You guys probably know I've talked to a lot of cage builders and pro racers about safety on this car. One thing that rarely comes up on this forum is, that safety in an NSX depends a lot of your height and seating position. The roof is so close to your head that contact is inevitable, and it is a major source of head or neck injury with or without a helmet. That is why I feel a harness over the shoulders provides a level of safety the factory 3 points do not. Another thing is, even if you do a cage or a rollbar, that main hoop needs to be above your head, and in an NSX, it rarely is. Because of the sloping angle of the roofline down and the lack of height, this creates a less than ideal situation. Rarely addressed. Whether you street drive or track your NSX it is critical you control lateral movement of your body, more so than fore and aft. So a seat as low as possible, and belts that limit movement up are very important IMO. I think it is quite easy to get seriouslly injured in a street NSX If you are a taller guy and are within close proximity of the roof. Your head and the roof will most likely be the initial point of contact during an accident where your body is getting tossed around. I am just posting this to make people more aware. You need to be more careful of moving up than forward.
Safety issue few talk about
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
- Start date
What's best in an AC Cobra: lap belt, harness, or nothing
?
?
- Joined
- 19 January 2011
- Messages
- 714
I have done a lot of research about this in the past 5 months, being 6'4" I found a good resource the sites all major governing bodies and manufactures with their findings and actual data about harness and 3 pts and harness in roll over type situations:
http://www.7machine.com/car/86399.html
Long story short. the major cause of injury in a roll over accident is your head striking the side window B pillar an/or full or partial ejections. All studies concluded that restraining the driver is most important in all situations. actual crushing of the roof counted directly for a perportionally small case of injury as discribed. Now obviously nothing will ever be 100% safe but safety is a numbers game in the end. I have a few other links ill post when i can get to them.
3pt and airbags no cage--- Good
6pt harness, no airbags, harnessbar, HANS---- Better
6pt harness, roll cage, HANS, no airbags--- Best
Personally I have a recaro HANS seat with lateral halo, HANS neck device, 6pt non-ASM harness, harness bar, removed airbags, seat bottom touching the floor. Cage likely coming soon.
Then you start talking fire safty mixed with extremity restraint and it starts to get muddled. most restraint systems (window nets, arm cords) impede drivers trying to exit a burning vehicle.
http://www.7machine.com/car/86399.html
Long story short. the major cause of injury in a roll over accident is your head striking the side window B pillar an/or full or partial ejections. All studies concluded that restraining the driver is most important in all situations. actual crushing of the roof counted directly for a perportionally small case of injury as discribed. Now obviously nothing will ever be 100% safe but safety is a numbers game in the end. I have a few other links ill post when i can get to them.
3pt and airbags no cage--- Good
6pt harness, no airbags, harnessbar, HANS---- Better
6pt harness, roll cage, HANS, no airbags--- Best
Personally I have a recaro HANS seat with lateral halo, HANS neck device, 6pt non-ASM harness, harness bar, removed airbags, seat bottom touching the floor. Cage likely coming soon.
Then you start talking fire safty mixed with extremity restraint and it starts to get muddled. most restraint systems (window nets, arm cords) impede drivers trying to exit a burning vehicle.
Last edited:
The roll hoop in original cobras were 1' lower than the drivers head.
I can't seem to find very many nsx rollover pictures but the ones I have found show the roof fairly in tact. The thick and short B-pillars are a good design for strength.
There are many cars with not much headroom for drivers especially with helmets. And many high roofed tin cans crunch down significantly in a rollover. Not everyone puts cages or rollbars in their track cars or toys
0.02
Last edited:
I've also done a ton of research the above is correct, making contact with the roof is not the primary concern, making contact with the A pillar is.
Turbo, I've read so many of your posts and you see to be constantly going back and forth, over at least the past year or 2, over whether worrying about the roof crushing in, and being able to duck out of the way of that, is worth worrying about. The reality is in a roll the g forces will be strong enough that you cannot duck out of the way of a crushed roof. There is tons of research from OEMs to back that up. The fact is as quoted above, the far bigger concern is making contact with the A pillar and not the roof. There is also tons of research to back that up.
With that said I agree that mounting the seat low is important, but not avoid contact with the roof. It's the A pillar you need to worry about.
They changed something in the Matrix?!?
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/139843-Some-great-safety-info?highlight=roll+cage
I kid, I Kid....but we have been here before
.Cliffs Notes:
- Much more likely to hit something vs. roll the car
- Harnesses proven better in nearly all situations regardless
- Some caution if installing a full cage on a car that's street drive sans helmet for reasons mentioned above (head + DOM tubing = bad day).
Last edited:
I think that is common knowledge by now, and I've stated it many times too. You aren't going to duck from anything.
A pillar? The A pillar is nowhere near my head. How do you figure that's what we need to worry about?
Yes the A pillar is the weakest link in a T compared to a coupe in a roll over.
But as to no air bag is always better with aftermarket belts, I think this needs to be clarified a bit more even with HANs neck support (or not). Even with a helmet, wouldn't you want your face/forward motion - even with HANS device to be further protected with an air bag than without? We are not talking about a totally track car where the air bag may cause more of an issue. Recall the discussion of the Integra driver and his girlfriend ...........
But as to no air bag is always better with aftermarket belts, I think this needs to be clarified a bit more even with HANs neck support (or not). Even with a helmet, wouldn't you want your face/forward motion - even with HANS device to be further protected with an air bag than without? We are not talking about a totally track car where the air bag may cause more of an issue. Recall the discussion of the Integra driver and his girlfriend ...........
Billy so the cobra had a very low rollbar. To me that means it was a poor design. A rollbar lower than your head can't possibly be good. The cage builders tell me it is absolutely not good.
Yes, both the A and B are strong in an nsx, stronger in the targa cars. But I've seen at least one caved in severely. Here is a picture of one that rolled and is not terrible but... It's definitely caved some.
Anyway I was just sharing information with the forum on what cage guys told me. That its not a good thing that any cage/ rollbar in an NSX winds up below the head because there is a low roof. While a more standard car may have a "tin" roof, a higher roof allows the main hoop to be built higher up and therein lies a huge advantage.
- - - Updated - - -
I was told the airbag will snap your neck back when wearing a helmet. Logically I am not sure why. If it absorbs the impact of a head, why wouldn't it absorb the impact of a head in a helmet.
Yes, both the A and B are strong in an nsx, stronger in the targa cars. But I've seen at least one caved in severely. Here is a picture of one that rolled and is not terrible but... It's definitely caved some.
Anyway I was just sharing information with the forum on what cage guys told me. That its not a good thing that any cage/ rollbar in an NSX winds up below the head because there is a low roof. While a more standard car may have a "tin" roof, a higher roof allows the main hoop to be built higher up and therein lies a huge advantage.
- - - Updated - - -
I was told the airbag will snap your neck back when wearing a helmet. Logically I am not sure why. If it absorbs the impact of a head, why wouldn't it absorb the impact of a head in a helmet.
Last edited:
I should have said door frame.
Well the NSX has no real door frame. You probably mean the roof. Or the B pillar. Which is not really different from what I was saying in the first post. I think head contact with ANYTHING is bad. The closest point for me is directly above, you are pointing more to the side. That's really the difference. "Door frame" applies in more standard cars where there is an actual frame the side glass goes into. The NSX has a door and a frameless side window that just tucks in tight to the side of (in my case) the targa top.
At one point it was thought safer to be ejected from the car than to be strapped to it when the car rolls over. Safety in motorsports has been pretty piss poor until fairly recently.
If you don't drive your car to the point of a likely chance of wrecking or flipping it, then you probably wouldn't need to worry about anything. If you are looking to improve your driving and you're "that fast" where you might make a mistake at a speed where you could seriously get hurt, then look into getting a different car with a proper roll cage, seat, harness, hans, etc...
It's not necessarily right, but I've driven and raced many cars that were outright unsafe. But I was willing to risk the potential for the lack of safety based on what I viewed my talent levels were at and how far I was willing to push the car. I might have backed off and not attempted passes and have been less aggressive and 'risky' in racing if the car was that unsafe, or likewise, would push the car harder and higher risks if I viewed it as safer. I've also seen many VERY fast time attack and street cars that are not safe atall.
You need to look into yourself and analyze where you're at from a speed/talent/car/safety standpoint and make a decision based on what you're willing to risk and where you're at as a driver.
- - - Updated - - -
I'll have to go back through some pictures but I thought there was a substantial 'frame' or 'bar' in the door...
Not to get too far off topic but the nsx, and every hard top car ever made, has a door frame. It's the part of the chassis that frames the door opening.
Billy I would worry a whole lot less if I had your driving skill, which is probably the biggest safety item anyone can have. And my worry isn't so much myself, but someone else losing it in front of me... spilled fluid... etc. On the straights of most tracks you are over 100 MPH, in some 140 or so (or in your case a lot more than that even). That IMO is pretty much beyond the car's standard safety equipment design. I do understand its all relative and all that. But it is better for me to investigate and take precautions than be sorry. I guess I am just more careful or fearful than some others may be. I already coast down most straights. LOL... It's not like I am learning anything there anyway.
- - - Updated - - -
OK well my car is a targa, I am not sure where the door frame would be for my head to make contact with... but we are just quibbling over a word now, I get what you are trying to say. Yes, most head injury is the result of the head (without a helmet) coming into contact with the side glass/window frame/Door frame.
The point of my original post still stands. That point is:
A car with a higher roof would allow the cage to go well above your head and helmet, and that is preffered by a HUGE margin over a bar that is below your head. We talk so much about the whole harness thing.... "Harness must have a cage to avoid neck injury" but there is this issue in the NSX that for a tall guy, if the roof caves it may well have 3-4 inches without so much as even making contact with the rollbar yet. If your helmet is grazing the roof already, that 3-4 inches may not be too good. We just always talk about a cage/rollbar in an nsx as if it is like in an M3 or an Evo or a Mustang, something with a big gap between your helmet and roof. And it just isn't the case.
I do still believe a harness is a world safer than a 3 point belt. Sometimes we cite instances of death when a guy had removed an airbag and installed a harness. I think those people would have been dead anyway. Most of your accidents will be ones where a harness, a HANS (HNR) and a helmet will cover you 70-80% of the way. A 3 point is a shitty belt. An airbag helps it a lot in a head-on collision. Anything else, your body flops around like a ragdoll compared to a proper harness.
- - - Updated - - -
OK well my car is a targa, I am not sure where the door frame would be for my head to make contact with... but we are just quibbling over a word now, I get what you are trying to say. Yes, most head injury is the result of the head (without a helmet) coming into contact with the side glass/window frame/Door frame.
The point of my original post still stands. That point is:
A car with a higher roof would allow the cage to go well above your head and helmet, and that is preffered by a HUGE margin over a bar that is below your head. We talk so much about the whole harness thing.... "Harness must have a cage to avoid neck injury" but there is this issue in the NSX that for a tall guy, if the roof caves it may well have 3-4 inches without so much as even making contact with the rollbar yet. If your helmet is grazing the roof already, that 3-4 inches may not be too good. We just always talk about a cage/rollbar in an nsx as if it is like in an M3 or an Evo or a Mustang, something with a big gap between your helmet and roof. And it just isn't the case.
I do still believe a harness is a world safer than a 3 point belt. Sometimes we cite instances of death when a guy had removed an airbag and installed a harness. I think those people would have been dead anyway. Most of your accidents will be ones where a harness, a HANS (HNR) and a helmet will cover you 70-80% of the way. A 3 point is a shitty belt. An airbag helps it a lot in a head-on collision. Anything else, your body flops around like a ragdoll compared to a proper harness.
'Simpson Racing Equipment' had to change their name from 'Simpson Safety Equipment' due to debates like this in court. Sounds to me like you are talking yourself off the track. If my wife had her way I'd be rapped in bubble wrap everytime I leave the house. I've been tracking cars, motorcycles, skis, boats etc for over 30 years. I've lost friends out there and I've also known when it's time for me to pause and take a break from it. I am also a Cat 1 competitive cyclist which is far more dangerous and I bare the scars to prove my point. No airbag there either btw.
There is no such thing as a 'safe' setup. Its all a compromise. The track is a calculated risk that we choose to take willingly everytime we enter the gates and sign the waiver.
If you want to increase your odds of survival on the track, park your targa and buy a dedicated race car with every safety option built into the design. When I set out looking for an NSX, I was only interested in a coupe because of its weight savings and structural integrity. Maybe you need to start looking in that direction. Or go with the bubble wrap option...:tongue:
my .00002
There is no such thing as a 'safe' setup. Its all a compromise. The track is a calculated risk that we choose to take willingly everytime we enter the gates and sign the waiver.
If you want to increase your odds of survival on the track, park your targa and buy a dedicated race car with every safety option built into the design. When I set out looking for an NSX, I was only interested in a coupe because of its weight savings and structural integrity. Maybe you need to start looking in that direction. Or go with the bubble wrap option...:tongue:
my .00002
This thread really went off on a tangent. The point was to just relay information from my cage builder to the forum:
It's not good that the rollbar will be below your head. Nothing can be done about it, but it is something that unfortunately is there. It is not a problem in most other cars.
It's not good that the rollbar will be below your head. Nothing can be done about it, but it is something that unfortunately is there. It is not a problem in most other cars.
- Joined
- 19 January 2011
- Messages
- 714
I know there are a few NSX race cars out there with a lowered floor pan to accommodate the head room issue. its again sort of a numbers game; To me, it seems you're much more likely to go off track over bumps and rocks than to flip and land with all the weight on the roof: example.
<object height="315" width="420">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/orVBkI0m9ZY?hl=en_US&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="315" width="420"></object>
agreed. its a bummer that NSX were not really made for tall people at all
<object height="315" width="420">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/orVBkI0m9ZY?hl=en_US&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="315" width="420"></object>
agreed. its a bummer that NSX were not really made for tall people at all
Last edited:
Audi R8, Ford GT, Gallardo, pretty much all Ferraris, BMW Z cars, Mazda RX8, I can go on and on all have the same problem with headroom.
I agree with 1k2go's post.
Fwiw I have a really long torso do most cars including racecars are close to my head or have the top of cages/bars at or below my head.
In the fxmd nsx we bolted the seat to the floor with no sliding rails and I don't have any padding for my butt. This gives me enough clearance to make the cage work well (and slouching in the car).
0.02
Dave, if you really want the protection of a roll cage, and we all agree the NSX is not ideally designed as is, there is a solution.
One of our local boy racers, who did indeed make his NSX a track only use, cut the floor pan and lowered and welded his seat by about 2-3" (mostly the rear half of the seat shows) to have more head room and a roll cage.
Perhaps not your cup of tea if you want to continue to pimp the underside of your silver garage queen with reflecting mirrors :tongue:
One of our local boy racers, who did indeed make his NSX a track only use, cut the floor pan and lowered and welded his seat by about 2-3" (mostly the rear half of the seat shows) to have more head room and a roll cage.
Perhaps not your cup of tea if you want to continue to pimp the underside of your silver garage queen with reflecting mirrors :tongue:
It's because the helmet thickness makes u close to the "explosion" of the airbag where there is greater energy near the center.
Follow moi?
I was told that this theory was debunked several years and moons ago ................ check with Ted [aka on Prime 92 white 0650] who has done quite extensive research on this. He now occasionally visits Prime.
Yes it would be ok. And I believe Ted made that comment on Prime a few months ago to my same concern.
Similar threads
