Putting the pieces together

[WingZ]

Ok what we know so far.

1. Honda is not going for a ground breaking segment changing car like the NSX was for the next sports coupe/car. This has been confirmed a couple of times

http://blog.caranddriver.com/acura-old-nsx-was-too-high-a-halo-next-sports-car-to-be-less-ambitious/

2. The SHAWD system from the HSV is supposed to be used

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2010/1011_honda_nsx_gets_new_lease_on_life/index.html

3. General time frame and that it will use most of the tech developed for the HSV
http://blog.caranddriver.com/acura-will-keep-flagship-sedan-conservative-may-add-high-end-sporty-vehicle-to-lineup/

Now the above are articles you've all seen and what I'm hoping is maybe you guys can tell me about some stuff I've missed.

Seems to me it will be using everything but the V10 so it seems like it should be similar in size. I can't tell if it will be mid engine or if the patant that was filed was for the next S2000 to be mid engine. I also can't tell if it will hybrid or not as the Car and Driver article says that it will be "unconventional" which which to me precludes it being hybrid but what do you guys think?

Also note that while in Japan Primers were told "no more sports cars" and one of our Honda insiders said that the car discussed in the MT article was not the NSX.

That said we have about 12-18 mos to speculate ..shall we begin:biggrin:

 

[6spdterror]

So i guess the GTR will be the only game in town for now and keep securing it's own legacy. Mazda is supposedly coming back with the RX-7, Toyota coming back with a Supra replacement and Lexus has their unattainable LF-A. Honda currently has a 197hp Civic si and a "sporty Crz". Acura currently have no sports cars...hell they dont even have a coupe!!
I dont know when Honda will wake up and smell the coffee, if a brand as vanilla as Toyota can actually come back in the sports car game in a way as big as the LFA amidst all their recalls and losses, why cant Honda??

 

[captainjman]

So i guess the GTR will be the only game in town for now and keep securing it's own legacy. Mazda is supposedly coming back with the RX-7, Toyota coming back with a Supra replacement and Lexus has their unattainable LF-A. Honda currently has a 197hp Civic si and a "sporty Crz". Acura currently have no sports cars...hell they dont even have a coupe!!
I dont know when Honda will wake up and smell the coffee, if a brand as vanilla as Toyota can actually come back in the sports car game in a way as big as the LFA amidst all their recalls and losses, why cant Honda??

It sure would be nice if they listened to us, but I really don't think they care. Is it fact that they lost money on each and every NSX they sold??? if so, I think they are trying to cut expensive advertising. But what they don't get is how many sales they really got because of an NSX in every showroom. I was on my way to a toyota dealership to buy a celica back in 94 when I saw something amazing in the showroom window. We did a U-turn to come to the dealership and see WTF that thing was. The NSX was all the advertising they ever needed. I saw the sticker and knew it was impossible for me to get. But I was in their showroom... so right next to that beautiful NSX was a Integra GSR... and then they had a chance to tell me how the technology from the NSX program was poured into their entire line of cars... I WAS HOOKED!!!!

WTF are they going to grab my attention with now? NOTHING! They are busy copying Lexus, Mercedes, BMW etc etc. Its not just sad, its pathetic. Acura's were purchased for people who wanted something special..now just a bunch of copycats!

Imagine if they had a lease on the new NSX for 799 like they did back in 2004... Who here wouldn't pick one up. IDIOTS!!!!!!!

I couldn't believe it when I purchased my first non-acura car a couple years ago! We've had 14 in the family. And I REFUSE to let anyone in the family buy an acura/honda until they come out with another GROUNDBREAKING, GTR killing, head turning, financially attainable NSX. My family follows my lead and takes my advice on cars.

Honda - do your F'n job! Im sick of this hokey pokey, you're in, you're out BS. Youre loosing us.. all of us! And trust us, all your sales figures will soon take a huge hit!

Maybe I shouldn't post when I am drunk, but damn it, its the truth, its straight from the heart and YOU OWE US A NEW NSX!

 

[WingZ]

Well if it remains true that the "unconventional"car that Honda is releasing at the same time as the RL then it seems that this old excerpt was quite true and that Honda continued to keep working on something sporty even when the HSV was canceled.

http://www.zerotohundred.com/2008/auto-news/honda-nsx-replacement-model-caught-without-camouflage/

"According to the guys over at Auto Express, the 2 + 2 coupe will wear a “hybrid” aluminium and steel body to reduce weight, and will run on a modified version of the US Acura RL saloon platform."

The article even gives the time frame of late 2011 to early 2012. Although I'm pretty sure it will now be mid to late 2012 for us to see this new car according to what Acura told C/D.

I'd found an article talking to about the eight speed dsg tranny that the HSV was going to use and will now probably be used on both the RL and this sporty flagship but can't seem to locate it.

Not going to be a GTR competitor but at it's price range of $55-60k sounds more like M3 , Audi S5 competition. Which is good company.

 

[NSXrebel]

So i guess the GTR will be the only game in town for now and keep securing it's own legacy. Mazda is supposedly coming back with the RX-7, Toyota coming back with a Supra replacement and Lexus has their unattainable LF-A. Honda currently has a 197hp Civic si and a "sporty Crz". Acura currently have no sports cars...hell they dont even have a coupe!!
I dont know when Honda will wake up and smell the coffee, if a brand as vanilla as Toyota can actually come back in the sports car game in a way as big as the LFA amidst all their recalls and losses, why cant Honda??

Looks like it's just Nissan for now. Mazda has supposedly been coming back with the RX-7 for years now, kinda like the NSX. Same thing with Toyota and the Supra, it's been years that we've been hearing rumors about a MKV Supra. The LF-A is pretty much vaporware as far as I'm concerned. Of the current offerings, none are true sportscars.

 

[Juice]

I'm sad t say, but I really think the MR design that I love some much is DEAD. Honda still races in Super GT. The rules in Super GT were changed to disallow the NSX platform to compete. Now they have a bastardized Acura Corvette, and it is doing quite well. The HSV is already wrapped up, so it seems the logical next step to release it with a 3.5L hybrid drive train. Not exactly my cup of tea, but prudent and cost efficient.

What I would prefer to see is Acura reenter ALMS with a MR for GT3. Face the music and understand that NA is not efficient and use variable vain turbos. Drop the whole semi-hybrid setup and conclude that the CR-Z is a failure and should not be attempted, EVER AGAIN! Keep focusing on their proprietary studies of bacterial derived bio-ethanol and develop home brew stations that can be sold to households. And turn ASIMO into a Chobit sex bot that brews a decent coffee. :biggrin:

 

[WingZ]

The HSV is already wrapped up, so it seems the logical next step to release it with a 3.5L hybrid drive train. Not exactly my cup of tea, but prudent and cost efficient.

Well first up the 3.5 is what they use in Hondas and Acuras get the 3.7 but still as you say if the CRZ is a failure then a 3.7 and the IMA system would be a waste as IMA and SHAWD would just add way too much weight and kill performance out the box.

The new CEO has pretty much reversed every decision he came in the do saying like "No BEV" and now we have the Fit BEV. No to the new NSX replacement which is the HSV and now he say's

"1. Honda is serious about answering the "voice" of demand to bring the NSX successor to the market.

2. A plan and objective has been set to make the NSX successor commercially available.

3. President Ito has made it clear(apparent) that development of NSX successor has resumed.

I would like to emphasize that the article states that the development HAS resumed! ( it does not say that it will or might, it specifically says it has resumed )."

The above quotes lead me to believe that the HSV project has been restarted. A 3.7 ima would compete with what exactly?? Plus I can't imagine a 0-60 time of under 4 secs which is a must nowadays.

The V10 just needs to be made the most efficient it can and as light as possible to continue on it's road to production. Or Honda could do something that's unconventional for Honda and make a V8:biggrin:

Now that the GTR is selling for $100k and the LFA for $375 Honda can sandwich the HSV in there somewhere with a V10

 

[Honcho]

You know there will never be a V10, Perry. Look for a 3 to 4L V6 with hybrid and SH-AWD. This car, if they actually do make it, will be plenty fast. LFA fast? Probably not, but it won't be $375k either.

 

[gleibig]

My last road & track mag had a nice looking rendition of a new sports car from honda. I forget the details and can't seem to find a pic of it online. I know, I'm full of information. :tongue:

 

[WingZ]

You know there will never be a V10, Perry. Look for a 3 to 4L V6 with hybrid and SH-AWD. This car, if they actually do make it, will be plenty fast. LFA fast? Probably not, but it won't be $375k either.

Well up until a week ago we thought we'd never see the HSV

Of course it depends on what vehicles they target but hybrid and SHAWD is adding pretty much one thousand lbs so it will have to be one or the other.

V10 or V8 or what's the point? Ito says Honda is answering the voice of demand for a road going version but what's the point if it can't at least keep up with its competition on the street?

3.2 was low fours 0-60 car four hundred hp on a 4000lbs hybrid probably about the same so again what would be the point. Plus they would be laughed at.

 

[N Spec]

3.2 was low fours 0-60 car four hundred hp on a 4000lbs hybrid probably about the same so again what would be the point. Plus they would be laughed at.

The CRZ is a hybrid and weighs 2800lbs does it not? I think a 3200 lb AWD Hybrid is doable with considerable weight saving materials and of course it would have to be smaller than the CRZ. The CRZ is kind of tall after all.

This is all speculation of course. Let us hope that patent is true about the V6 Hybrid making 400 hp. A mid-engine NSX sucessor with cutting edge tech is the way to go or a small V8 with cylinder deactivation? lol

 

[WingZ]

The CRZ is a hybrid and weighs 2800lbs does it not? I think a 3200 lb AWD Hybrid is doable with considerable weight saving materials and of course it would have to be smaller than the CRZ. The CRZ is kind of tall after all.

This is all speculation of course. Let us hope that patent is true about the V6 Hybrid making 400 hp. A mid-engine NSX sucessor with cutting edge tech is the way to go or a small V8 with cylinder deactivation? lol

The LFA weighs 3500 plus the CRZ isn't a good comparison as it's smaller than an S2000. Even the CR version of the S2000 weighs 2800 with no AC and radio.

Hybrid AWD is going to heavy. The TL manual with SHAWD is 3800lbs. RL is 4000lbs. I love the idea and even the V10 R8 is almost 3600lbs.

 

[Honcho]

Well up until a week ago we thought we'd never see the HSV

Of course it depends on what vehicles they target but hybrid and SHAWD is adding pretty much one thousand lbs so it will have to be one or the other.

V10 or V8 or what's the point? Ito says Honda is answering the voice of demand for a road going version but what's the point if it can't at least keep up with its competition on the street?

3.2 was low fours 0-60 car four hundred hp on a 4000lbs hybrid probably about the same so again what would be the point. Plus they would be laughed at.

Material science has come a long way since the 1991 NSX. Though it already has the technology/equipment, Honda doesn't need to rely on exotic aluminum alloys these days. If they set a target weight of 3500 lbs, I think it is definitely doable. Your TL example is a great starting point. 3800lbs with a full steel unibody, chassis and panels and all the family sedan accessories. That powertrain is pretty much what this new car is supposed to use in a MR configuration. If you start with a lightweight steel monocoque, you then make the suspension out of aluminum as in the NA1/2, and finally use CF for the body panels. I think this is what Nissan does with the GTR. The real trick here is using some of that Honda engineering knowhow to get that steel unibody as light and strong as possible. Assuming you pick up ~500 lbs this way, you're down to 3300lbs for the TL chassis. That leaves room for the hybrid system.

Also, I am assuming Honda is going to use their next-gen V6 and hybrid system, which will undoubtedly be lighter than the current generation IMA system and J-Series V6. I think they can get to 450hp and 3500 lbs for under $75,000 MSRP. Another good weight saver is to stick with a manual transmission. Those dual clutch F1 boxes are heavy!.

 

[WingZ]

Material science has come a long way since the 1991 NSX. Though it already has the technology/equipment, Honda doesn't need to rely on exotic aluminum alloys these days. If they set a target weight of 3500 lbs, I think it is definitely doable. Your TL example is a great starting point. 3800lbs with a full steel unibody, chassis and panels and all the family sedan accessories. That powertrain is pretty much what this new car is supposed to use in a MR configuration. If you start with a lightweight steel monocoque, you then make the suspension out of aluminum as in the NA1/2, and finally use CF for the body panels. I think this is what Nissan does with the GTR. The real trick here is using some of that Honda engineering knowhow to get that steel unibody as light and strong as possible. Assuming you pick up ~500 lbs this way, you're down to 3300lbs for the TL chassis. That leaves room for the hybrid system.

Also, I am assuming Honda is going to use their next-gen V6 and hybrid system, which will undoubtedly be lighter than the current generation IMA system and J-Series V6. I think they can get to 450hp and 3500 lbs for under $75,000 MSRP. Another good weight saver is to stick with a manual transmission. Those dual clutch F1 boxes are heavy!.

Well but again the LFA is full CF and aluminum suspension and weighs in at 3500. The V10 they use weighs as much as a V6. Keeping that in mind there's no way a V6 AWD hybrid is going to come in at 3500.

Also no way the car will be $75k with CF body panels. Look at how much the Lotus Evora costs w/o them using a Camry engine. I think we need to be realistic that if we get a good car it will be at least $100k.

Also from everything I've seen and one of our Honda insiders confirmed that reverse Accord is not the NSX. The announcement that Ito made clarifies this as they plan to restart the HSV/NSX vehicle and bring it to market.

I honestly don't know what powertrain they'll use but the V10 still makes the most sense and use some Honda know how to bring it's fuel economy up past it's peers while keep the weight between 3700-3900 lbs. I'm sure they'll use the 8 speed DSG they developed for the car as that's the best chance for fuel economy as well a launch control to keep up with it's peers.

 

[WingZ]

Well but again the LFA is full CF and aluminum suspension and weighs in at 3500. The V10 they use weighs as much as a V6. Keeping that in mind there's no way a V6 AWD hybrid is going to come in at 3500.

Also no way the car will be $75k with CF body panels. Look at how much the Lotus Evora costs w/o them using a Camry engine. I think we need to be realistic that if we get a good car it will be at least $100k.

Also from everything I've seen and one of our Honda insiders confirmed that reverse Accord is not the NSX. The announcement that Ito made clarifies this as they plan to restart the HSV/NSX vehicle and bring it to market.

I honestly don't know what powertrain they'll use but the V10 still makes the most sense and use some Honda know how to bring it's fuel economy up past it's peers while keep the weight between 3700-3900 lbs. I'm sure they'll use the 8 speed DSG they developed for the car as that's the best chance for fuel economy as well a launch control to keep up with it's peers.

Here it is gang based on the HSV not a flipped accord.

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201102060128.html

 

[Honcho]

Well but again the LFA is full CF and aluminum suspension and weighs in at 3500. The V10 they use weighs as much as a V6. Keeping that in mind there's no way a V6 AWD hybrid is going to come in at 3500.

Also no way the car will be $75k with CF body panels. Look at how much the Lotus Evora costs w/o them using a Camry engine. I think we need to be realistic that if we get a good car it will be at least $100k.

Also from everything I've seen and one of our Honda insiders confirmed that reverse Accord is not the NSX. The announcement that Ito made clarifies this as they plan to restart the HSV/NSX vehicle and bring it to market.

I honestly don't know what powertrain they'll use but the V10 still makes the most sense and use some Honda know how to bring it's fuel economy up past it's peers while keep the weight between 3700-3900 lbs. I'm sure they'll use the 8 speed DSG they developed for the car as that's the best chance for fuel economy as well a launch control to keep up with it's peers.

I don't know, Perry, CF isn't as exotic these days as it was 15 or 20 years ago. I understand the super high tech CNC-like weave process Toyota uses for the LFA is big bucks, but heck, there are aftermarket folks out there like Downforce, BYS, etc making CF hoods, trunks and body panels fairly cheaply. At this point, I'm sure Honda could mass produce the parts. I think it's possible and I hope that you're wrong about the cost. If Honda wants to be successful, they need to target the M3, C6, 997 market.

 

[WingZ]

I don't know, Perry, CF isn't as exotic these days as it was 15 or 20 years ago. I understand the super high tech CNC-like weave process Toyota uses for the LFA is big bucks, but heck, there are aftermarket folks out there like Downforce, BYS, etc making CF hoods, trunks and body panels fairly cheaply. At this point, I'm sure Honda could mass produce the parts. I think it's possible and I hope that you're wrong about the cost. If Honda wants to be successful, they need to target the M3, C6, 997 market.

Agreed but what they make doesn't have to pass any crash tests or under go the severe range of testing that manufacturers put they're vehicles through.

Plus the fit and finish on those parts isn't always that great. If Honda targets those vehicles then people will complain "how come you couldn't make another super car?" Sounds like they want to do two cars from the last article I read and current Ito interpretation. Getting really confusing now.

 

[tbromley]

I don't know, Perry, CF isn't as exotic these days as it was 15 or 20 years ago. I understand the super high tech CNC-like weave process Toyota uses for the LFA is big bucks, but heck, there are aftermarket folks out there like Downforce, BYS, etc making CF hoods, trunks and body panels fairly cheaply. At this point, I'm sure Honda could mass produce the parts. I think it's possible and I hope that you're wrong about the cost. If Honda wants to be successful, they need to target the M3, C6, 997 market.

I've read thru this thread and what Honcho and Wing have said and I have to agree with Honcho. Acura is not Lamorgini, Aston Martin or Ferrari or LFA seekers for that matter. I mean the R8 V10 gave the LFA such a battle on TV with Battle of the super cars - that I doubt if Honda is going anywhere near the LFA design or cost. However, Porsches 911s surely cost about 85k for the base model. The M cars from BMW cost around 65 to 75 but really don't quite fit the 911 mold and the R8 is about the 911 cost. Acura is going to have to come in somewhere around that 75k to 80k price range to sell.

Hell they don't even sell the LFA - they lease it with buy after 2 years. I believe they are testing the market for a super car and I doubt if the production will ever be over a 2 or 3 year run. If it is I'll be amazed. BTW I saw my first one on the road last weekend at Caffiene and Octaine and I heard it too - F'ing AWESOME - that sound - man it would be worth leasing just to hear that if IF I had the money. I will never have the money.

So I believe I remember somewhere reading something from the Japanese spokes person that they will have to stay with this idea of not being on par with the GT racer level engine and go somewhat less in the street version. I believe that's what I read.

Anyway it will be intersting to see what this HSV is all about in street form - it looks better to me than some of the other concepts and the car they may have been testing at the ring. One of the things I believe they were having problems doing was getting below or to 7.5 at the ring.

 

[WingZ]

I've read thru this thread and what Honcho and Wing have said and I have to agree with Honcho. Acura is not Lamorgini, Aston Martin or Ferrari or LFA seekers for that matter. I mean the R8 V10 gave the LFA such a battle on TV with Battle of the super cars - that I doubt if Honda is going anywhere near the LFA design or cost. However, Porsches 911s surely cost about 85k for the base model. The M cars from BMW cost around 65 to 75 but really don't quite fit the 911 mold and the R8 is about the 911 cost. Acura is going to have to come in somewhere around that 75k to 80k price range to sell.

Hell they don't even sell the LFA - they lease it with buy after 2 years. I believe they are testing the market for a super car and I doubt if the production will ever be over a 2 or 3 year run. If it is I'll be amazed. BTW I saw my first one on the road last weekend at Caffiene and Octaine and I heard it too - F'ing AWESOME - that sound - man it would be worth leasing just to hear that if IF I had the money. I will never have the money.

So I believe I remember somewhere reading something from the Japanese spokes person that they will have to stay with this idea of not being on par with the GT racer level engine and go somewhat less in the street version. I believe that's what I read.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what this HSV is all about in street form - it looks better to me than some of the other concepts and the car they may have been testing at the ring. One of the things I believe they were having problems doing was getting below or to 7.5 at the ring.

Well counsel will more than likely get his wish as more details come out it appears instead of a supercar version of the HSV we're going to get a GT version.

I've not heard whether the M3 will be the target but if they do I'm fine with that ,BUT the next M3 is about to land in what two years?? Let's not forget the next M3 will be putting down 500hp with twin turbo V8. It's basically the same as going after the 458. Not that Honda of old couldn't do it but current Honda???

As far as the LFA goes yeah the sound is intoxicating as was the sound of the V10 Honda had in the works:frown: The LFA was set as a lease so people wouldn't buy and then turn around and sell at a higher price.

 

[Silver F16]

The LFA lease program is no longer a mandate. One can now buy the car outright.