RIP Hostess.

There was an excellent article on this Hostess debacle in one of the last few Fortune magazines that came out.

Though the unions- if I remember correctly there were 9- were a larger part of the company's downfall- recent management and 'consultants' that were brought in to help turn the company around appeared to be looting the company nearly as badly as the unions.

While that is their right- it sure doesn't make for good talking points when negotiating with labor.

Bottom line though-

I'm still flabbergasted that these labor folks are so shortsighted as to refuse real world financial decisions when the alternative ultimately cost them all their jobs. :eek:
 
Hostess had ~$2.5b in revenue FY2011. ~$1b of expenses was employee pensions. The issue with the bottom line was not executive salaries.

Pensions? What's wrong with good old 401K plans like mere mortals have?

-J
 
Let's not forget Funny Bones:

320px-Drakes-Funny-Bone.jpg

Is that for real? Looks like something that should be floating in the toilet not wrapped up an eaten.
 
Is that for real? Looks like something that should be floating in the toilet not wrapped up an eaten.

I never understood the naming of these treates....but i do know that if you ate enough of them your bones would grow funny......btw that cream inside is a peanut butter sauce..mmmmm a full weaks worth of saturated fats in one cake..
 
While management was pointing fingers at the Unions, they were planning on paying $1.75 million in liquidation bonuses and 75% of annual salary for the three month wind down of the operation. Last time I checked.... 3/12 does not equal 75%. The Unions weren't the only problem at Hostess.
 
An excellent post I stumbled upon

I know I am going to get in trouble for posting this because there is a thing called confirmation bias in psychology that causes people to only want to hear what they already believe - it is why you see racists skip over stories that portray minorities in positive ways or why the religious will often hurry up and click to another channel if a special talking about Darwinism is on television. But I'm going to write it anyway. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.
As someone with a very deep economics, financial, and business background, this entire conversation is painful to read. There are so many misconceptions about pension accounting and the bankruptcy process that I feel like reading this thread is the equivalent of seeing those videos where people at Glenn Beck rallies are interviewed spouting off about Obama's secret muslim plot to make us all gay married communists who have interracial children and cross dress while burning flags.
Instead of writing a thirty-page explanation, I am going to explain this like I would to my five-year-old niece. I am not trying to be condescending, so I apologize for the tone. I am trying to remain sane.
For more than eleven years, Hostess was horribly run, including by a CEO who left earlier this year after awarding himself huge pay increases and demanding union concessions.
The new CEO came into office back in March or April and, after discovering these large pay hikes, ordered the top four executive salaries to $1 for the remainder of the year to make up for it, before being restored next year, evening things out.
This new CEO, with the backing of the bailout investors, went to the unions and offered them a package that included:
A twenty-five percent (25%) ownership stake in the business, which would transform Hostess into one of the largest partially employee-owned firms on the planet.
A package of bonds in the company to go to the employees with a face value of $100,000,000 that would generate interest and be repaid in the future
Two seats on the board of the directors, providing influence and power to shape the future of the enterprise
In exchange, the unions had to agree to:
Cut existing pay levels to fall in line with other major bakeries
Do like the other 90% of American manufacturing firms have and "freeze" pension plans, meaning that any new employees will have to use a 401(k) instead.
Pay more out of pocket for some other expenses such as insurance
If all of this happened, the employees of Hostess would not only get to keep their job, but they would be working for themselves. It was the best possible solution to a terrible situation caused by years of mismanagement, none of which was the fault of the current CEO who has only had the job for 8 months or so.
The Teamsters union wisely signed up. They acknowledged that the situation was bad. They talked about how terrible former management had been. They focused on the future and knew that this could work out well and, among all the potential choices, was the best that could be expected.
Then, a smaller union - the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union - said no.
They (the BCTWGMIU) were warned that if the company shut down in a strike, the finances were so weak the doors would have to be closed. Everyone would lose their job. There would be no ownership. There would be no bonds. There would be no seats on the board of directors. There would be no new employees let alone pensions for new employees. It was a complete thermonuclear scenario that would destroy the lives of 18,500 hardworking families.
The BCTWGMIU struck anyway and the Teamsters, to their credit, crossed picket lines and remained reasonable because their actions were based on facts and analysis of what was economically feasible. The company begged the BCTWGMIU to return to the table, but they refused, talking about the litany of abuses of past managements.
For anyone who is successful, well educated, and familiar with strategy such as game theory, the choice is clear. When faced with a total wipeout, you take the option that gives you the greatest long-term chance of survival. Even if the new deal had resulted in only an extra six-months of paychecks, that is six months of income for 18,500 families that relied on that cash. When you represent others, like union leaders do, their welfare is your sole concern.
That is precisely what the Teamsters did. However, the BCTWGMIU behaved like a father who commits a murder-suicide of himself and the children when a spouse leaves, convinced he is in the moral right and that he had no other choice because of his evil ex-wife. He writes a long note detailing all the past mistakes she made and how she drove him to take this action. BCTWGMIU drove Hostess straight into liquidation. The murder-suicide analogy is appropriate because that is exactly what this was: An economic murder-suicide. A vast majority of those 18,500 workers were innocent, behaved the best they could, and did the right thing in a terrible situation. Their entire lives have been destroyed by a handful of their foolish coworkers who were more interested in making a point and detailing past grievances than working with the new team that had come in and offered them a partnership stake in the firm. They were so stuck in the owner vs. employee mindset they ignored the chance to become owners.
The BCTWGMIU just struck a major blow to the little workers' rights power remaining in the United States and hurt the labor movement incalculably. Even worse, they are too foolish to see it. The ramifications have already begun. If a new factory wants to raise money, don't you think investors are going to demand that it locate in a right to work state like Texas, so if this had happened, all of the workers can be summarily fired? The legacy cost of this will be with us for decades.
TL;DR: The Teamsters Union behaved reasonably. The new CEO behaved reasonably. The BCTWGMIU decided it couldn't get what it wanted - which was not economically possible based on the numbers - and turned down the chance to own 25% of the business, collect $100 million in bonds, and get seats on the board of directors. Now they get nothing, everyone loses their jobs, the owners get wiped out, and other corporations get to come in and pick up the assets for pennies on the dollar.
 
An excellent post I stumbled upon

Agreed - thanks for sharing, was some interesting information. Wish he had been even more detailed. This alone though was worth the read:

People at Glenn Beck rallies are interviewed spouting off about Obama's secret muslim plot to make us all gay married communists who have interracial children and cross dress while burning flags.
 
Get rid of the only food capable of keeping humans alive during an apocalypse.
Impressive move mayans....


.
 
I am going to explain this like I would to my five-year-old niece.
.
.
.
the BCTWGMIU behaved like a father who commits a murder-suicide of himself and the children when a spouse leaves, convinced he is in the moral right and that he had no other choice because of his evil ex-wife.
:eek:

Stay away from my five-year-old niece, please!
 
lol .. that looks more like sponge bob.:redface:
 
Besides the jobs lost, etc...would the world really miss Hostess? My sister brought over a bunch of ding dongs, ho ho's etc... to my childs birthday party this weekend. Besides being unhealthy junk food, they didn't taste as well as I has remembered as a child.:confused: Now if we could only get rid of McDonalds in america, maybe we won't all die from being over weight or diabetes? Just thinking outloud....:cool:

P.S. I know McDonalds isn't the only fastfood crap here, just an example of food type.
 
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My airline had 5 CEOs in 7 years. First one took us into a 89 day strike. The Union's ask was $56 million over 5 year contract. The strike cost Delta $800 million and then they settled it. Then they replaced the CEO. Second CEO asked for pay freezes in exchange for growth. We gave the pay freeze and not only did not get growth but they transferred airframes to another regional airline and we shrank by 20%. There was a snap back provision at the end of the agreement to give us our pay back if they did not provide the growth. Two weeks prior they filed for BK. Third CEO asked the BK judge for a 1113c to objurgate the contract and imposed 50% pay cuts. Union made a deal for pay cuts. Fourth CEO asked for more concessions two years later saying we weren't competitive due to our senior seniority list. At this time, the airline turned a $370 million profit. Union told him to pound sand. Fifth CEO (who had no college degree and BK Freedom airline prior) shut down the airline Sept 30, 2012 and Delta transferred the airframes to GoJet Airlines. At the time of the shutdown, the Union was in negotiations and willing to give almost everything they wanted. They didn't care.... they had planned to shutdown the airline all along and transfer the airframes. They just wanted the concessions so they could go after their other Regionals as they had clauses in their contracts with Delta stating that if one Regional had reduced costs they would have to match.

1. You can't shrink a business into profitability
2. You can't make a poorly managed business profitable by constantly reaching into employee's pockets.
3. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice or three times, shame on me.
4. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the Union does, the company has already decided the fate and use the "bad union" as the scapegoat.
 
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they didn't taste as well as I has remembered as a child.:confused:

Yeah but does anything taste, sound, feel, smell or look as good as anything we remember as a child? Sucks getting old. *Sniff :frown:

I remember once when Transformers were the biggest thrill of waking up each morning. Now I have to strangle a hooker just to get the same highs... er... I've said too much. Nevermind. :smile:
 
Now if we could only get rid of McDonalds in america, maybe we won't all die from being over weight or diabetes? Just thinking outloud....:cool:

P.S. I know McDonalds isn't the only fastfood crap here, just an example of food type.
I walked into my neighborhood McDonald's last night for the first time in over a year. I noticed that they posted calorie counts next to each of the items on the board (although it's not required by law here AFAIK). After looking at those calorie counts, I selected a different item from what I had been planning to get, for that specific reason. Just sayin'...
 
My airline had 5 CEOs in 7 years. First one took us into a 89 day strike. The Union's ask was $56 million over 5 year contract. The strike cost Delta $800 million and then they settled it. Then they replaced the CEO. Second CEO asked for pay freezes in exchange for growth. We gave the pay freeze and not only did not get growth but they transferred airframes to another regional airline and we shrank by 20%. There was a snap back provision at the end of the agreement to give us our pay back if they did not provide the growth. Two weeks prior they filed for BK. Third CEO asked the BK judge for a 1113c to objurgate the contract and imposed 50% pay cuts. Union made a deal for pay cuts. Fourth CEO asked for more concessions two years later saying we weren't competitive due to our senior seniority list. At this time, the airline turned a $370 million profit. Union told him to pound sand. Fifth CEO (who had no college degree and BK Freedom airline prior) shut down the airline Sept 30, 2012 and Delta transferred the airframes to GoJet Airlines. At the time of the shutdown, the Union was in negotiations and willing to give almost everything they wanted. They didn't care.... they had planned to shutdown the airline all along and transfer the airframes. They just wanted the concessions so they could go after their other Regionals as they had clauses in their contracts with Delta stating that if one Regional had reduced costs they would have to match.

1. You can't shrink a business into profitability
2. You can't make a poorly managed business profitable by constantly reaching into employee's pockets.
3. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice or three times, shame on me.
4. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the Union does, the company has already decided the fate and use the "bad union" as the scapegoat.
Obviously, the problem was the violence and vandalism of that stubborn union, who got what they deserved. :tongue:
 
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Yeah but does anything taste, sound, feel, smell or look as good as anything we remember as a child? Sucks getting old. *Sniff :frown:

I remember once when Transformers were the biggest thrill of waking up each morning. Now I have to strangle a hooker just to get the same highs... er... I've said too much. Nevermind. :smile:

very true...as we age we lose our tastebuds.......the older we get the finer sense of smell also dulls..these two issues decrease our overall taste,and we seek out food that is saltier/sweeter/spicey to make up for it.Thats why places like olive garden do so well:wink:
 
Besides the jobs lost, etc...would the world really miss Hostess? My sister brought over a bunch of ding dongs, ho ho's etc... to my childs birthday party this weekend. Besides being unhealthy junk food, they didn't taste as well as I has remembered as a child.:confused: Now if we could only get rid of McDonalds in america, maybe we won't all die from being over weight or diabetes? Just thinking outloud....:cool:

P.S. I know McDonalds isn't the only fastfood crap here, just an example of food type.

People are still going to eat like crap no matter what you take away from them. No need to protect people from themselves.
 
Guess it wasn't the Union after all.....

Link

"According to MSNBC, in 2011 when the company was mired in almost a billion dollar debt, then-CEO Brian Driscoll tripled his own salary to $2.24 million per year while other top executives got 35-80% raises as well. Though Driscoll was replaced by Rayburn earlier this year, workers complain that this type of money mismanagement was par for the course at Hostess.

To add insult to injury, the Washington Post reports that this week Hostess’ executive board not only asked the bankruptcy court for permission to immediately liquidate 15,000 factory workers’ jobs, but in also asked permission to grant its current executive board $1.75 million in bonuses.


In contrast, according to Reuters, full-time bakers, including those who've been at the company for decades, were as of late, making $35,000 per year (with overtime), which was down from the $45,000 they were making five years prior.

Factory workers were also recently asked to take another 8% cut in pay and a 17% cut in health benefits. This was especially frustrating because they had already accepted a round of pay cuts several years earlier, which were supposed to have saved the company $100 million per year. The fact that those savings seem to have disappeared have many pointing back at executives for gross mismanagement.


Employees also report that at the same time the most recent round of pay cuts were being proposed, executives were also handing down mandates to increase production levels beyond what was reasonable. Several told Reuters they were often threatened with factory closure by the executive board if those increases were not met.
Hostess' financial choices may be sound reason for workers' revolt, but they're all too common in modern American business where workers pay has stagnated since the 1970s, while CEO pay has increased by 725 percent. Think that's a typo? It's not."
 
It just seems so strange to me the way the owners of the company raised all the money and took all the risk but then didn't want to follow the workers agenda. That's so weird!

Never fails around here to see a union take a company down and the workers ultimately lose their jobs. Soon after the great deals on cars, boats, ATV's, etc are on Craigslist.
 
Steve in this case it was previous mismanagement, not the union, that took the company down. Even if the union gave everything the company wanted Hostess was headed for chapter 7. The union was just a scapegoat.

This boat sank when it was steered aground two years ago and they looted it and sailed away in the the lifeboats.
 
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I've seen unions pull some nasty and self-defeating acts, but this looks to me like they were just the last rats to leave a sinking ship, one that had already been looted by the greedy pigs at the top. The real culprit here is DECLINING SALES. American mothers are less willing to feed such crap to their kids.
 
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