Me thinks either lower boost or bigger injectors. But knowing SuperSonic, it will be the latter!:biggrin:
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Question for all you f/ic turbo users.
- Thread starter SuperSonic
- Start date
Me thinks either lower boost or bigger injectors. But knowing SuperSonic, it will be the latter!:biggrin:
Then at over 400hp you start thinking about a clutch since the OEM one won't last too long
It's a slippery slope!
Well car starts oem. It idle's much better. The drive ability of the car is good. I think it still has to learn as its only driven to the tuner and back, then i took it to work. It drives good. When i first go from a stop it is rich (needed to richen near idle cause it would almost die, then at 2k it will go like 16.5 real quick but level out to 14.8 at 2.5k on. Boost is all in the 11's.
As for fuel eventually ill get 550's. His a/f reading was lets say 12, my car says 11.7, and i think the true number is 11.5. This is all based off the 02 aem wide band position. I use to have it in the test pipe for my sc, now its in muffler tip, and tuner had that pipe thing. Basically im saying that while even at full boost at 8 k on paper its like 11.8, really its like 11.4. So although im running out at 7200 rpm or so, unless i do 6th gear pulls at full boost over 7k rpm, ill be fine.
But like i said, the car drives good, my only "concern" was after i get on freeway boost 2-3, a little 3-4, slow down to a good speed and hold throttle at like 10%, suddenly car felt like it lost power and went lean for a split second. Im trying to pay close attention if i really did do that or i let off the gas too much trying to adjust and i closed the throttle. Otherwise car is fun.
As for clutch, specifically the 04-05 lbbp have special clutches that hold 500 whp. Lol, jk. Previous guy put an aftermarket clutch in. Not sure its make, thiugh it may be comptech since previous guy bouggt headers, muffler, and comptech air box, i assume the clutch is comptech. Thats why i think the fuel pump is upgraded as on 1 run theres no way id hit 465 whp on a stock pump, so ill change injectors down the road.
As for fuel eventually ill get 550's. His a/f reading was lets say 12, my car says 11.7, and i think the true number is 11.5. This is all based off the 02 aem wide band position. I use to have it in the test pipe for my sc, now its in muffler tip, and tuner had that pipe thing. Basically im saying that while even at full boost at 8 k on paper its like 11.8, really its like 11.4. So although im running out at 7200 rpm or so, unless i do 6th gear pulls at full boost over 7k rpm, ill be fine.
But like i said, the car drives good, my only "concern" was after i get on freeway boost 2-3, a little 3-4, slow down to a good speed and hold throttle at like 10%, suddenly car felt like it lost power and went lean for a split second. Im trying to pay close attention if i really did do that or i let off the gas too much trying to adjust and i closed the throttle. Otherwise car is fun.
As for clutch, specifically the 04-05 lbbp have special clutches that hold 500 whp. Lol, jk. Previous guy put an aftermarket clutch in. Not sure its make, thiugh it may be comptech since previous guy bouggt headers, muffler, and comptech air box, i assume the clutch is comptech. Thats why i think the fuel pump is upgraded as on 1 run theres no way id hit 465 whp on a stock pump, so ill change injectors down the road.
Great news on the fix. What boost level are you hitting to get 456hp? That seems kind of optimistic with 440 injectors. I was under the impression that right around 400-420hp 440's are totally maxed out. 456hp is ALOT of power.
Be careful nailing it coming out of corners!
As a follow up, you seem to be losing a lot of boost over 6krpm's. Make sure ALL of your pressurized connections are tight from turbo to throttle body. I bet you have a slight leak somewhere to drop nearly 1/2 your boost by 8k. It also seems strange that your turbo XS boost controller is giving you peak boost turned all the way down. It should bleed off everything so you just run on the spring when it's turned all the way down. My XS needs 2 1/2 full + turns to get me from 3 up to 7-8psi.
Be careful nailing it coming out of corners!
As a follow up, you seem to be losing a lot of boost over 6krpm's. Make sure ALL of your pressurized connections are tight from turbo to throttle body. I bet you have a slight leak somewhere to drop nearly 1/2 your boost by 8k. It also seems strange that your turbo XS boost controller is giving you peak boost turned all the way down. It should bleed off everything so you just run on the spring when it's turned all the way down. My XS needs 2 1/2 full + turns to get me from 3 up to 7-8psi.
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Our cars do not learn, They do not have a Trim Table, all Long term trims are adaptive to the short term trims and are only stored temporarily and applied to the entire fuel table while in closed loop untill they adapt again, but they are not stored in a RPM vs MAP table so you need to work on your fuel map under the light load conditions. This is where a live data OBDii scan tool comes into play along with a level long stretch of highway. Idealy you need a laptop and someone to drive for you and make the changes live while you drive. Spend the time to iron out the wrinkles and she will drive like OEM.
WOT tuning is the easy part the rest of the tune takes time to get right. In most cases your tuner will not have the time to get it perfect, but with the F/IC it really needs to be. With 440's you should be able to get your long term fuel trims to within +/- 3% everywhere, that should be your goal.
Dave
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To be honest dave i probably am not. I just plugged it in, had them tune it and was good to go. Ill check all the connections. Brian, we turned it as tight as it goes and i think it was at 6 psi. We thought it was broke so turned it up all the way, we stopped the dyno on that 465 whp run. So we unplugged the controller and it was only at 3 psi. So the controller must work
I have been having the exact same cold starting issue since I had AEM rebuild my FIC. Mase thought it might be the firmware but I just haven't gotten around to sending him my fic. I guess now I will have to do that as it seems this may have been my problem all along. I just haven't been driving the car as I have been having too much fun with my new Kawasaki ZX14R. OMG Kawasaki outdid themselves with this bike, it is a brutal "Busa Killer".
I am not happy to see all these issues with fic lately.
Yes, it runs just fine now with the retune to use the correct firmware. The fuel curve below 2 k could be a tad better as i had him add more to fix a stalling issue but thats what you get with bigger injectors. Runs great. Just reinstalled my modified y pipe Will sent, tightened up some oil lines as there was residu but no drips, and honda bonded the hell out of it lol. Even relicated the filter in fender since i had to for warrenty issues as well as it just got really dirty after less than 100 highway miles. If it wasnt raining this weekend id lower the car back to the ground but ehhh, its raining, let it stay on jacks a little longer.
If your stalling issue is when you are coming to a stop and the RPMs drop as you put in the clutch too low and the car dies. I was having that exact same problem and all we did was turn up the idle slightly so when the drop occurred it didn't go low enough to stall the engine. I haven't had a single stall since then. We kept it below 1,000 but just slightly.
Sorta. Mine was if you blip throttle to go or reverse rpm would drop to like 500, so we added more fuel to 1-2k. Its fine now, just when you take off clutch grabs at lets say 1500 rpm af is 14, car starts to go after catch and rpm is 1100 af 13.5 as rpm climbs it gets some times around 13-13.5 then at almost exactly 2-2200 rpm it goes 16.5 af, then by 2200 its normal at 14.8 ish until i mash on it and under boost it goes to 11's. So its not like its a major deal, it works great at normal speeds and under load. Even at that low rpm only when taking off it doesnt bog or hick up, it just goes lean for a second.
This is in your tune, and can be fixed. The car under any load should not go over 15.2:1 AFR, do not confuse this with the lean decel our cars have, if you lift the throttle quickly or lift off the throttle completely the fuel injectors actually stop injecting untill the engine RPM's fall to idle or you change the throttle possition. You will see AFR's off the scale lean and this is normal. If you are having a problem with a lean tip in condition and cannot fix it with the tune, AEM has new software that is available that has an accel pump emulator to help with this. The new software will allow an extra squirt of fuel bassed on the percentage of throttle movement. This is something that can help both positive displacement blowers and very fast spooling turbos. This is Beta software so if it aint broke then don't try and fix it.
Dave
Yeah i figured it could, so wheni get a chance i'll bring it back out there and have them go for a drive and retune it.
Are you running this beta ware on your twins and will I need that too?
No I am not. I have used it but I am not running it currently. You can get away with a lot just by playing within the current software. The accel pump function is just a new feature in the beta and the NSX OEM ECU does a good enough job of dealing with tip in that in most cases it is not needed.
Dave
Jc, all you need is the firmware im running now. Works perfect now. Though on a side note check engine came on today. NOW i am still thinking its 1 of 2 things. To start no i didnt pull the code, car ran just fine and stuff. I started it, drove to gas station while boosting it. I think it was still off. Got gas and drove 3 miles and stopped at gf work and noticed it. Last time i clicked gas cap to much ramon said (yes, i drove 60 miles to ramon to have him tell me i put gas cap on wrong). So, either i boosted and tcs was bypassed some how and light came on from it not engageing orrrr i didnt click cap just right. Its like you gotta push hard and get exactly 3 clicks lol. Well got home, reset ecu, and it works so far no light. Im gona drive it tomorrow to c if it comes on. Been a lot of check engine lights and turbos going on lately, huh jc 
If you go to Advance Auto Parts or any other store they have real cheap basic scanners like $50. that you can easily read the codes from, I keep one in the glove box as they are very small.
If you are going to spend $50.00 on a code reader, spend a little more like $100.00 on one that will display live data as this will be a much better tool for diagnostics and tuning. If you just want to read a code go to Autozone and ask them to read your codes for you, its free.
Dave
why can i live closer to you dave lol
Check engine light issues? What do you mean? After I spent enough money to buy a small country, I don't have any CEL issues.
I have been kicking around the idea of a F/IC training course in house. The F/IC is something you can learn in a day if you have a basic understanding of how an engine works and how fuel injection works. I was thinking we could cover almost everything in a 4 hour class session and about 3 hours on the dyno. The problem comes in how to get 5-6 guys together to make it worth the time and money needed to pull it off. At least this way you would spend some money getting to St. Louis and paying for the class but you would save on all future tunes and if successful you should be able to finesse the tune in your car over time much better than any single tuning session would yield with a tuning shop.
There are other tuning classes out there but my idea was to tailor just to OBDII NSX F/IC users. OBDI NSX owners would benefit greatly from seeing the OBDII data from the ECU to understand what the ECU is doing but without the feedback from the ECU the OBDI cars are a little more challenging and take more time to get right.
Dave
^^^^^^^
I like this idea. But maybe instead of having us fly to you we could fly you to us. I'm sure there are a bunch of SoCal people who would participate. And I'm sure there are other Primers in other parts of the country that would probably do the same thing. Give it some thought...
Pull the codes and let us know what they are, but based on your description the car failed one of its emmision readiness test that are run after each start cycle to make sure the emmisions are working correctly. The test are there to ensure the O2 sensors, EGR, Cats, and Evap Canisters are all working correctly. Any one test fails and you get a check engine light.
Are you running a cat with your turbo?
Dave
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I was actually pondering asking a handful of the socal guys if ya'll wanted to fly in Dave (assuming it was acceptable for Dave of course) but you guys beat me to it!
I see pros/cons to us flying out to St. Louis vs. Dave flying in.
You can count me as a solid tentative, timing dependent. I'm running OBD1 so i'll have to extrapolate how to adapt it to my car. However, my next car will be OBD2 so the knowledge will be invaluable.
I see pros/cons to us flying out to St. Louis vs. Dave flying in.
You can count me as a solid tentative, timing dependent. I'm running OBD1 so i'll have to extrapolate how to adapt it to my car. However, my next car will be OBD2 so the knowledge will be invaluable.
