As there has been a lot of discussion on Nos systems and replacement after market ECU’s I just wanted to ask everyone’s thoughts about specifically mapping for “On-Gas” profiles. This is something I have seen much more other side of the Atlantic and in the Australasian arenas.
I am interested in the what’s available right now on the leading edge if not the bleeding edge. And whether anyone has taken advantage of these technologies within the NSX tuning arena ? Bad Carma, Guttiens, Gerry Johnson, etc
My experience has been that A fully mappable ECU ( AEM, Motec, etc not tec3 or SS ) usually has enough sites or the specific functionality to generate an enriched fuel map and control Ignition retard when one is spraying .
And that in conjunction with a safe well installed direct port Wet system a real alternative over FI methods for big HP could be achieved without deviating significantly from the character of the car .
Imagine the use of an improved bottom end like the new FX3.5l with a well sorted IHE setup and pulse modulated N20 all controlled by the ECU for perfect reliable delivery.
With additional investigation of individual throttle bodies( I think you guys call them velocity stacks ) that would be one sweet engined NSX.
It would drive politely as a Japanese Schoolgirl every day of the week but have incredible power just when you need it.
Just to ensure clarity I personally am not really interested in the discussions of piggyback systems or other techniques to “fool” the ECU into enrichment or kidding a bout with 7th injectors etc.To me they are not true solutions but are just bodging and fudging the issues and have no place in a technically pure car like the NSX.
I have also seen a lot of crazy Japanese stuff that the Midnight racer guys love but its all HKS, G-reddy flashing lightshow stuff like the tricked out imports on Fast & Furious
I would like something discreet but purposeful, the 3.5l bottom end is not visibly different from stock and an under the manifold directport system could be concealed from all but the most NSX savvy of inspectors. From what the guys on this board have discussed the kind of numbers I believe should be easily achievable are 300 RWBHP day to day with up to an additional 150 on tap for Mr Wolf style emergencies when required.
For any ultimate system it seems clear to me that to try to do Nos without having full contol over the fueling seems like luanacy, and can’t be the way forward.
Theerfore ECU and N2O are destined to work together.
Recent threads on the topics discuss various options, but noone seems to have mentioned the progressive systems
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23985
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24033
I love Nitrous Oxide systems as a concept and from the technology side it’s a remarkably rewarding challenge to achieve the kind of value from HP gains that N2O is capable of both safely and reliably.
As long as its well installed ( fuel pressure cutoffs, W.O.T switches and line purge etc ) and safe and reliable ( thermo controlled bottle heater, bottle pressure remote sense and opener valve ) gas can beat most other forms of tuning $ for $ hands down .
This only applies for most kinds of street race, fixed dist drags or in gear times, its obviously little or no use for circuit racing or duration events but where its allowed hillclimb, 0-60 etc its a real competitive advantage.
The things that haven’t been mentioned much which really made the difference for a lot of racers I have worked with were the progressive nitrous ECU controllers.
When used with the best setups, almost exclusively wet direct port systems these provided far superior drivability and reliability over the big hit or the multi-staged systems.
As the NSX fuel system is designed to work continuously variably rather than simple on or off so why should the N2O and fuel enrichment system be any different.
A binary system is never right ( its always a limited compromise )
This is how it could work.
When set up correctly and providing all safety conditions are met i.e.
N2O bottle Pressure ok
N2O bottle Temp ok
system fuel pressure ok
N2O line pressure ok.
N2O system enabled and armed
Wide Open Throttle switch OK ---- let it rip !
The following occurs
As the rpm exceeds a defined threshold the solenoids are started pulsing ( usually PWM ) at a very low mark space ratio.
This ratio of on to off time controls the delivery of both additional fuel and the N2O gas into the intakes fully progressively so that there is no large surge but the gas is fed in at the correct ratio in an increasing amount until the solenoids are fully open.
This can be time based delivery in the cruder systems or integrated with the ECU in the more advanced competition systems that way the cars ECU can actually be mapped for the "on gas" profile with the ignition retarded at the appropriate load sites as well as the fuelling from the stock car injectors also enriched where appropriate.
The debate about wet or dry depends on the system installed, a well sorted dry system ( like Bad Carmas is infinitely preferable to a poorly thought through wet system at any power level )
but at above 50bhp one should start looking to the future and question haw far is this system likely to be expanded, if the answer is “not much” then dry is usually the cheapest way.
One should also consider the spare capacity on the standard fuel injectors as a dry kit that intends to fool the ecu into delivering more fuel runs a risk of over driving the injector and not being able to deliver the fuel required..... not good.
Something else to consider is the location of the jetting, a lot of modern kits put the jets in the nozzles ( hell most people aren't even aware of the difference ) but the ideal place for the jets is at the solenoids, this is much better for accurate metering but will significantly improve reliability of gas delivery in hot climates or hot engine bay systems.
Long Live NSX's worldwide.
Max
Kaiser Silver JDM NSX
Carbon Intake,Mugen Hearders, short gears
Avantgard4,Focal,Empeg 40GB,802.11g
I am interested in the what’s available right now on the leading edge if not the bleeding edge. And whether anyone has taken advantage of these technologies within the NSX tuning arena ? Bad Carma, Guttiens, Gerry Johnson, etc
My experience has been that A fully mappable ECU ( AEM, Motec, etc not tec3 or SS ) usually has enough sites or the specific functionality to generate an enriched fuel map and control Ignition retard when one is spraying .
And that in conjunction with a safe well installed direct port Wet system a real alternative over FI methods for big HP could be achieved without deviating significantly from the character of the car .
Imagine the use of an improved bottom end like the new FX3.5l with a well sorted IHE setup and pulse modulated N20 all controlled by the ECU for perfect reliable delivery.
With additional investigation of individual throttle bodies( I think you guys call them velocity stacks ) that would be one sweet engined NSX.
It would drive politely as a Japanese Schoolgirl every day of the week but have incredible power just when you need it.
Just to ensure clarity I personally am not really interested in the discussions of piggyback systems or other techniques to “fool” the ECU into enrichment or kidding a bout with 7th injectors etc.To me they are not true solutions but are just bodging and fudging the issues and have no place in a technically pure car like the NSX.
I have also seen a lot of crazy Japanese stuff that the Midnight racer guys love but its all HKS, G-reddy flashing lightshow stuff like the tricked out imports on Fast & Furious
I would like something discreet but purposeful, the 3.5l bottom end is not visibly different from stock and an under the manifold directport system could be concealed from all but the most NSX savvy of inspectors. From what the guys on this board have discussed the kind of numbers I believe should be easily achievable are 300 RWBHP day to day with up to an additional 150 on tap for Mr Wolf style emergencies when required.
For any ultimate system it seems clear to me that to try to do Nos without having full contol over the fueling seems like luanacy, and can’t be the way forward.
Theerfore ECU and N2O are destined to work together.
Recent threads on the topics discuss various options, but noone seems to have mentioned the progressive systems
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23985
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24033
I love Nitrous Oxide systems as a concept and from the technology side it’s a remarkably rewarding challenge to achieve the kind of value from HP gains that N2O is capable of both safely and reliably.
As long as its well installed ( fuel pressure cutoffs, W.O.T switches and line purge etc ) and safe and reliable ( thermo controlled bottle heater, bottle pressure remote sense and opener valve ) gas can beat most other forms of tuning $ for $ hands down .
This only applies for most kinds of street race, fixed dist drags or in gear times, its obviously little or no use for circuit racing or duration events but where its allowed hillclimb, 0-60 etc its a real competitive advantage.
The things that haven’t been mentioned much which really made the difference for a lot of racers I have worked with were the progressive nitrous ECU controllers.
When used with the best setups, almost exclusively wet direct port systems these provided far superior drivability and reliability over the big hit or the multi-staged systems.
As the NSX fuel system is designed to work continuously variably rather than simple on or off so why should the N2O and fuel enrichment system be any different.
A binary system is never right ( its always a limited compromise )
This is how it could work.
When set up correctly and providing all safety conditions are met i.e.
N2O bottle Pressure ok
N2O bottle Temp ok
system fuel pressure ok
N2O line pressure ok.
N2O system enabled and armed
Wide Open Throttle switch OK ---- let it rip !
The following occurs
As the rpm exceeds a defined threshold the solenoids are started pulsing ( usually PWM ) at a very low mark space ratio.
This ratio of on to off time controls the delivery of both additional fuel and the N2O gas into the intakes fully progressively so that there is no large surge but the gas is fed in at the correct ratio in an increasing amount until the solenoids are fully open.
This can be time based delivery in the cruder systems or integrated with the ECU in the more advanced competition systems that way the cars ECU can actually be mapped for the "on gas" profile with the ignition retarded at the appropriate load sites as well as the fuelling from the stock car injectors also enriched where appropriate.
The debate about wet or dry depends on the system installed, a well sorted dry system ( like Bad Carmas is infinitely preferable to a poorly thought through wet system at any power level )
but at above 50bhp one should start looking to the future and question haw far is this system likely to be expanded, if the answer is “not much” then dry is usually the cheapest way.
One should also consider the spare capacity on the standard fuel injectors as a dry kit that intends to fool the ecu into delivering more fuel runs a risk of over driving the injector and not being able to deliver the fuel required..... not good.
Something else to consider is the location of the jetting, a lot of modern kits put the jets in the nozzles ( hell most people aren't even aware of the difference ) but the ideal place for the jets is at the solenoids, this is much better for accurate metering but will significantly improve reliability of gas delivery in hot climates or hot engine bay systems.
Long Live NSX's worldwide.
Max
Kaiser Silver JDM NSX
Carbon Intake,Mugen Hearders, short gears
Avantgard4,Focal,Empeg 40GB,802.11g
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