Rumored: Mini NSX

I would be interested in a "mini NSX" as there is a Grand Canyon scale hole in the range between the CRZ and the new NSX. It would have to have most of the 21st century features of the new NSX (some sort of regenerative electric power), but cost in the 4-5 million Yen ball park.
The absence of an Integra Type R or S2000 size and style of car is something that Honda must address within the next few years if they are to attract the premium additional car enthusiast.
Honda's offerings since the demise of the Integra Type R and S2000 just don't do it for me - they are too close to their vanilla stablemates (and I couldn't fit comfortably in an S2000).
I have a grave fear that the new NSX will be priced too far out of reach for many, me included......
 
This is actually the new mini NSX.

smartnsx.jpg
 
While the stillborn, V-10-powered NSX was being developed, Honda was also working on a related and obscure project referred to internally as the Small NSX. At the time it was just one of several advanced R&D ideas sitting in the design room. Then the financial crisis hit, causing Honda to kill the NSX and shelve all other sports car projects. But Honda has since rebounded, and as we know, the NSX has been reborn as an all-wheel drive hybrid. Now we're hearing the Small NSX may be back on the drawing board as well.

While the words "Small NSX" may conjure up visions of a successor to the S2000, our inside source tells us this is not the case, and that it will look much like a shrunken version of the big-boy NSX, something along the lines of the car you see in this artist's impression. Our source also tells us that like the NSX, it will be equipped with a version of Honda's SH-AWD system.

Acura-NSX-Concept
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Power will likely be provided by a turbocharged direct-injection engine. Honda currently has a number of engines that could fit the bill, including the 3.5-liter V-6, 2.4-liter I-4, and 2.0-liter I-4 already offered in several of its American-market products. Given Honda's America-focused development, overseas engines such as its 660cc and 1.0-liter mills are unlikely to be considered. Of the possible three, the 2.4-liter is the most likely candidate. There's also the possibility that it will be fitted with some kind of hybrid drivetrain.

Acura-NSX-Concept
Click to view Gallery
Our source also tells us the Small NSX will make use of a number of parts from the NSX to help recoup development costs. Given that both cars will be developed at Honda of America's R&D center in Ohio (we're told that in July Honda HQ assigned several of its top test drivers and engineers to the facility for a five-year stint), it's a logical move. The NSX remains on track to return for the 2015 model year. If it's indeed green-lit, the Small NSX could follow a year or two afterward, before the drivers and engineers head home in 2017. Don't expect it to be a bargain sports car, however. Given the amount of DNA it's likely to share with the NSX, the Small NSX would likely cost between $50,000 and $60,000.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/...ni_acura_nsx_back_on_the_table/#ixzz27gRhovhf
 
In addition to the NSX, the next-generation super sports model, Honda will launch a new open-top sports car with strong vehicles dynamics which will go on sale in Japan 2014, as one of the six new mini-vehicle models.

source: Honda press conference 2012

Is this referred to the mini NSX?
 
So is it going to be like a suped up Honda BEAT??? Thats what I think of when I hear Mini-NSX
 
I like it....plus, if it has SH-AWD instead of a hybrid drivetrain, I'd personally be more willing to buy it.

I'm not a hybrid fan.
 
^ Hybrids can be a good thing assuming its like the 918 and the Enzo replacement. CR-Z was a half assed effort imo
You're quoting cars that are several times more expensive than what I propose for Honda; A $25k car.

Hybrids were a good stop gap and great for marketing to the tree huggers. Perhaps the technology (namely batteries) will improve...but Honda needs to be a competitive car for today. Not for 10 years from now.

The new Porsche Cayenne Diesel gets better mpg than it's Hybrid sister but let me present to you a real life example from someone who put their money where their mouth was. I was recently looking for a daily driver commuter replacement. The top contenders were the following.

2010 BMW 335d (Yes, that's a diesel)
2012 Toyota Prius
2012 Honda CRZ
2013 Subaru BRZ
2013 Mazda 3 and/or MS3
some others...

BMW was just too expensive for long term ownership. The Prius was so boring I feared falling asleep behind the wheel and/or killing myself. MX-5, BRZ, MS3, were good contenders. The Civic or anything Honda currently has, except the CRZ, did not make it onto the list.

The Honda CRZ combined peak output of 122 bhp (only 12hp from electric assistance), gets 31-39mpg, weights ~2700lbs. However, the car drives like it weights 4000lbs and I would struggle to call it "sporty" by any means (that's putting it nicely). Seriously... Did Honda think that putting a 12hp electric motor would drum up enough sales from the tree huggers?? Give me a break...Go buy a K&N Filter instead!

The Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S is at 200hp (170ish whp), i'm current getting 28-34mpg, weights ~2700lbs BUT A TON MORE FUN and a very well executed platform. It's simple, not complicated, get down to the basic fundamentals of engineering a car that puts a smile on owners faces everytime. The demand proves this. The backorder list is still super long. The markups are still ridiculous and aftermarket vendors are having a field day releasing after market parts for it. Again, it kills me that this wasn't Honda who built this car :frown:

If you follow Honda's Facebook page they're still talking this same nonsense. UGH!
 
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^ seriously. I get 28mpg in the mazdaspeed and I don't baby it. I fail to see why anyone would pay a premium for a hybrid like the crz when you can buy a skyactive Mazda3 in hatch form wih a 6spd and get useable space, cheaper cost and better fuel economy (burns 87 octane also so cheaper gas in general).

Hybrids just don't always make sense.
 
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You're quoting cars that are several times more expensive than what I propose for Honda; A $25k car.

Hybrids were a good stop gap and great for marketing to the tree huggers. Perhaps the technology (namely batteries) will improve...but Honda needs to be a competitive car for today. Not for 10 years from now.

The new Porsche Cayenne Diesel gets better mpg than it's Hybrid sister but let me present to you a real life example from someone who put their money where their mouth was. I was recently looking for a daily driver commuter replacement. The top contenders were the following.

2010 BMW 335d (Yes, that's a diesel)
2012 Toyota Prius
2012 Honda CRZ
2013 Subaru BRZ
2013 Mazda 3 and/or MS3
some others...

BMW was just too expensive for long term ownership. The Prius was so boring I feared falling asleep behind the wheel and/or killing myself. MX-5, BRZ, MS3, were good contenders. The Civic or anything Honda currently has, except the CRZ, did not make it onto the list.

The Honda CRZ combined peak output of 122 bhp (only 12hp from electric assistance), gets 31-39mpg, weights ~2700lbs. However, the car drives like it weights 4000lbs and I would struggle to call it "sporty" by any means (that's putting it nicely). Seriously... Did Honda think that putting a 12hp electric motor would drum up enough sales from the tree huggers?? Give me a break...Go buy a K&N Filter instead!

The Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S is at 200hp (170ish whp), i'm current getting 28-34mpg, weights ~2700lbs BUT A TON MORE FUN and a very well executed platform. It's simple, not complicated, get down to the basic fundamentals of engineering a car that puts a smile on owners faces everytime. The demand proves this. The backorder list is still super long. The markups are still ridiculous and aftermarket vendors are having a field day releasing after market parts for it. Again, it kills me that this wasn't Honda who built this car :frown:

If you follow Honda's Facebook page they're still talking this same nonsense. UGH!

Honda is looking to change the game. They want to actually make a hybrid that is fun to drive and performance oriented. Their targets apparently are 3 second 0 60 and competitiveness with the R8, Mp4-12c and 458... I would reserve judgement until you see clearer specs and then an actual on the road demonstration.

You cannot deny hybrids and simply write it off when every major car company are introducing electric supplements to their drivetrains.

The CRV was an experiment that did not yield much success because of the direction it took. The biggest issue was power. It needed to have atleast 175 hp. However, I simply would not consider it because of form factor, no matter how fast it was anyways. I have a feeling that they will garner a cult following in the used car market eventually though.
 
The Prius was so boring I feared falling asleep behind the wheel and/or killing myself.

You just need to push it harder. I wasn't bored passing a new Mini Cooper S on our 2.1mile CMP track. Braking was on par with a new Corvette C6 and Mustang GT along with corner entry and exit speeds. But, the battery was flat after two laps, and I melted (not chunked) the tread blocks on the 185-width OEM Eco Yokohamas.

Everyone was impressed and wanted me to bring it back with some R-compounds :smile:. Then, yes, I nearly fell asleep on the drive home.

Hybrids are the future. Hub-driven electric motors like the ones that will be commercially available (Protean) to normal folks like ourselves late next year will allow any vehicle to become a hybrid.

Hybrids aren't just for tree-huggers. Anyone that truly appreciates autos has to be impressed with the potential performance from them too. Torque-vectoring can be done with complex electronic diffs ala BMW (and then an extra 400lbs for the AWD setup), but this does nothing to help the economy that also comes with a hybrid powertrain.

Congrats on the BRZ:smile: I drove a local FR-S while I was waiting for my free Prius oil change and liked it!

Dave
 
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Honda is looking to change the game. They want to actually make a hybrid that is fun to drive and performance oriented. Their targets apparently are 3 second 0 60 and competitiveness with the R8, Mp4-12c and 458... I would reserve judgement until you see clearer specs and then an actual on the road demonstration.

You cannot deny hybrids and simply write it off when every major car company are introducing electric supplements to their drivetrains.

The CRV was an experiment that did not yield much success because of the direction it took. The biggest issue was power. It needed to have atleast 175 hp. However, I simply would not consider it because of form factor, no matter how fast it was anyways. I have a feeling that they will garner a cult following in the used car market eventually though.

The fact is Honda has done a lousy job changing the game. They produce the most mediocre hybrids in the marketplace. The FCX Clarity had some promise but who knows where that program has gone. I feel hybrids have a place in today's market for commuter cars but given limitations of today's available technology it has no place in a sports car. The hybrid race cars that BMW and Toyota are campaigning now are very interesting and perhaps they will yield a net gain in efficiency w/o a net loss in fun, but that technology is not ready now or to where I will see it in the next 2-3yrs. Perhaps 6,7-10yrs perhaps.

You just need to push it harder. I wasn't bored passing a new Mini Cooper S on our 2.1mile CMP track. Braking was on par with a new Corvette C6 and Mustang GT along with corner entry and exit speeds. But, the battery was flat after two laps, and I melted (not chunked) the tread blocks on the 185-width OEM Eco Yokohamas.

Everyone was impressed and wanted me to bring it back with some R-compounds :smile:. Then, yes, I nearly fell asleep on the drive home.

Hybrids are the future. Hub-driven electric motors like the ones that will be commercially available (Protean) to normal folks like ourselves late next year will allow any vehicle to become a hybrid.

Hybrids aren't just for tree-huggers. Anyone that truly appreciates autos has to be impressed with the potential performance from them too. Torque-vectoring can be done with complex electronic diffs ala BMW (and then an extra 400lbs for the AWD setup), but this does nothing to help the economy that also comes with a hybrid powertrain.

Congrats on the BRZ:smile: I drove a local FR-S while I was waiting for my free Prius oil change and liked it!

Dave
I would have loved to see you smoke those cars in the Prius!!! That would have been a blast. The Prius has it's advantages (great mpg, seating for 4-5 comfortably, enough space for my surfboard!!) but I can't say it's nearly as much fun as a proper lightweight sportscar which is what we're all discussing here. I'm sure it can be fast too as you've demonstrated but at that point and if driven that way what kind of mpg are you really getting?

I'm not anti-technology. In fact, I am mesmerized by Toyota's Automatic Trans in the BRZ. It's friggin brilliant and i'm well aware that it's the shifting algorithms that makes it so. I'm simply being economically practical and stating a hybrid system has no place in today's lightweight, inexpensive, "Sports" car. It's simply not ready if it'll ever be for that matter. Torque Vectoring ... yum!

Diesel engines from Audi, VW, Porsche, BMW are making big strides into having engines with massive torque but still achieve 30-40+ mpg achieved thru equally as nutty 7,8,9 spd transmissions. The Mazda Skyactive program is also worth watching. They're implementing a lightweight chassis strategy and high efficiency engines but can still produce a somewhat fun driving car that is far less complicated than a hybrid and therefore a net economic savings in ownership costs.

I'm torn with my feelings on this because I'd love to see hybrid technology progress in development especially improvements in energy storage devices but i'm also practical. All I'm saying is.. a Honda Hybrid system has no place in this baby NSX offering if they expect to send to market a S2000 or a proper CRX/Prelude replacement in the near term. I'll reserve judgement and see what they come up with for the NSX2.0 but i'm sure that will be an R&D exercise of sorts and allow for a more sophisticated/exotic design.
 
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All I'm saying is.. a Honda Hybrid system has no place in this baby NSX offering if they expect to send to market a S2000 or a proper CRX/Prelude replacement in the near term. I'll reserve judgement and see what they come up with for the NSX2.0 but i'm sure that will be an R&D exercise of sorts and allow for a more sophisticated/exotic design.

All I'm saying is - If Toyota can sell a cheap $20k hybrid vehicle, then I'd expect Honda to use hybrid technology to increase performance in a $70k mini NSX too.

I mean, who's kidding who? The NSX 2.0 as rumored most everywhere is going to cost at least $150k. I'd expect a mini NSX to come in at $70k and NOT be some S2000 replacement.

We'll see in a couple of years. It's kinda moot point for me anyways even at $60k. I'd rather make my own full electric performance car from scratch for that $ just to have something unique.

Dave
 
All I'm saying is - If Toyota can sell a cheap $20k hybrid vehicle, then I'd expect Honda to use hybrid technology to increase performance in a $70k mini NSX too.

I mean, who's kidding who? The NSX 2.0 as rumored most everywhere is going to cost at least $150k. I'd expect a mini NSX to come in at $70k and NOT be some S2000 replacement.

We'll see in a couple of years. It's kinda moot point for me anyways even at $60k. I'd rather make my own full electric performance car from scratch for that $ just to have something unique.

Dave
Unfortunately for this thread my original argument was whether or not Honda should sell a $60k sportscar vs. a $25k sportscar. I still have trouble justifying the business case, in today's market, for a $60k sportscar Hybrid or not Hybrid.

oh well, I guess that's why I don't make the big bucks!!

(if you build your own, I want one!!!)
 
^ seriously. I get 28mpg in the mazdaspeed and I don't baby it. I fail to see why anyone would pay a premium for a hybrid like the crz when you can buy a skyactive Mazda3 in hatch form wih a 6spd and get useable space, cheaper cost and better fuel economy (burns 87 octane also so cheaper gas in general).

Hybrids just don't always make sense.

I always thought hybrids were about less emissions, not more MPG. :confused:
 
I always thought hybrids were about less emissions, not more MPG. :confused:

It's about building a bridge to a new frontier. The idea is that we must extract maximum use out of each ounce/cc of fuel and the industry believes that introducing electric motors is a logical direction if battery technology progresses.

So far hybrids have come in the form of economy-tiers that may be worth more as political badges, but the industry as a whole is moving towards a more passionate use of that tech which will enhance performance and not just efficiency. I think this is the biggest hurdle for hybrid tech, is overcoming the image factor.

The fact is Honda has done a lousy job changing the game. They produce the most mediocre hybrids in the marketplace. The FCX Clarity had some promise but who knows where that program has gone. I feel hybrids have a place in today's market for commuter cars but given limitations of today's available technology it has no place in a sports car. The hybrid race cars that BMW and Toyota are campaigning now are very interesting and perhaps they will yield a net gain in efficiency w/o a net loss in fun, but that technology is not ready now or to where I will see it in the next 2-3yrs. Perhaps 6,7-10yrs perhaps.

Again, Honda has been experimenting and it may not have seemed successful for them because they were outsold by the Prius, but that does not mean they failed. I am sure they have learned a lot about hybrid tech over the years. You may not like the CRZ or Insight (I don't either), but there is still a market for them that has a loyal following. This is because Honda is good about encompassing their special "feel" for their cars as a whole package. When you drive a nice Honda and fully feel the motor and tranny through the revs while in the cockpit, it does convey a sensation that is more refined than the casual car that is offered by others. I myself have only noticed this after driving so many different cars in the most recent years.

I know you are a big fan of the BR-Z/FR-S, but the quality and feeling it exudes is not on par with what Honda generally offers. The 200 HP ILX will give the rear wheel drive sports car a run for its money in the performance arena and it has better build quality while being in the same pricing range. The cheaper Civic Si can compete too if you can put up with the lesser build quality compared to the ILX. Mazda, Ford and VW have comparable offerings that just does not compete well as a whole package IMO. Also, I would put more faith in Honda's K series or F series vs Subaru's FA series as far performance and reliability are concerned. Honda already mastered the 4 cylinder arena 10 years ago and they are on their way to mastering the V6 it seems. So electric motors would be the next logical step.

I do agree with you about the skepticism of the "mini" NSX using hybrid tech also. It would be smarter for them to use turbo power or a very efficient V6 in a lighter chassis/platform that still resembles or conveys the NSX design without the emotors to test alternative or multiple markets. Either that or use very minimal emotor tech, but that might end up like the CR-Z...

However, I personally would not mind a 2800 lb NSX powered by a 350ish hp DOHC V6 with cylinder deactivation like the new Accord to help squeeze 35+ mpg on the hwy and maybe KERS burst :smile: I would consider paying $50-60K if the exterior and interior of said car were as refined as the first generation. Then let the big boy $100K+ NSX have the 400-500 hp with the new SH-AWD compete with the likes of Ferrari and McLaren.
 
N-Spec, with all due respect have you driven a new Honda lately or rather some of the other competing brands? I've owned and continue own several Hondas. Outside of the NSX sitting in my driveway is a 2003 Odyssey, 2004 Civic, 2008 CRV, and a 2009 Pilot. I've also had the opportunity to drive several 2011-2013 new models of Hondas and Acuras before they become available. This includes the CRZ on a rather spirited canyon drive. Trust me... they are offering nothing special and you can see why this breaks my heart.

Now when we're talking about motorcycles... they still have a clear edge on their CBRs. That engine and chassis is butter smooth compared to the competition.
 
N-Spec, with all due respect have you driven a new Honda lately or rather some of the other competing brands? I've owned and continue own several Hondas. Outside of the NSX sitting in my driveway is a 2003 Odyssey, 2004 Civic, 2008 CRV, and a 2009 Pilot. I've also had the opportunity to drive several 2011-2013 new models of Hondas and Acuras before they become available. This includes the CRZ on a rather spirited canyon drive. Trust me... they are offering nothing special and you can see why this breaks my heart.

Now when we're talking about motorcycles... they still have a clear edge on their CBRs. That engine and chassis is butter smooth compared to the competition.

Yes I agree they build excellent motorcycles, but I think that Yamaha has them beat in styling whereas Honda beats them in engineering and ergonomics.

I have never been a huge Honda fan, or a die hard fan of any brand. I try to recognize all brands for their pros and cons. I am just noting that Honda seems to consistently deliver in the engine and interior department, which are vital to me besides exterior stance. I think that since you have been a fan or loyal costumer for so long, you have built certain expectations or comfort zones. Since Honda has made some radical departures, this has startled you and perhaps many other loyal fans because people in general do not like change. I welcome the radical changes if they are executed nicely. The biggest goofs I have seen Honda make recently besides sacrificing revs for more low end power (this is a whole other topic, because they seemingly stopped making sports cars until the arrival of the this imminent NSX) would be the current gen TL, Civic and CR-Z:

*The TL had severe exterior issues with awkward details for design but a beautifully sculpted interior. They fixed it slightly with the refresh, but the cookie cutout details are still forced. It does look much better than the first attempt tho and it is an excellent sedan

*The Civic has interior downgrades for this gen it appears because they simplified too much but the exterior got better IMO. Let's see if Honda refreshes the interior and push the engine harder in the near future...

*The CR-Z simply lacked power - this is the car that needed a 8k-9k rev limit to make it really fun. The interior and exterior are nicely done. I am just not a fan of the hatchback shape.

Other than those three, the TSX, ILX, Accord, and even CR-V have evolved nicely IMO. I do like the ILX - the better build quality of the interior made me like it better than the new SI. I like the previous gen Civic SI overall better than the current gen but the extra torque is nice even tho I miss the higher revs. The CR-Z was ok to drive, but the looks did nothing for me and the rear visibility was horrible. The 9th gen Accord is in fact better than the 8th gen overall, almost as good as the 7th gen IMO. The new TL and TSX were nice to drive. I prefer the TSX overall over the TL, but the TL is clearly the higher tier car. This would be the sedan of choice for me right now if I had to choose between the TSX, TL or RL. I really don't care for too much for the other models not mentioned because I generally do not favor larger vehicles. The RSX was pretty good overall, too bad they axed it. It would have evolved nicely I think.

Out of all of these cars mentioned, none of them really appeal to me as the winner when judging the exterior is concerned because none of them are packaged as true sports cars like the NSX. Each had their own neat little design elements that I like tho. However most of Honda's interiors are top notch, especially when compared to the competition. That is huge to me, because I spend 90% of my time with the car in it.

-Hyundai is coming up in the design department, but their steering wheels are usually ugly and the Genesis simply has an ugly interior compared to their other lineup. KIA seems to be cleaner and more energetic with their designs IMO

-Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus - nothing special about their interior designs. I still don't get why people make these claims that they are the best. Perhaps they are easily seduced by fancy/gimmicky gadgets or expensive price/materials used. Mercedes seem to be the least sophisticated to me, along with Lexus in general. BMW may be the winner here

-VW and Mazda seem to have the same caliber of interior design but I still prefer Honda overall.

-Ford, Dodge, Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi and GM seem to be least appealing to me for interiors, but the American brands seem to be slowly getting better

If you really take the time to notice all of the styling and function for each company's interior, you will notice that Honda seems to deliver the most sculpted, artistic and ergonomic forms. Audi has these elemental shapes that are cute with the circles and filleted boxes, but it's not beautiful IMO. BMW has far too many trapezoids going on, but they are like Honda when it comes to hierarchy and sculpting. The rest of the bunch are just too flat or smooth without much articulation. I have spent a long time studying interiors, and these are my observations.

The TL and TSX currently earn highest remarks for interior design IMO even though their button layout is overly complicated. This was remedied for the ILX which is why I like it as a compact 4 cylinder daily beater type of car. It has the Acura design flare but the Honda simplicity and ergonomics. They need to find this balance for the next TL and TSX's interior. I definitely expect to be wowed with the new NSX's interior and I have a feeling that I won't be disappointed...
 
Hmm... totally thought this thread was about the Suzuki Cappuccino NSX.

suzuki-cappuccino-honda-nsx-replica.jpg
 
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