Question about mods on NSXs and whether they increase or decrease value?

[goldNSX]

Interesting question. Here are my 0.02. 100% stock is an absolute term but people create their own subjective view of 100% stock as we've seen in the past. 100% stock does not mean that it still has the first oil and filter on it. Even a 100% stock car needs maintainance. It is still 100% stock if if has been serviced with the now available parts (short oil filter).
You can hear the following statement very often: 'My car is stock except for...which are improvements.' Mods are very subjective and dependent on the owners preferences. This is certainly far away from being 100% stock by a purists definition. Some mods (wheels, exhaust) can be returned to stock, some not (bodykit). But a car that has been modifed once and was put back to stock condition is NOT a stock car over it's lifetime and is not very desired by potential buyers who are looking for stock cars. Most buyers prefer stock cars because they expect a high correlation between stock and well driven/pampered cars. A car with fast mods is regarded to be driven fast as well.
As for the mods you'll never find a buyer that is willing to pay for the exact mods-combination the seller 'invested'. Buyers are searching their car with a bunch of minimum amount of mods but they don't want to pay for the mods they don't need/like. That's why the depreciation of BMW's and other cars where you can choose tons of mods in million of combinations is so high. One thing is sure: stock cars sell faster because they are attractive to more potential buyers, puristes and tuners. The later ones also just because they can do their own mods. One exception: Stock and highly pampered cars don't sell fast because their price level is higher than the others and 99% of the buyers are eBay-like: they want the best car but only want to pay the second-best price. The seller has a hard time to convince the buyer that this car has been taken care of all this lifetime.

Regarding NSXGMS's statement about 70% of the NSX being stock nsxprime.com became a the world biggest tuning-forum then. Sad. Ok, I'm no exception.

As to the OP's question: These are 'mild' (very subjective!) mods and won't keep me away from looking into it. Here in Switzerland 4 out of 5 NSX that have been sold in the past get their mild mods (wheels, exhaust, lowering) a little bit but mainly for optical reasons. Of course we have some track rats here also.

 

[lightguy]

Hey Guys,

I agree with the idea of getting one stock. It's just not that easy to find a 2001 silver perfectly clean and maintained to the inth unless I may be mistaken but out of the 164 cars on AOL and the Market here there are very few I'd consider.

Anyway, I want a to use the car for about 5k miles a year. Half the time I drive and I sure want to drive the twisty mountain roads - yessiree! I do not want a garrage queen, collector, perfect model for posterity cause for me that's no fun. I'm in for the fun of it and for me that's DRIVING!

Here is what I believe to be a good deal on a silver 02 driver;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0366465782&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT&viewitem=

 

[EuroBoutique]

ok I'm an avid NSX owner and thoroughly experience with modifying "cars" in general and not just NSX's.

I have to agree that MOST NSX's I see are modded in some way - at least the ones that I see floating around. Keep in mind what's stock for one person is not ideal for another.

Example: A stereo guy would value a change in speakers but for me, a fancy stereo puts a big worry for me that the previous shop did a crappy wiring job. Another guy may think dropping the car with JIC coils is a good mod but to a senior guy who values tire wear it may be bad.

This is why to avoid this problem, ALWAYS KEEP YOUR STOCK PARTS so you can return it to stock when sale time comes along. Heavily modded NSX's are a totally different ball game however and you should be prepared to wait to find the right buyer or just not sell it before you do those hurtful mods.

I have everything from my oem suspension, muffler, and even the absolutely pristine OEM seats nicely stored for the future owner. None of my mods involve any drilling and all of it can be easily reversible.

To me my car is modded 110% perfectly and I enjoy every penny I spent but I totally realize not everyone will agree with me. When and if I ever decide to sell my rare baby, it will be put back to stock unless the next owner wants the car the way it sits AND is WILLING TO PAY my asking price. I hate lowballers trying to devalue my mods when he/she knows it's worth $$$$. This won't be a problem anytime soon since it's not going to be on the market!


gluck on your purchase,
R

 

[clr1024]

Project Mu pads dust more and wear faster than OEM pads.

I switched from OEM to Project Mu pads and disagree on this.

As to the OP if they are fully adjustable coilovers you can bring the height up to decrease the negative camber. Also important is what kind of tires is he running. My car is lowered 1.25" and I am getting good wear out of the rears on my Good Year Eagle F1 GS D3, and I think this is a great all around tire. Search prime and you will see it has received great reviews from many members.

It's also not just negative camber that wears down tires but also tire scrub from toe in or toe out.

Also I have the ARK DT-X and love it, even for just the sound alone. ALthough I do think it's one of the best looking exhausts

 

[tbromley]

HI Guys,

Just read the two new posts by "R"/S4play and clr1024, and thanks for writing. I agree with most of what R said about mods, and of course changing out mods and putting a car back to stock costs money which a prospective buyer would have to shuck out if he bought the car with the mods in place as most owners have little interest in returning their cars back to stock at their own expense. Matter of fact R is the first person I know that would do that, most would simply give you the stock items for you to take care of if that was your desire and hoping to recoup the investiment that they put into the mods so it's not always apples to apples in that regard. "Beating" someone down on their mods is purely subjective, some don't want a "firmer" ride that wears rear tires faster - like me. Now the car I'm looking at has JIS coil overs, 2 degrees of negative camber, don't know what the toe end setting are, and it's lowered about an inch and he uses GSD3 Goodyears and gets 6000 miles out of a set. To me that is unacceptable tire wear whereas some wouldn't care, the firmer ride I can take or leave it. My Civic SI, that I'm trying to sell, comes with a suspension that I just don't care to mod cause I never "search" the limits of what I have and don't want to comprimise comfort. So those kinds of things in my mind add no value, but it may be a fine mod and others may like it- so it is truly subjective as R says but the only thing I can think of that would make a person take off mods would be to sell them to someone else that perhaps may like to buy them at 50 cents if your lucky on the dollar. So beat down up front or later what's the diff. Your never going to get out of mods what you the owner put into them unless you find a very special buyer and it's all very newly moded. I've seen this in Porsches that have been restored to RS spec as in the 70, 71, 72, 73 years. But it's always cheaper to buy one that has been restored than it is ever going to be for the guy that wants to restore one. That's just the facts.

But to Clr1024 on the JIS suspension, I guess your saying you can raise the car back up and bring the camber back to spec at 1.5 degrees but the toe end setting is something I'll have to check. It was installed by the dealer. I just want to get more like 10k miles out of the rears; 6k is just too low for me. What do your recommend?

Thanks guys I sure enjoy reading your posts and R, that NSX of yours is mighty pretty. I like White, they're hard to find in the later models.

Tim
Atlanta

 

[RPM217]

HI Guys,

Just read the two new posts by "R"/S4play and clr1024, and thanks for writing. I agree with most of what R said about mods, and of course changing out mods and putting a car back to stock costs money which a prospective buyer would have to shuck out if he bought the car with the mods in place as most owners have little interest in returning their cars back to stock at their own expense. Matter of fact R is the first person I know that would do that, most would simply give you the stock items for you to take care of if that was your desire and hoping to recoup the investiment that they put into the mods so it's not always apples to apples in that regard. "Beating" someone down on their mods is purely subjective, some don't want a "firmer" ride that wears rear tires faster - like me. Now the car I'm looking at has JIS coil overs, 2 degrees of negative camber, don't know what the toe end setting are, and it's lowered about an inch and he uses GSD3 Goodyears and gets 6000 miles out of a set. To me that is unacceptable tire wear whereas some wouldn't care, the firmer ride I can take or leave it. My Civic SI, that I'm trying to sell, comes with a suspension that I just don't care to mod cause I never "search" the limits of what I have and don't want to comprimise comfort. So those kinds of things in my mind add no value, but it may be a fine mod and others may like it- so it is truly subjective as R says but the only thing I can think of that would make a person take off mods would be to sell them to someone else that perhaps may like to buy them at 50 cents if your lucky on the dollar. So beat down up front or later what's the diff. Your never going to get out of mods what you the owner put into them unless you find a very special buyer and it's all very newly moded. I've seen this in Porsches that have been restored to RS spec as in the 70, 71, 72, 73 years. But it's always cheaper to buy one that has been restored than it is ever going to be for the guy that wants to restore one. That's just the facts.

But to Clr1024 on the JIS suspension, I guess your saying you can raise the car back up and bring the camber back to spec at 1.5 degrees but the toe end setting is something I'll have to check. It was installed by the dealer. I just want to get more like 10k miles out of the rears; 6k is just too low for me. What do your recommend?

Thanks guys I sure enjoy reading your posts and R, that NSX of yours is mighty pretty. I like White, they're hard to find in the later models.

Tim
Atlanta

If 6k out of the rear tires is too little for you, don't buy a NSX. My car is all stock (2002) and my first set of rear tires went out at 4,500 miles, I've gotten as much as 9,000 miles, but the tires were horrible. Anything between 6-7500 miles out of a car that isn't tracked, but driven "properly" is acceptable IMHO.

 

[Osiris_x11]

welcome to the NSX after-market...

... and of course changing out mods and putting a car back to stock costs money which a prospective buyer would have to shuck out if he bought the car with the mods in place as most owners have little interest in returning their cars back to stock at their own expense.

Hey bud, how's it going! This just shows how out-of-touch you are w/ the NSX community...

Lemme edumacate you, if I may:

Most enthusiast NSX owners have the same approach as s4play, in that they'll offer their NSX as-is & also as "stock"/"near-stock" for less money, in turn selling-off their reversible after-market mods'. It comes down to time vs. money, to be concise.

My former NSX was sold this way & the NSX I acquired afterwards was purchased this way.

For instance, it's a handful of hours to swap-out a suspension or $150-$250 for a shop to do it. It takes half-an-hour to swap-out an exhaust as a D.I.Y. It takes less than 15 mins' to replace a Carbon-fiber airbox w/ the OEM/stock plastic one. Quality after-market headers which can be sold "used" for $1,000+ require an entire afternoon (ie. half a day) on a weekend to remove.

but the only thing I can think of that would make a person take off mods would be to sell them to someone else that perhaps may like to buy them at 50 cents if your lucky on the dollar. So beat down up front or later what's the diff. Your never going to get out of mods what you the owner put into them unless you find a very special buyer and it's all very newly modded. That's just the facts.

This isn't the case w/ NSX'es, and you need to learn that. And once you learn that, you'll see the inherent value in the vehicle & it's parts. . .

Quality/desirable NSX mods' (or relevant parts/accessories), whether OEM (Zanardi/Type-S, JDM or NSX-R) or after-market, are very coveted & sought-after even if pre-owned & sold ala'carte.

Ex.

New Zanardi / Type-S suspension: $1,250
Pre-owned Zanardi / Type-S suspension: $850

New Tein RE coilover suspension: $1,400
Pre-owned Tein RE coilover suspension: $1,200

New NSX-R chassis-bars: $225
Pre-owned NSX-R chassis-bars: $200

New Taitec JGTC Parallel exhaust: $1,150
Pre-owned Taitec JGTC Parallel exhaust: $950

New NSX-specific H.I.D. kit: $400
Pre-owned NSX-specific H.I.D. kit: $375

New Downforce AIS: $200
Pre-owned Downforce AIS: $150

New NSX-R shift-boot/plate: $85
Pre-owned NSX-R shift-boot/plate: $75

New polished-aluminum fuse-box cover: $55
Pre-owned polished-aluminum fuse-box cover: $45

New Dali Racing Cro-Magnon racing harness-bar: $540
Pre-owned Dali Racing Cro-Magnon racing harness-bar: $450

Advan AVS Model 5 wheels: $2,000
Pre-owned Advan AVS Model 5 wheels: $1,800

New genuine OEM-accessory NSX sheepskin seat-insert covers: $175
Pre-owned genuine OEM-accessory NSX sheepskin seat-insert covers: $125

New OEM NSX service manual: $90
Pre-owned NSX service manual: $75

+ numerous other instances/transactions

(these above are just from my OWN personal experiences... in majority of other cases, the trend holds true)

In essence, non-consumable/non-wear'n'tear pre-owned NSX parts (whether OEM, JDM, or after-market) are very coveted & in-demand. It's all about marketing & presentation as well as being offered ala' carte. The sh!t is literally like money-in-the-bank, like most NSX'es... and the interest is accrued as smiles-per-miles. . .

 

[tbromley]

Thanks guys, I've been edumacted! I appreciate the feedback. Sounds like a lot more than 50 cents on the dollar more like 75 to 80, pretty good. NSXers are truly unique in that regard. You sure wouldn't see that in the Porsche world; obviously very different.

As to tire life another friend here on the list is getting 10k miles or so out of his Yokohamas and his car is stock post 97. So I really have nothing but that to lean on. Interesting that you guys have experienced that. So guess I'm just gonna have to lump it cause I'm not deterred from buying one.

I'll consider this as I ponder the negotiations in the future. I will say that others on the list have expressed slightly different perspectives but R has a lot of records to go along with his testimony. On the tire wear I'll just have to make do. I will say this, and it may be that R is a total DIY guy which is great but many aren't and if you have to pay to take your car back to stock I bet it would be slightly different story. But if you can sell em and the new owner doesn't want them that is surely a good idea to take em off and sell em. Obviously it's worked for you. This is a different kind of site and the NSX is so unique that it may be totaly different like you say R.

Thanks a lot.

Tim
Atlanta

 

[clr1024]

But to Clr1024 on the JIS suspension, I guess your saying you can raise the car back up and bring the camber back to spec at 1.5 degrees but the toe end setting is something I'll have to check. It was installed by the dealer. I just want to get more like 10k miles out of the rears; 6k is just too low for me. What do your recommend?

Yes you could raise it back up but 6K for rears seems ridiculous on GSD3's. Unless he is lower than he thinks.
Even on my pilot sports I got mileage higher than that, it was at least in the mid teens if not closer to 20K. I will have to dig through my records and see what my alignment was set to by my mechanic (First Class Automotive(owned by Nabil Armaly, however Oster set it, his prime name is FLA NSX FIXER, if you want to shoot him a PM).

The camber in the rear is as positive as he can set it (still negative) with how low my car is (1.25"). Not sure about the toe settings. I should have my sheet though, if I can find it I will scan it and send it to you. My car is lowered on Bilsteins and Dali springs. As for my tires , GS D3's, without looking at records I know I have at least 10K on them with plenty more mileage to go.

The only issue you might have with the JIC suspension might be the spring rate. Not sure how stiff it is or isn't, but if you want a daily driver or something streetable I would look into that.

As someone else said, see if you can find a stock one to drive.

HTH,

Carl

 

[2slow2speed]

Hmm..

It seems that the OP is concerned about tire wear, the NSX like many Mid Engine and Rear Engine cars has some negative camber to go along with the engine placement. Look at the Boxster/Cayman as well as the 911's and they will have similar amount of negative rear camber as well as similar tire wearing characteristics.

Some of the early NA1's NSXs had a very aggresive toe-in setting for the rear, later NA1's and NA2's had a little bit less aggresive rear toe in characteristics.

Toe-in in the rear is essential on stock NSX's to aid in high speed stability. With the non-compliance toe links and corresponding bushing in the rear beam it is possible to run the rear suspension with 0 degrees of toe. So what I am getting at is that it's possible to dial out the toe related issues but it's hard to be able to dial out the negative camber without affecting the great handling characteristics of the NSX.

BTW: Tire wear of 6000 miles seems low IMHO, so the alignment on that particular NSX might be out of spec.

 

[clr1024]

Here's some good info on the NSX and alignment for you.

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Alignment

Read section 6, Maximizing Tire Life. Of course this may depend on your driving style.

 

[Osiris_x11]

wheel/tire size + alignment specs' + suspension/ride-height = rear tire-wear

tbromley... I've gotten consistent ~10k miles on my rears w/ Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3 & Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position tires, both makes are near OEM/stock equivalent max' performance summer tires w/ great dry grip, good wet-traction, acceptable road-noise, and excellent overall handling. This was w/ 17/17 wheels & Zanardi/Type-S suspension (lowers ~1/2") & OEM alignment specs' (I presume the revised '93+ alignment setup). And my driving style is spirited/enthusiastic. . .

If your ride-height isn't excessively low (even w/ an after-market suspension), the wheels aren't 18/19, the alignment specs' are the revised OEM '93+ values (less rear toe-in), you'll get ~10k+ miles from most max' performance summer tires, and obviously more w/ the lesser high perf' summer tires. . .

Also, keep in mind that the fronts generally wear 50% less than the rears; so (1) set of fronts likely will last as long as (2) sets of rears. . .

Regarding the current installed after-market suspension, if you're not a wrencher/D.I.Y.'er nor have the time/tools for such a task, find a local indie tuner shop or off-the-clock mechanic to do a swap for you (a specialized tech' isn't needed). If the OEM suspension is unavailable via the seller during the purchase/delivery of the NSX, you can easily & readily acquire one w/ low-to-avg' miles on it for literally pennies on the dollar & then just sell the JIC/etc'. Likewise w/ the ARK exhaust (swap in an OEM/stock exhaust), if it isn't your fancy. Both items will sell quickly, trust me. Peruse over the marketplace's for-sale sub-forum & you'll get an idea of the price each goes for. For a quick sale, lower a lil'. If you got room to store, sit on 'em for a price you feel is fair. Point being, they'll sell now or later regardless. . .

Regarding the NSX in-question having the spacers (equivalent of a low/aggressive offset), I'm not sure if that hastens tread-wear when the vehicle is lowered w/ an after-market suspension. I'm sure others here would be able to chime in on that based on their experiences & background know'how. . .

Maint'/service history is obviously negotiable if incomplete/deferred.

The clear-bra is a bonus, if you ask me. Aside from the added protection for the future, think of all the past rock-chips/road-debris/pitting/etc' prevented! Front-bumper/valance resprays are a reality, otherwise. . .

G'luck!

 

[tbromley]

Thanks guys for the tips, I'm going to check in on the "wiki" link sent that should really help.

The car I'm looking at with the is it JIC suspension and ARK exhaust; the owner has all the original stuff that comes with the car. There are folks here in Atlanta that should be able to work out the alignment to get better tire wear. But the current owner is only getting 6k miles out of GSD3s with he says, 3/4" lower, and negative 2 degrees, toe in, I'm at a loss, but this is very encouraging to know that most of you guys are getting close to 10 or more. That's what I got in my 993 911 and probably better than that in my 87 Turbo Look and I'm sure better in my SC targa, but older in 911s means lighter too, less engine weight due to size. So if I get 10 or so, I'm good. That would be acceptable cause I plan to drive it at least 5k a year (about half the time). I live close in so my commute is pretty short.

Well, I'm going to see one tonight owned by a primer that has been heavily moded with about 600 hp if what I heard is right. It's got a super charger, body kit and suspension goodies. Hope he gives me a ride in it. He said he "would if I dared", oh boy. We'll see. Anyway, I'm pretty much a stock kind of guy. If it's as fast as my 993, which others have said is the case then it will surely be fast enough for me.

Thanks again guys.
Tim

 

[bfrank1972]

Buy this monster:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109546

 

[tbromley]

Bfrank, that would definitely be a monster but I don't think that's me. But thanks for the thought.

I met up with several NSXrs in Atlanta last nite and had a great time. I am now totally convinced this is the car for me. Sat in one finally, started the engine and it sure feels powerful when reving a 2003 red one up with custom exhaust. More than enough for me - stock!

As to the comment yesterday about tire wear to the fellow that said if you don't like 6k rear tire wear don't buy an NSX - one word - WRONG! All these guys with old ones, and 2001 and 2003 and 2004 set their camber to almost 0 as close as could be attained and it was almost 0 - are getting out of GSD3s over 15k miles. Alex said he was getting out of his highly moded 2001 with 17s and 18s over 15k miles. There is a way - and they told me where to get the car aligned in Atlanta by "the" specialist.

So now I don't have to worry bout tire wear - it's official. Write to Alex- find my post to the Atlanta Coalition and you'll find his prime handle. Just in case you too are tired of premature tire wear!!! Something for the team.

Over and out for now,
Tim
Atlanta

 

[Cairo94507]

Well it is up to you; it is your car.

When I was shopping for a NSX I wanted a stock car because I believed one not modded out (18/19" wheels, supercharger, suspension, etc.) was hopefully one driven more conservatively.

That being said, once I had my 2001 I did Bilstein struts on the lower perch, a CompTech muffler, HID headlights, a battery tender, a clear bra, 20/25 mm hub spacers and I did the '02 factory rear valance painted the factory color scheme. Car was clean and suttle, the way I like them.

Also, when I did sell it, I did not expect to get anything for the things I did. That is just the cost of owning the car and having it look the way I want it. Good luck in your hunt.

 

[tbromley]

Hey Cairo,

I have a Prius too. I bet we think more alike than you think. I'm just a bit on the "econo" side. Kind of want my cake and eat it too. You see you did the very thing the owner I'm dealing with said he should have done - bilstines on the second perch! Funny you'd say that. Anyway, I'd surely like better tire wear than 6k and I doubt if I'll notice too much of a sacrifice to handling. We'll see. It's gonna be a real adventure! I'm fired up about it all. Thanks for the well wishes. I appreciate it. I'm not going anywhere you guys are great! Can't wait to join the club.

Talked to Alex today, he's one on the list and he's going to organize an outing and that will get me in for a ride and maybe even a drive. His has 432 at the wheels! It's going to be fun. Thanks to all,
Tim