Production HSV-010 GT as a 370z Competitior?

[sporteknik]

Production HSV-010 GT Scaled-Down from Luxury V-10 GT?

At the moment many of us NSX enthusiasts are elated to see Honda's new GT500 entrant the HSV-010 GT. We have been told by many journalists and online posters to hold back our excitement, as the HSV-010 GT will be a race-only vehicle without a production counterpart. However, the HSV-010 GT is competing in Super GT under a rule that allows for production-ready cars. Therefore, Honda will be required at some point to release a production version of the HSV-010 GT.

Evidence is beginning to coalesce, that Honda is looking to take the production HSV-010 GT in a radically different direction from the original NSX as well as its planned replacement.

In a conversation this past August with Car and Driver Magazine, John Watts, the senior manager of product development for Acura, said the NSX as planned was "too high a halo," but a scaled-down version of the NSX is still a prospect.

According to Watts, "For it to be fully effective, it couldn't be too far removed" from Honda's other products. In an automotive market place that has become highly focused on fuel efficiency, Honda probably couldn't afford the negative publicity of releasing a V-10 powered GT-R fighter.

In all likelihood, a scaled down Acura sports car would be a Nissan 370Z competitor.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6569637/news/acura-nsx-on-again-as-370z-competitor/index.html

From statements made by Takanobu Ito, that when the economy improves, Honda will most definitely not be going with V-10s like Toyota, we can assume when the production HSV-010 GT arrives it will not sport the V-10 found in the Nürburgring prototype.

Furthermore, Honda as well as prospective buyers will want the production version of the HSV-010 GT to sport an engine that is similar to or derived from the Super GT HSV-010 GT's V8.

Lastly, a V8 is less likely to stir up controversy than a V10 from an company committed to producing fuel efficient vehicles.


Another force at play are the requirements of the GT-Association (GT-A). When Honda/Acura went to the drawing board for the NSX replacement they wanted a strong association between the racing HSV-010 GT and the production HSV-010 GT, which is why they developed both vehicles simultaneously.

A production HSV-010 GT loosely based on the racing HSV-010 GT, would likely be V8 powered, FR layout and less focused on luxury (especially given Honda's decision to abandon it's "Tier One" goal for Acura). Think more high powered hardtop S2000 CR than V-10 powered luxury GT.

With these changes it's more an likely the "NSX" name will be dropped and replaced with another nameplate.

Given all of these factors, it would appear as though this new vehicle will be more affordable, and if it's possible more racing focused than the original NSX.

 

[Juice]

Well, it certainly looks more like a S2000 than a NSX. Even the mule was a S2000.

I agree that the NSX moniker need to be retired. Until Honda builds another MR halo, they need to leave "NSX" alone.

 

[6spdterror]

I dont care what they call it just as long as they come out with something and not be like Toyota with their vanilla lineup lacking sportscars.

 

[MaxGeek]

I'm thinking it would be great if it was more on the lines of an M3 in the $60K territory. FR, V8 ~400HP, steel chassis with Aluminum/composite hood and front fenders, hopefully around 3200lbs or less. Make it a sporty practical daily driver with good reliability and reasonable maintenance cost. Don't call it an NSX.

 

[swbatte]

Make something people can afford, or aspire to, and buy used - then modify the S@#t out of it!

 

[AR]

They got to price it GTR/Z06/997 or it will be another commercial flop overhere.

 

[redfox]

I would like to see something come out that is affordable. My guess is with the current economy that just may be the case.

 

[Jin1976]

I hope it is affordable and a bit more practical 2+2 so I could bring along my future family but still enjoy the sportiness of the car. Could care less about the gas as it is cheaper here than water.

 

[Honcho]

I once again refer Honda to the Honcho/WingZ NSX recovery plan. I am amending the plan to include a ~ $60k FR GT cruiser based on the HSV with Honda's new V6 in development. Like AR said, aim for the GT-R/Z06/997 crowd. Porsche has made millions using 6 cylinder engines, Honda can too.

For the GT, I would use a 3.2 liter with i-VTEC on intake and exhaust, high-flow heads and a 9000rpm redline. Tune the exhaust to sound right and Honda will sell a ton of them.

Once the GT is successful, dust off the HSC and drop the 3.2 into it as the 3rd gen NSX at $59,999. Do a Type-S a year later with 3.5 liters at ~$75k and then a Type-R with a HSV-derived V8 at ~$90k. If Honda can keep the base model around $60k, it will sell lots of NSX's. Price creep killed that car in the 90's.

Base model: 3.2L 350 Crank HP 3100 lbs $59,999
Type-S: 3.5L 390 Crank HP 3000 lbs $74,999
Type-R: 3.6L 440 Crank HP (V8) 2900 lbs $90,999

Just do it, Honda!

 

[BluryNSX]

I once again refer Honda to the Honcho/WingZ NSX recovery plan. I am amending the plan to include a ~ $60k FR GT cruiser based on the HSV with Honda's new V6 in development. Like AR said, aim for the GT-R/Z06/997 crowd. Porsche has made millions using 6 cylinder engines, Honda can too.

For the GT, I would use a 3.2 liter with i-VTEC on intake and exhaust, high-flow heads and a 9000rpm redline. Tune the exhaust to sound right and Honda will sell a ton of them.

Once the GT is successful, dust off the HSC and drop the 3.2 into it as the 3rd gen NSX at $59,999. Do a Type-S a year later with 3.5 liters at ~$75k and then a Type-R with a HSV-derived V8 at ~$90k. If Honda can keep the base model around $60k, it will sell lots of NSX's. Price creep killed that car in the 90's.

Base model: 3.2L 350 Crank HP 3100 lbs $59,999
Type-S: 3.5L 390 Crank HP 3000 lbs $74,999
Type-R: 3.6L 440 Crank HP (V8) 2900 lbs $90,999

Just do it, Honda!

that's a pretty sound idea, by increasing production it would reduce the cost of it remaining an aluminum body and suspension options larger in quantity, while allowing the wealthier honda patrons an opportunity of purchasing the rarer versions. This would also result in a much larger aftermarket following as well..

 

[WingZ]

I once again refer Honda to the Honcho/WingZ NSX recovery plan. I am amending the plan to include a ~ $60k FR GT cruiser based on the HSV with Honda's new V6 in development. Like AR said, aim for the GT-R/Z06/997 crowd. Porsche has made millions using 6 cylinder engines, Honda can too.

For the GT, I would use a 3.2 liter with i-VTEC on intake and exhaust, high-flow heads and a 9000rpm redline. Tune the exhaust to sound right and Honda will sell a ton of them.

Once the GT is successful, dust off the HSC and drop the 3.2 into it as the 3rd gen NSX at $59,999. Do a Type-S a year later with 3.5 liters at ~$75k and then a Type-R with a HSV-derived V8 at ~$90k. If Honda can keep the base model around $60k, it will sell lots of NSX's. Price creep killed that car in the 90's.

Base model: 3.2L 350 Crank HP 3100 lbs $59,999
Type-S: 3.5L 390 Crank HP 3000 lbs $74,999
Type-R: 3.6L 440 Crank HP (V8) 2900 lbs $90,999

Just do it, Honda!

Sad thing is powertrain isn't the problem anymore is chassis/platform. Honda currently builds everything off either the Civic or Accord platform. S2K was the last car I believe to have it's own platform.

The ASCC chassis could still be used w/o the V10. Honda might have been able to share that platform with the new RL ( which is there even going to be a new RL ) and use different powertrains.

Although no longer a Nissan fan ( bad customer service ) I do like how they made their FM platform so diversified. Of course reality is Ito believes that Honda can't afford to build a sportscar and the real sad thing is Japanese sportscars never get the price respect they deserve.

 

[swerve2007]

do not mistake chassis and 'platform'- platform just means that the cars share all the bs like wiring, switches, accessories etc.

 

[WingZ]

do not mistake chassis and 'platform'- platform just means that the cars share all the bs like wiring, switches, accessories etc.

Thanks! So when they say that the RL, ZDX , MDX , TL are all built off the Accord platform that doesn't mean that they're sharing the same chassis ( of course modified for the different lengths )

 

[jas303]

Thanks! So when they say that the RL, ZDX , MDX , TL are all built off the Accord platform that doesn't mean that they're sharing the same chassis ( of course modified for the different lengths )

That's correct. In my understanding, most, if not all of them have their own unique chassis. The TSX is the Accord Euro version, but the US Accord has it's own chassis build.

 

[Honcho]

Sad thing is powertrain isn't the problem anymore is chassis/platform. Honda currently builds everything off either the Civic or Accord platform. S2K was the last car I believe to have it's own platform.

The ASCC chassis could still be used w/o the V10. Honda might have been able to share that platform with the new RL ( which is there even going to be a new RL ) and use different powertrains.

Although no longer a Nissan fan ( bad customer service ) I do like how they made their FM platform so diversified. Of course reality is Ito believes that Honda can't afford to build a sportscar and the real sad thing is Japanese sportscars never get the price respect they deserve.

What I don't understand Perry is the cost argument here. Ito says the NSX was too expensive to make. Most of that car's cost was R&D, which was incurred in the 80's and has long since been paid off by Honda. I can't imagine that with a 20-year old established production line, that the expense of producing the MR platform suddenly become too expensive to bear- especially if you're only making 500 a year. The only thing I can imagine is that the costs of getting a 2006 NSX to meet the most recent crash safety requirements meant too much new R&D? Ugh, Honda is slowly turning into Toyota, and we have seen where that leads. :frown: Next thing you know, Ito will be up there committing seppuku because of some deadly defect on the millions of Accord/Civic/Odyssey shared platforms that Honda decided were less costly to produce...

 

[jas303]

Base model: 3.2L 350 Crank HP 3100 lbs $59,999
Type-S: 3.5L 390 Crank HP 3000 lbs $74,999
Type-R: 3.6L 440 Crank HP (V8) 2900 lbs $90,999

I did hear rumor about HSV targeting at around $60k, so you may be right on. I sure hope the HSV will have more stats than you listed, tho. The 370Z has 330+ HP, weights 3200 lbs, and priced at $36k+. A HSV with 350HP at $60k would be similar in performance with the 370Z, but almost twice as expensive. IMO, the performance and the price of it won't be able to attract the middle-income-Z-owners to spend the additional 25k, and yet can't convince the Porsche and M3 owners to jump ship. The Type-R version will also struggle with ZR1, GT3 and other 100k competitors. That's the main reason Honda scratched the project. NSX is an icon. An icon that they knew they would lose money over. If they really want to push out the HSV, I think they're either ready to lose some money for every HSV they build(which I don't think Ito is ready for), or they're going have to impress us with the price or the performance.

For me, a 350HP HSV isn't really much of an upgrade from the current NSX. I would probably get it anyway if it is still the MR design, but it's not.

 

[Honcho]

Interesting point. But, I think with the right design and engine, the HSV could lure 911 and M3 drivers. The HSV target market is a 30-50 year old male professional who can afford a second, "fun" car. These are the customers that buy base 911, M3's and C6 vettes. They will spend $60k, but they expect a few things for that price that the 370Z does not offer:

1. Luxury build quality and feel - I would brand the car "Acura SV" (for "Sports Velocity") and give it the same interior feel/quality as the TL/RL. Honda/Acura always has done a good job in this regard and I think they could succeed here. No rattles, squeaks or other issues. Nice leather and navi, etc. F1-style paddle shifter derived from the aborted ASCC V10 car.

2. Exotic-style engine - Take a 911 or C6 to redline and you are rewarded with an accoustic symphony of high performance. Through the engine note and suspension setup, the cars feel fast and exotic. Do the same thing with a 370Z, and it sounds like a glorified Maxima. I think a next-gen V6 with iVTEC and a 9000 rpm redline will give the HSV sufficient ambiance to convince the customer it is worth that extra $20k.

3. Unique styling - Here is where Honda could stumble. The HSV would have to look distinct. Sleek and luxurious, with a suggestion of race-inspired speed. For Pete's sake, DO NOT let the boneheads at Acura USA design this car! The last thing it needs is that big chrome schnozz on the front grill... Keep the design team in Japan, or outsource it to a European house. The car must look like it costs $60k.

If all of the above can be done, I think an "Acura SV" would be a successful flagship GT car for the brand.

As for my Type-S/Type-R list, that was for a 3rd Gen NSX based on the HSC chassis and using the HSV's powertrain. I think a V8 HSC at 2900 lbs would do just fine against a GT3 or ZR1.

I did hear rumor about HSV targeting at around $60k, so you may be right on. I sure hope the HSV will have more stats than you listed, tho. The 370Z has 330+ HP, weights 3200 lbs, and priced at $36k+. A HSV with 350HP at $60k would be similar in performance with the 370Z, but almost twice as expensive. IMO, the performance and the price of it won't be able to attract the middle-income-Z-owners to spend the additional 25k, and yet can't convince the Porsche and M3 owners to jump ship. The Type-R version will also struggle with ZR1, GT3 and other 100k competitors. That's the main reason Honda scratched the project. NSX is an icon. An icon that they knew they would lose money over. If they really want to push out the HSV, I think they're either ready to lose some money for every HSV they build(which I don't think Ito is ready for), or they're going have to impress us with the price or the performance.

For me, a 350HP HSV isn't really much of an upgrade from the current NSX. I would probably get it anyway if it is still the MR design, but it's not.

 

[jas303]

Honcho,

I hear ya, and I agree with you for the most part, especially the part about "2nd fun car". Porsche Cayman S has no more HP than the 370z, yet it's faster and rated much better than the Z. Because it was well-tuned, and Honda is amazing at finding that balance of well-tuning. However, it is still after all, a Honda, not a Porsche. This has been debated a million times: why can't Honda sell their sports cars like Porsche sells theirs? Well, because they are Porsches.... Just like LF-A can have all the latest and better-than-F-car technologies on board, but it is still a Toyota. Don't get me wrong. I love everything about the LF-A, but most people include myself would not blink a second to choose the 458 Italia over the LF-A. I have no doubt Honda will success at the car itself, but I do have doubts about how many and how good can they sell, if they can't stun people with something about this car.

Honda only need to do a good job at winning our hearts. As a Honda-die-hard-fan I know my bar is set pretty low for them. If they had the MR design going, my bar would be: "Guys, just build it, and I'll buy it." But to sell it to the general public, I am afraid it won't be that easy. The recent Japanese car recalls is also hurting their images. I think the new HSV will have to really kick some behinds in performance areas to make a splash. I just don't think 350HP is going to cut it. Will it be an amazing car at 350HP? Sure it will. Will the high-end-sports-car and low-end-exotic-car owners be amazed by it at 350HP? I am not so sure.

BTW, does NSX share the same airbag components with Accords? The Honda recall lists didn't include any NSXs.

 

[Silver F16]

I've spent limited time behind a Cayman and the driving experience is just not as engaging as the NSX is. I was looking at the Cayman as a serious consideration, but it just doesn't get my soul stirred, let alone the so-so styling of the Cayman compared to the exotic looks of the NSX.

I just want Honda to build any damn sport car. FR, mid-engine. Anything with an engine that has personality will do fine. After Honda killed the DN-X, HSC, and the FR V10 sports car ,I've lowered my expectations. I would love a mid-engine replacement, but at this point, just give us a proper sports car.

Any sports car, and if it comes in the form of a hybrid, make sure the powertrain still has soul.

 

[BluryNSX]

Honcho,
BTW, does NSX share the same airbag components with Accords? The Honda recall lists didn't include any NSXs.

no it doesn't, the only accords along with other models were 2000-2002.

 

[jas303]

no it doesn't, the only accords along with other models were 2000-2002.

Thanks for the confirmation!