purchasing dilemma...

[DV8]

Here's the deal, I'm in the process of purchasing an older model NSX from out of state and I'm very close to closing the deal upon a PPI. I've ran a carfax and it did indicate that it's been in two accidents, one in '92 and the last one in '97. However knowing this, I'm getting a pretty good deal on the car since it has low miles and various other desirable parts, but I'm very weary of any type of unibody frame substructure damage. I talked to a dealer in the state of purchase that would perform the PPI and they really didn't have very many suggestions as to determine any type of substructure frame damage, except for having the car aligned. After I hung up with them I called Brookfield Acura (where I would take it to get serviced if I bought the car), spoke to a technician there and was shortly connected with John Vasos. I gotta tell you the guy was more than extremely helpful as he was knowledable about the NSX. I must've been on the phone with him for about a half hour as he explained the intracasies of the unibody frame substructure and how difficult it would be for a shop with little experience dealing with NSX's to determine. I truly do not think he was bashing them by any means, just being straight forth honest.

Here's the dilema - would you have peace of mind in purchasing a car that was inspected and aligned (assuming everything checked out) at a dealer with questionable experience determining substructure damage on an NSX or would you carry on and continue searching for another vehicle?

The owner has been extremely helpful throughout the process and seems like an honest guy. I would not want to see a good deal get away like this, however this is a very serious purchase and I do not want to end up owning a car with substructure damage hence jepardizing the handling characteristics. John also mentioned that most owners that have substructure damage are not aware of it. I don't want this to be the case. Would love to hear your thoughts.

I have not disclosed specific information in repect to the owner.

 

[MJK]

Here's the dilema - would you have peace of mind in purchasing a car that was inspected and aligned (assuming everything checked out) at a dealer with questionable experience determining substructure damage on an NSX or would you carry on and continue searching for another vehicle?

Sounds like a decent enough owner, but I would keep shopping. Get what you want, keep it and be happy. I'd advise that even if it were not the color you wanted, let alone 2 wrecks with unknown repairs.

$.02

 

[my1stnsx]

honestly, I would keep looking for another car because if you ever decide to sell it, it's not gonna sale well in the future. I would rather wait and buy a car thats well maintain and never been in an accident so that way I don't ever have to about worry it. It's not worth to buy a car thats been in two accidents. You might have to shell out more money to fix the problems, so in the long run it might cost more money to fix it than buy a car that doesnt have any problems or been in an accident.

 

[NsXMas]

Does the previous owner have photos of the accident/damage from the 2 accidents?

Does he/she have insurance records, police reports, repair shop records for the repair?

If the repairs were done right, and the accidents didn't do too severe of a damage, I don't see why you should pass on the car, especially if the price is right.

If you can't get that information, then assume the worst and act upon that assumption.

NSXs are rare, and if you want an accident free NSX, you best buy one from a friend who has had one, as an original owner.

A carfax that shows no car accident is no guarantee that an accident never happened.

I'd rather buy an NSX from a straight-forward owner who has all the records, than from someone who has no information on their NSX and can't tell you squat about the car.

Good luck.

 

[blavenia]

Without knowing the details, it would have to be an amazing deal to even consider. I've always felt there are always other cars or motorcycles that will cross your path in your life. 2 accidents could have been serious, or fender benders. You would think if the accidents were small, they would not have been reported.

I think you always have to consider resale value, and it will be VERY hard to resell this car. There will certainly be another good deal to come your way. I'm sure of it.

Let us know what you decide.

b

 

[nsxtasy]

would you have peace of mind in purchasing a car that was inspected and aligned (assuming everything checked out) at a dealer with questionable experience determining substructure damage on an NSX or would you carry on and continue searching for another vehicle?

I would instead choose Door Number 3, Monty! I would arrange for a second pre-purchase inspection, but this time by a body shop in the area with a lot of experience repairing NSXs. Just as experienced dealers tend to be very good at determining mechanical condition (and experienced detailers tend to be very good at determining aesthetic condition), experienced body shops tend to be very good at determining structural condition.

HTH - good luck!

 

[DV8]

I would instead choose Door Number 3, Monty! I would arrange for a second pre-purchase inspection, but this time by a body shop in the area with a lot of experience repairing NSXs. Just as experienced dealers tend to be very good at determining mechanical condition (and experienced detailers tend to be very good at determining aesthetic condition), experienced body shops tend to be very good at determining structural condition.

HTH - good luck!

Yes, I would love to go with this option, unfortunately there's no experienced dealers within a 200 mile radius :frown:

Thanks for all the input guys, some very good points. :smile: Guess, I've got some deciding to do quick!

 

[ak]

You get what you pay for.

 

[Big_nate]

I have not disclosed specific information in repect to the owner.

What would have been more respectful to the owner would have been NOT committing to buy the car and then flaking out on the decision.

Your bullshitting has cost me money, plain and simple, with the loss of other potential buyers while the car was 'Sold' to you. I probably wrote ten pages in response to your questions, took photos of everything you asked for, agreed to all inspection stipulations, offered to drive 4 hours out of my way for your convenience, took the car off the market on your word and written commitment to buy and still you screwed me!

SELLERS-----BEWARE THIS BUYER. His initials are the first two letters of his screen name and he is in Wisconsin. He will waste your time and eventually find an excuse to weasel out of the deal.

Thanks for wasting my time David good luck on finding your car

 

[nsxtasy]

Yes, I would love to go with this option, unfortunately there's no experienced dealers within a 200 mile radius :frown:

Baloney. Based on this topic, there's a good body shop with NSX experience in the same town where the seller is located.

 

[DV8]

Don't tell lies. You might get caught.

I stand true to my word. And I did NOT lie. I've PM'd you with details. No need in taking this public.

 

[Big_nate]

I stand true to my word. And I did NOT lie. I've PM'd you with details. No need in taking this public.

Oh really?? But I guess you don't stand true to this;
Text from your e-mail on Feb 9

If that's possible I'm happy to say
that we have a deal and I will be taking your offer
granted that we could arrange for pre-purchase
inspection first.

Shall I post up a copy of the Bill of Sale you faxed to me?

You swore up and down to me that the car was sold and I could take it off the market. Your word means bupkus.

I stand by my word;

SELLERS-----BEWARE THIS BUYER. His initials are the first two letters of his screen name and he is in Wisconsin. He will waste your time and eventually find an excuse to weasel out of the deal.

 

[DV8]

What would have been more respectful to the owner would have been NOT committing to buy the car and then flaking out on the decision.

Your bullshitting has cost me money, plain and simple, with the loss of other potential buyers while the car was 'Sold' to you. I probably wrote ten pages in response to your questions, took photos of everything you asked for, agreed to all inspection stipulations, offered to drive 4 hours out of my way for your convenience, took the car off the market on your word and written commitment to buy and still you screwed me!

SELLERS-----BEWARE THIS BUYER. His initials are the first two letters of his screen name and he is in Wisconsin. He will waste your time and eventually find an excuse to weasel out of the deal.

Thanks for wasting my time David good luck on finding your car

Well, I’m sorry it had to dragged out like this but the truth is that coming into this deal I was under the assumption that if it would pass a thorough inspection by a body shop for any frame damage that the car would check out and I would have peace of mind. I found out after talking with John that it was not such a black and white situation. If I am guilty of anything then it is being negligent about the construction of the NSX. If the car were to pass inspection by an untrained eye and then brought to an NSX specialty shop, in this case Brookfield Acura, and later found out that it did have any type of damage to the substructure, the costs of repairs could be catastrophical, not to mention it could never be brought back to OEM specs. I am not all saying that your car is indefinitely damaged but without a qualified technician looking at it, no one could ever be sure.
I have learned a great deal about the car in a short amount of time and I wish I could’ve known then what I know now… I'm sorry it had to turn out this ugly.

 

[DV8]

Oh really?? But I guess you don't stand true to this;
Text from your e-mail on Feb 9

If that's possible I'm happy to say
that we have a deal and I will be taking your offer
granted that we could arrange for pre-purchase
inspection first.

Note the red text.

 

[Big_nate]

Note the red text.

We did arrange for that. You and I were in full agreement that the car would go to the dealer of your choice in INDIANAPOLIS. You then come up with the BS excuse that John Vassos is the only person who can tell you if the car is straight so the inspection will have to be in Wisconsin.

You came up with an excuse to get out of a deal you had made. Be a man and admit it.

Oh and I'm sure the 'catastrophical' repairs you're sure are lurking are about to pop up any day now, what with the accident being, oh, 14 YEARS AGO

SELLERS-----BEWARE THIS BUYER. His initials are the first two letters of his screen name and he is in Wisconsin. He will waste your time and eventually find an excuse to weasel out of the deal.

 

[DV8]

We did arrange for that. You and I were in full agreement that the car would go to the dealer of your choice in INDIANAPOLIS. You then come up with the BS excuse that John Vassos is the only person who can tell you if the car is straight so the inspection will have to be in Wisconsin.

You came up with an excuse to get out of a deal you had made. Be a man and admit it.

Oh and I'm sure the 'catastrophical' repairs you're sure are lurking are about to pop up any day now, what with the accident being, oh, 14 YEARS AGO

SELLERS-----BEWARE THIS BUYER. His initials are the first two letters of his screen name and he is in Wisconsin. He will waste your time and eventually find an excuse to weasel out of the deal.

What I learned about the car's substructure and how fragile it was is when I was talking to the dealer to set up the inspection in the first place. As I said before I thought it was a black and white deal: inspection + put on frame rack --> everything checks out, no frame damage. Found out this was not the case as I talked the technician at Penske. He said it would be extremely difficult to determine, even when the car is placed on the frame rack, if there was any damage. I learned even more, when I called Brookfield that cars could never be brought back to OEM specs. I am no NSX expert, but now I know why everyone stays away from NSX's that are involved in accidents. Just to clarify, yes, the first accident was 14 years ago...

 

[NSX-Tuner]

Talk about laundering dirty laundry in public. :shaking-head: PM is your friend.

But I'm curious now, what was the extent of each accident, what had to be repaired and/or replaced and what did it cost to fix?

 

[Big_nate]

, when I called Brookfield that cars could never be brought back to OEM specs. .

OH, I see. That mysterious unmeasurable 'OEM spec' that can never be determined. Ah yes, now it all makes perfect sense.

Heres a question for you then. If its impossible to tell if the car has ever been in accident, how will you know? Can you prove a negative? If a tree falls in the woods........

You're making excuses for why you welched on our deal. You're not being true to your word. Karma's a bitch.

 

[DV8]

You're making excuses for why you welched on our deal. You're not being true to your word. Karma's a bitch.

Am, I? I've explained more than once of my concern with the frame damage (hence this thread) and my negligence in the beginning. HAD I known all this in the beginning, I would not have even considered your car. I'm sorry if my "excuses", as you so call put it, are not good enough for you.

 

[TyraNSX]

Sounds like you are talking about 2 different things. The frame rack will not tell you if the car was damaged unless it somehow falls outside of specs and indicates a problem. Or while on the rack someone spots signs of past repairs. The rack is not a time machine. You both know the car had some sort of damage in the past so this should not even be an issue.

If it was damaged & repaired and falls within specs, then it is now straight and shouldn't be a problem. Thus, it would have passed your frame rack inspection & you would buy it. Without the knowledge of its past or someone spotting repair work, you would never know it had been damaged. The rack tells you if the car is straight, not that it wasn't at some point in its past.

I would have gotten the car aligned first. If it is alignable to within the alignment specs, you are probably done & the car is good. If it was not alignable to within alignment specs or you are just being really cautious, THEN throw it on the frame machine. The rack doesn't lie. Either the car is straight & true at all measuring points & dimensions, or it isn't. It shouldn't matter whose rack it is, as long as they mount the car properly & have the correct specs & measuring points to go by. If it was off, then don't buy it. Sounds like you never took this step.

Better to spend ~$100 on the alignment & ~$300 on the rack then to buy a problem. And if it checks out, then peace of mind has value too.

I guess pbassjo would be an expert on NSXs and frame machines, see what he thinks.

I hope this turns out ok for the seller & that you find a car you like. Not choosing sides, just my 2 cents.

 

[DV8]

Sounds like you are talking about 2 different things. The frame rack will not tell you if the car was damaged unless it somehow falls outside of specs and indicates a problem. Or while on the rack someone spots signs of past repairs. The rack is not a time machine. You both know the car had some sort of damage in the past so this should not even be an issue.

If it was damaged & repaired and falls within specs, then it is now straight and shouldn't be a problem. Thus, it would have passed your frame rack inspection & you would buy it. Without the knowledge of its past or someone spotting repair work, you would never know it had been damaged. The rack tells you if the car is straight, not that it wasn't at some point in its past.

I would have gotten the car aligned first. If it is alignable to within the alignment specs, you are probably done & the car is good. If it was not alignable to within alignment specs or you are just being really cautious, THEN throw it on the frame machine. The rack doesn't lie. Either the car is straight & true at all measuring points & dimensions, or it isn't. It shouldn't matter whose rack it is, as long as they mount the car properly & have the correct specs & measuring points to go by. If it was off, then don't buy it. Sounds like you never took this step.

Better to spend ~$100 on the alignment & ~$300 on the rack then to buy a problem. And if it checks out, then peace of mind has value too.

I guess pbassjo would be an expert on NSXs and frame machines, see what he thinks.

I hope this turns out ok for the seller & that you find a car you like. Not choosing sides, just my 2 cents.

TryaNSX, thanks for the input. Initially that was my plan to have it put on the frame rack but tech said that the car would have to be left over a couple of days as they were servicing other cars ahead. Even then he said that this would not determine any damage and just suggested that the car be put through an alignment. I didn’t want to go into this blindly so I called Brookfield and was connected with John. He said that even with repairs done that the car’s handling characteristics and drivability could suffer and most owners with damage are not aware of it because they have not driven an NSX to spec. He told me that they have a number of checks which they go through to inspect for any type of damage which means taking apart some of the parts of the car. This is because they have dealt with a number of NSX’s through out the years.
Again, I am not an expert or technician so I’ll take all the help I can get. I felt that John was the most helpful and knowledgeable about the NSX and also felt that he was a true professional. I have learned so much from this forum and its members. I now know what I am looking for, all the questions to ask and steps to take in order to see an NSX in my garage.:biggrin:

 

[blavenia]

I want to know what the price was that was agreed upon in the deal. I've bought and sold a lot of things in the past, and am smart enough to know that if someone has that many questions he's probably not the real buyer. I also know it's not sold until I have the money and the car drives away. Was someone making out really well on this deal or getting burned enough to warrant the killing of this deal?

B