. I think after signing a petition nearly a decade before, many people's mind will be changed regardless of the subject. That being said, it very well could be that 20 of the 26 scientists still agree with the fundemantal elements of the petition. Hell if I know, but based on what you told me it can't be disproved. I'm glad you showed me that though.
In any case I don't think it's fair to bash the scientific representation in IPCC. This group is not intended to represent just scientists, but they do have a significant (2500+) scientists specialized in the field of climate research. More importantly, this group does not conduct any of its own research. Rather, they form working groups and base their assessments on the much wider body of peer reviewed and published scientific research.

It's hard to contend that without breaking the dam wide open. There is so much controversy on the IPPC you wouldn't believe it. Many of the scientists' work I read were from the IPCC, on both sides. They have improved significantly in their systems, but it still has a quite negative shadow casted on it from the view of many scientists, especially in the U.S.
For example, there are other, much larger scientific organizations that support the notion of global warming, such as the American Meteorological Society with over 11,000 members.

Aside from all this, I think what's particularly concerning to me is the petition put forth by the Union of Concerned Scientists a couple of months ago and signed by 10,600 scientists (including 52 nobel laureates) alleging censorship and political interference in federal science. There have been many allegations specifically of altering reports, including those related to global warming. This should be alarming to everyone, because science should not be driven by political agendas!

As I've said over and over again, the most important part is to keep learning and keep 2nd guessing everything we are told. The last part you mention is probably the most important part of this thread. It doesn't matter the side, I would be equally as disturbed when politics disrupts truth of this kind of importance. This is what we need to watch out for and try to avoid. Good post.
 
I learned from you and took the initiative to check out the American Meteorological Society. Although it has 11,000 members, anyone can join who's willing to pay dues. A significant portion of their members were teachers of children and students.

Besides the scientists hosting seminars etc., I didn't see any general consensus of qualified peoples specifically saying anything regarding it.

It's nice to see an active and up to date website though. I plan on looking more into it.. say when it isn't 2am.:biggrin:
 
My point wasn't to entirely discredit the petition or the signatories (although it does contain people like "Redwine, PhD"). I did however want to point out that there may be more to it than what we see on the surface. For example, Baliunas has been a long outspoken critic while working at the Marshall Institute, which directly received millions of dollars in funding from ExxonMobil and other oil companies over the past 25 years. It should not be surprising that the oil companies have their own economic agenda in mind. In fact, from an internal ExxonMobil memo: "Victory will be achieved when uncertainties in climate science become part of the conventional wisdom."

We also have to look at the context of the petition. It came about just before the US was expected to ratify the kyoto protocol, and the first line of the petition reads: "We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals." It's easy to see that companies like ExxonMobil had a lot to lose if this went through. Just last week, ExxonMobil posted the LARGEST annual profit by a US company EVER. $39.5B dollars in PROFIT, breaking their own record profit from the year before of $36.13B. Clearly, there are big dollars at stake here.

With a little bit of digging, it appears that the article that you linked to above, (which accompanied the petition) is also not without controversy. For example, the lead author is a biochemist at Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine where he conducts research on protein chemistry. What expertise does he have in the field of climate research? The other two authors (who I suspect did the actual paper) worked for the Marshall Institute and were likely influenced by their earlier research. The fourth author was the lead authors 22 year old son -- what expertise did he bring to the table?

The other point brought up by critics of this paper is that it was written in the style of a contribution to the proceedings to the National Academy of Sciences, giving the impression that it had been peer-reviewed. In fact, NAS made a press release stating that this was not published in their scientific journal or any other peer reviewed journal. It was also pointed out that there are several misleading and incorrect statements in the papers, including critical data such as the correlation between CO2 levels and average global temperatures which are discredited by other available measurements.

Bottom line is that there are enough reasons, that by themselves might not cause concern, but gathered together should cast some doubt on the actual paper. It's not to say that everything in the paper is a lie, but that we should not necessarily take it at face value either.

Like you said, it's important for us all to do our own research, use critical thinking, and to not rely on any one single piece of evidence. Thanks to you, I've done a lot more reading on the topic than I ever have. Although it has further reinforced my original viewpoint, I now also have a much better understanding of the opposing viewpoints and rationale and also see that the IPCC is not without its own controversy. In the end, we may not agree, but I think we both brought up a lot of good points and I know I've learned a lot from this.
 
For example, Baliunas has been a long outspoken critic while working at the Marshall Institute, which directly received millions of dollars in funding from ExxonMobil and other oil companies over the past 25 years.

This line of thinking around discrediting the opinions' of scientists that received funding from oil companies or other perceived enenmies of the environment is a laughable double-standard. Pratically every group/entity that is handing out grant and research money has an ideology one way or another.

In the environment world, an overwhelming majority of the funding to scientists is coming from entities with an environmental activist agenda. Where is all the press discounting their opinions and studies? When someone dissents from the environmental activist agenda, they are villified in the public and scientific arena. In this discrediting process, the researchers' past or present relationships to non-green groups are the highlighted in neon lights. The lack of accoutability on the flip-side is a scam.

The amount of group-think going on with this issue is frightening. Ironically, it is perpetuated by the same folks who scream about group think on the issue of fighting terrorism. Once again solidifying my belief that every side of every political debate is guilty of the same hypocratic acts. Which is why I laugh at all of them when they get up on their sanctimonious soapbox's while preaching about the sins of the other side.
 
This line of thinking around discrediting the opinions' of scientists that received funding from oil companies or other perceived enenmies of the environment is a laughable double-standard. Pratically every group/entity that is handing out grant and research money has an ideology one way or another.

This research is discredited by misleading and incorrect data points, not necessarily by who authored it. However, in my mind, it's not unfair to question the credentials or background of the authors, regardless of which side of the fence they sit on. You can ignore it if you'd like, but I think it's important to understand their perspective in order to fully grasp the context of what's being presented.

And yes, everybody should be held accountable to the same standards, regardless of viewpoint.
 
Global Warming: The Cold, Hard Facts?
By Timothy Ball

Monday, February 5, 2007

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was one of the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.


What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?

Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification. For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.

No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.

I once received a three page letter that my lawyer defined as libellous, from an academic colleague, saying I had no right to say what I was saying, especially in public lectures. Sadly, my experience is that universities are the most dogmatic and oppressive places in our society. This becomes progressively worse as they receive more and more funding from governments that demand a particular viewpoint.

In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?

Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate. In this case, they also indicate how political the entire Global Warming debate has become. Both underline the lack of or even contradictory nature of the evidence.

I am not alone in this journey against the prevalent myth. Several well-known names have also raised their voices. Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker is one of them. In his latest book, "State of Fear" he takes time to explain, often in surprising detail, the flawed science behind Global Warming and other imagined environmental crises.

Another cry in the wildenerness is Richard Lindzen's. He is an atmospheric physicist and a professor of meteorology at MIT, renowned for his research in dynamic meteorology - especially atmospheric waves. He is also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has held positions at the University of Chicago, Harvard University and MIT. Linzen frequently speaks out against the notion that significant Global Warming is caused by humans. Yet nobody seems to listen.

I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions. The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise. The theory was accepted before testing had started, and effectively became a law.

As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a sceptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.

Meanwhile, politicians are being listened to, even though most of them have no knowledge or understanding of science, especially the science of climate and climate change. Hence, they are in no position to question a policy on climate change when it threatens the entire planet. Moreover, using fear and creating hysteria makes it very difficult to make calm rational decisions about issues needing attention.

Until you have challenged the prevailing wisdom you have no idea how nasty people can be. Until you have re-examined any issue in an attempt to find out all the information, you cannot know how much misinformation exists in the supposed age of information.

I was greatly influenced several years ago by Aaron Wildavsky's book "Yes, but is it true?" The author taught political science at a New York University and realized how science was being influenced by and apparently misused by politics. He gave his graduate students an assignment to pursue the science behind a policy generated by a highly publicised environmental concern. To his and their surprise they found there was little scientific evidence, consensus and justification for the policy. You only realize the extent to which Wildavsky's findings occur when you ask the question he posed. Wildavsky's students did it in the safety of academia and with the excuse that it was an assignment. I have learned it is a difficult question to ask in the real world, however I firmly believe it is the most important question to ask if we are to advance in the right direction.


Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project (www.nrsp.com), is a Victoria-based environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. He can be reached at [email protected]
 
Global Warming: The Cold, Hard Facts?
By Timothy Ball

Monday, February 5, 2007

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was one of the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.


What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?

Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification. For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.

No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.

I once received a three page letter that my lawyer defined as libellous, from an academic colleague, saying I had no right to say what I was saying, especially in public lectures. Sadly, my experience is that universities are the most dogmatic and oppressive places in our society. This becomes progressively worse as they receive more and more funding from governments that demand a particular viewpoint.

In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?

Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate. In this case, they also indicate how political the entire Global Warming debate has become. Both underline the lack of or even contradictory nature of the evidence.

I am not alone in this journey against the prevalent myth. Several well-known names have also raised their voices. Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker is one of them. In his latest book, "State of Fear" he takes time to explain, often in surprising detail, the flawed science behind Global Warming and other imagined environmental crises.

Another cry in the wildenerness is Richard Lindzen's. He is an atmospheric physicist and a professor of meteorology at MIT, renowned for his research in dynamic meteorology - especially atmospheric waves. He is also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has held positions at the University of Chicago, Harvard University and MIT. Linzen frequently speaks out against the notion that significant Global Warming is caused by humans. Yet nobody seems to listen.

I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions. The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise. The theory was accepted before testing had started, and effectively became a law.

As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a sceptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.

Meanwhile, politicians are being listened to, even though most of them have no knowledge or understanding of science, especially the science of climate and climate change. Hence, they are in no position to question a policy on climate change when it threatens the entire planet. Moreover, using fear and creating hysteria makes it very difficult to make calm rational decisions about issues needing attention.

Until you have challenged the prevailing wisdom you have no idea how nasty people can be. Until you have re-examined any issue in an attempt to find out all the information, you cannot know how much misinformation exists in the supposed age of information.

I was greatly influenced several years ago by Aaron Wildavsky's book "Yes, but is it true?" The author taught political science at a New York University and realized how science was being influenced by and apparently misused by politics. He gave his graduate students an assignment to pursue the science behind a policy generated by a highly publicised environmental concern. To his and their surprise they found there was little scientific evidence, consensus and justification for the policy. You only realize the extent to which Wildavsky's findings occur when you ask the question he posed. Wildavsky's students did it in the safety of academia and with the excuse that it was an assignment. I have learned it is a difficult question to ask in the real world, however I firmly believe it is the most important question to ask if we are to advance in the right direction.


Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project (www.nrsp.com), is a Victoria-based environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. He can be reached at [email protected]


Did Timmy have his 8th grade kid write his statement of position? Must've been a first draft...
 
Did Timmy have his 8th grade kid write his statement of position? Must've been a first draft...

LOL

It is something my mother sent to me in an email. She and I had a discussion about global warming this last weekend. She is convinced that whether or not global warming is true the government will find a way to get some money from her to fix the problem. :smile:

As for my position it is pretty much the same as my mother's. I really don't care if global warming is actually happening and I don't want to pay to fix it if it is. If I am lucky, I have ~50 more years and I am pretty sure the planet will be around at least that long.

EDIT..
Fact is if Global warming is a real thing and I did everything in my power to help stop it it may add a micro second of time to the life span of the earth but takes hours or even maybe months of my lifespan and turns it into, washing out tuna fish cans, separating paper from trash, etc etc. I am just not into all that.
 
LOL

It is something my mother sent to me in an email. She and I had a discussion about global warming this last weekend. She is convinced that whether or not global warming is true the government will find a way to get some money from her to fix the problem. :smile:

As for my position it is pretty much the same as my mother's. I really don't care if global warming is actually happening and I don't want to pay to fix it if it is. If I am lucky, I have ~50 more years and I am pretty sure the planet will be around at least that long.

EDIT..
Fact is if Global warming is a real thing and I did everything in my power to help stop it it may add a micro second of time to the life span of the earth but takes hours or even maybe months of my lifespan and turns it into, washing out tuna fish cans, separating paper from trash, etc etc. I am just not into all that.


No problem Steve. You live in up state NY, so the oceans will have to rise a couple hundred feet before you have a problem! j/k :wink: :biggrin:
 
No problem Steve. You live in up state NY, so the oceans will have to rise a couple hundred feet before you have a problem! j/k :wink: :biggrin:


Yeah I used mark to market accounting to borrow against my home as it will be beach front in 10,000 years. Andy Fastow and Auther Anderson helped with the accounting.:biggrin:
 
but I think it's important to understand their perspective in order to fully grasp the context of what's being presented.

And yes, everybody should be held accountable to the same standards, regardless of viewpoint.


I agree entirely!:biggrin: I guess what I was saying is the two sides of this debate are not treated equaly.... one side is greeted with roses and the other with great hostility. In the meteorology/climatology world, taking a position counter to the the ever-popular stance of 'man is the global warming tipping point' is career suicide. This is not due to getting fired, but because the vast majority of available funding for warming/climate studies will not be available to them.

When it comes to global warming, scientists that take a position differing from the 'Man is the reason the earth is warming' crowd are treated like heretics. While the other side is hardly questioned at all regardless of where their funding came from. This form of a free pass is all too common in the environmental debate. Then you got people like Al Gore that have no more knowledge on climatological science(maybe less) than I do yet are treated like heroes because they are vocal proponents of the chic position of the day.

I truly respect the guy for putting so much effort into a cause that he believes in. However, if he was pushing the opposite stance from his current one... he would be largely ignored and certainly not considered a hero.

My opinion, so it's not hiding behind veiled wording:
-The earth IS warming.
-Man is definitely not helping, but we're not the tipping point.
-Meso-weather patterns, orbital shifting (parabolic - circular), solar photon variant cycling are the primary drivers of global warming and cooling.
-We will continue micro-warming/cooling patterns along the meso-warming cycle. Similar to looking at a stocks 5-year moving average as compared to the Weekly chart. This was the mistake during the 70's, when popular opinion was that we would all be living in Igloos in the not too distant future. The inverse is true for recent year's... you look at the chart and say oh sh*t, I need to buy beachfront property in the Appalachian Mountains! As I said in my other post, true linear progression is non-existant in nature. These small micro-cycles are just bobbles.

-Dramatic global warming and cooling has occurred 1000's of times, let's not be so arrogant to think that we can control everything.

-I do strongly believe mankind needs to be cleaner! Global warming is not my reasoning for this.... improving health/quality of life is.

-This is dark, but I also think an On the Beach scenario will change life on Earth loooooooooong before Global Warming takes our coastlines. So if the day comes when China, Russia, and Iran stand up together out in the open.... then I will start worrying about global warming, by warming I mean frying/disintegrating: :cool:
 
Don't go making fun of Canadians! :biggrin: Arshad, stand up for you countrymen!:wink:

Hahaha! :biggrin:

Actually, I have no problem with his position. I'm not entirely convinced that global warming is being caused by human intervention either. What I am convinced of is that we are entering an accelerated global warming phase, and I don't understand the position of those that state that we're not.

As you pointed out, this is a natural process and has occurred hundreds if not thousands of times in the Earth's past. Based on ice core samples measuring atmospheric CO2 concentrations dating back several hundred thousand years, it appears that we may be breaking from historical trends, but what is to say that this is not normal in a more macro picture if we could study millions of years worth of data instead of hundreds of thousands of years? I like your stock market analogy because in my mind it does describe this situation very well, and if anyone is familiar with Elliott Wave Theory, it's not unreasonable to see that there may be a larger, fractal nature to all of this.

Fact is if Global warming is a real thing and I did everything in my power to help stop it it may add a micro second of time to the life span of the earth but takes hours or even maybe months of my lifespan and turns it into, washing out tuna fish cans, separating paper from trash, etc etc. I am just not into all that.

Steve, and that is the real question. Just how much effort and money do we need to put into this to reverse it, and even if we had unlimited resources, could we do anything about it in the first place?

You know I used to be just like you a few years ago. Even the whole garbage recycling thing, I just couldn't be bothered. After all, I ain't no tree hugger. Then I saw how much of my tax dollars were going to shipping our garbage down to Michigan. Once we started recycling (and it really takes zero effort), our garbage went from 4 bags a week down to 1 or 2. When they introduce organic waste collection in the form of green bins here, I expect that to go down even further. For effectively no incremental effort on my part, I like the fact that we may be collectively reducing the costs of getting rid of our garbage and spending my tax dollars on other more relevant things.
 
Steve, and that is the real question. Just how much effort and money do we need to put into this to reverse it, and even if we had unlimited resources, could we do anything about it in the first place?

You know I used to be just like you a few years ago. Even the whole garbage recycling thing, I just couldn't be bothered. After all, I ain't no tree hugger. Then I saw how much of my tax dollars were going to shipping our garbage down to Michigan. Once we started recycling (and it really takes zero effort), our garbage went from 4 bags a week down to 1 or 2. When they introduce organic waste collection in the form of green bins here, I expect that to go down even further. For effectively no incremental effort on my part, I like the fact that we may be collectively reducing the costs of getting rid of our garbage and spending my tax dollars on other more relevant things.

That is just my point, and my mothers too, if I make less trash I want my taxes back not applied elsewhere. I want to be paid for my efforts in dollars and nothing else.


BTW no joke.. I make about 3-5 bags of trash a day out of my primary residence when I am home. I don't return bottles and cans either they go directly in the trash.Here where I live there is no business that picks up trash at the curb. Yard waste is the same way. There is a local, 5 miles away, drop off center where we could take our trash and get rid of it. That is if I wanted to deal with the a-hole that runs the place and the fact the place is only open at the most inconvenient times possible, like 12-3pm... three days a week and 2 hours on Saturday. The guy who runs the place is a trip. He is one of those people that either is totally controlled by his wife or just really happy to abuse a position of control over other people. It is his moment of glory to be able to have the power to f---k with people. He literally takes the time to go through the trash and make sure there is nothing in every bag that needs to be in the recycle bin. He does this even when the line is backed up 10- 20 people. Once again I am just not going to waste an hour of my life trying to get rid of my trash. When getting rid of trash becomes harder, and I am sure it will, I will start to separate my trash into two piles, traceable and non-traceable.

Where we have rental properties the trash companies and the city do not pick up anything but bagged trash. BUT the city will be rip roaring to write tickets at 25 bucks a pop if you have a mattress or tires laying around. I am constantly having large items hauled to the landfill. We have several dumpsters at different locations that cost us thousands of dollars a year to have emptied. Just several years ago it cost NOTHING to get rid of trash. The cost to run the landfills were included in the property taxes. What happened to that money?
 
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