Thank you Martin
Prayers
- Thread starter bill
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"true" - The hostility in your messages is completely inappropriate. I have deleted both of them. This is not the time or the place. If you want to start an idealogical discussion, do it in the Off Topic forum.
I've also moved all the other non-NSX threads to the Off Topic forum.
I've also moved all the other non-NSX threads to the Off Topic forum.
ok, I agree this is no place for that kind of talk. I apologize to anyone I offended...I was offended myself and I'll expect no apoligies from anyone. I wish you would not have deleted my posts and just moved them into off-topic. Please move this thread out of general. Thanks.
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jack of all trades, master of some.
[This message has been edited by true (edited 12 September 2001).]
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jack of all trades, master of some.
[This message has been edited by true (edited 12 September 2001).]
Still attempting to cope with the senselessness of it all. Several times a day a random thought regarding the tragedy appears in my head and moves me emotionally to the brink of tears. This morning it was seeing the American Flags that someone posted on every overpass on Highway 101 that moved me. I have never been to New York, and do not know anyone there, but their pain is my pain because I am proud to be an American and EVERYTHING that it stands for. Personally I hold every terrorist faction responsible for yesterday's activities. It does not matter if you crash planes, throw pipe bombs at school children, or blowup cars. All terrorists are cowards and there is no glory in what they do. The reason is that they cannot achieve in a global sense what they strive to accomplish. For a long time the US has maintained a turn the other cheek policy towards terrorists, and simply tried to keep them in check. Knowing full well that eventually a day like yesterday would come. I for one believe that US policy is about to change. Heck, even Afghanistan has publicly stated that they are on our side and feel our pain (if you believe that crap). Unfortunately for Afghanistan, they are very quickly running out of friends and have successfully pissed off Russia, the US, and all of their Arab neighbors (except Pakistan). I do not favor war or killing of any living thing, but sometimes you have to get rid of the bad apples before the rot the whole bushell.
Good luck my fellow Americans and know that you are not alone in your feelings of compassion.
bill
ps. Lud, Please move this post off topic when you see fit as it really has little to do with the NSX. Of course, the majority NSXs are enjoyed by Americans.
Good luck my fellow Americans and know that you are not alone in your feelings of compassion.
bill
ps. Lud, Please move this post off topic when you see fit as it really has little to do with the NSX. Of course, the majority NSXs are enjoyed by Americans.
- Joined
- 3 February 2000
- Messages
- 3,942
Let me guess.. via e-mail or usenet? These Nostradamus messages happen after every diaster. The quote is bogus.
Nostradomus died in the mid 1500's.
This particular quote was made up as an example by someone critical of how easily Nostradamus' vague prophecies were to bend to fit almost any situation in hindsight.
Nostradamus was French; he wrote exclusively in 16th century French.
It should be noted that Osama Bin Laden was funded by the USA, and according to reports, trained by the CIA.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm
Back a while when the US wanted someone to stop the russians in Afghanistan, they funded Osama Bin Laden and his "freedom fighters" to do their dirty work; whether someone is a "freedom fighter" or "terrorist" very much depends on who is writing the history.
I feel that the history of the main suspect appears to be being swept under the carpet as it's hugely embarassing, not least to George W, whose father's government actually funded Bin Laden.
I'm totally shocked and disgusted that anyone would plot to kill so many innocent people for any cause, though.
In the UK (and europe as a whole - the IRA (also US-funded, so I've read), Spain's ETA, etc) we'd sort of got used to terrorist attacks - bombs, bomb alerts, controlled explosions, "unattended bag" warnings everywhere and no litter bins in stations and airports (easy bomb hiding place, you see). The people of northern ireland have lived since the 70's with hugely armoured police stations, armoured patrol cars and patrols carrying semi-automatic weapons - and the ever-present fear of shootings and bombings.
The scale of this attack comes as a shock to europeans who are more aware of terrorism; the shock to the US people must be immense. The fact that there is likely to be no enemy to focus anger and revenge on even more frustrating. I sincerely hope that any response is considered and well thought through - a lot of people in the world are worried that indescriminate retailiatory attacks could start something much worse.
Hugo
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm
Back a while when the US wanted someone to stop the russians in Afghanistan, they funded Osama Bin Laden and his "freedom fighters" to do their dirty work; whether someone is a "freedom fighter" or "terrorist" very much depends on who is writing the history.
I feel that the history of the main suspect appears to be being swept under the carpet as it's hugely embarassing, not least to George W, whose father's government actually funded Bin Laden.
I'm totally shocked and disgusted that anyone would plot to kill so many innocent people for any cause, though.
In the UK (and europe as a whole - the IRA (also US-funded, so I've read), Spain's ETA, etc) we'd sort of got used to terrorist attacks - bombs, bomb alerts, controlled explosions, "unattended bag" warnings everywhere and no litter bins in stations and airports (easy bomb hiding place, you see). The people of northern ireland have lived since the 70's with hugely armoured police stations, armoured patrol cars and patrols carrying semi-automatic weapons - and the ever-present fear of shootings and bombings.
The scale of this attack comes as a shock to europeans who are more aware of terrorism; the shock to the US people must be immense. The fact that there is likely to be no enemy to focus anger and revenge on even more frustrating. I sincerely hope that any response is considered and well thought through - a lot of people in the world are worried that indescriminate retailiatory attacks could start something much worse.
Hugo
Hugo,
"It should be noted that Osama Bin Laden was funded by the USA, and according to reports, trained by the CIA."
Even if what you say is true, so what if OBL was funded by USA and trained by the CIA in his fight against Russia? Are you suggesting that the US and Russia should have entered WWIII over Russians invasion Afghanistan? Are you suggesting that the US should have fought the Afganis war for them and sacraficed American lives (just like we did for the UK in WWI and WWII) The US funded and saved the UK from Hitler in WWII. Would you like to talk about the UK's relationship with and how they treated the people of India, South America, the US (prior to 1776), etc.?
"Back a while when the US wanted someone to stop the russians in Afghanistan, they funded Osama Bin Laden and his "freedom fighters" to do their dirty work;"
The dirty work was Afghanistan's not the USAs.
whether someone is a "freedom fighter" or "terrorist" very much depends on who is writing the history.
So Germany worships Hitler? France worships Napoleon? Russia worships Stalin? Give me a break and quit living your life of hypocracy.
"I feel that the history of the main suspect appears to be being swept under the carpet as it's hugely embarassing, not least to George W, whose father's
government actually funded Bin Laden."
Your opinion, and you are entitled to that.
"I'm totally shocked and disgusted that anyone would plot to kill so many innocent people for any cause, though."
I agree. By the way, how many mistresses were beheaded by your kings? How many Irish and Scottish were raped and pillaged by your kings armies? Of course these were not innocent people, their crime was not to live in english enforced enslavement. Really, I'm curious because I've only seen movies about it and would like to hear the facts from an englishman.
"In the UK (and europe as a whole - the IRA (also US-funded, so I've read),"
Or so you've read. Give me a break! Tell me one good reason why the US government would fund the IRA? I have heard the rumor, but have no proof, that some IRA funding may come from the Irish in the US, but the US government certainly does not support the IRA. The english made their own bed with the Irish and now you cry to the US because you can't make it? Fix your own problems or should we start WWIII over your pettiness?
"Spain's ETA, etc) we'd sort of got used to terrorist attacks - bombs, bomb alerts,
controlled explosions, "unattended bag" warnings everywhere and no litter bins in stations and airports (easy bomb hiding place, you see). The people of northern
ireland have lived since the 70's with hugely armoured police stations, armoured patrol cars and patrols carrying semi-automatic weapons - and the ever-present
fear of shootings and bombings."
Again, it's your problem so deal with it. Or are you blaming the US here and begging for help?
"The scale of this attack comes as a shock to europeans who are more aware of terrorism; the shock to the US people must be immense. The fact that there is
likely to be no enemy to focus anger and revenge on even more frustrating. I sincerely hope that any response is considered and well thought through - a lot of
people in the world are worried that indescriminate retailiatory attacks could start something much worse."
Oooh, let me interpret..the big bad bully USA might be upset this time and come out swinging. Here my friend you are correct. My opinion is it is time for the USA to relieve the world of the terrorists that all other nations have chosen to live with and accept as a way of life. Your way of life is not acceptable to Americans and we do not, and will not live in fear. It's freedom that we require. The response will of course not be indescriminate. I am sure that we know who the terrorists of the world are and could
have them at any given time if we were not worried about how the rest of the world would perceive our actions. If I were OBL I would be very, very, scared. He obviously is as his latest quote is that the terrorist act was that of an American terrorist group. Not sure what all these terrorists are asking for, and I am sure that some live only to fight and make a good living doing it. Hey it beats making textiles for the king of england for pennies a day. There is a saying 'be careful what you ask for, you just might get it'. The terrorists in the world are about to get theirs. Of course, this is just my opinion.
Having typed this, I regret that I spent so much time and effort on you.
bill
"It should be noted that Osama Bin Laden was funded by the USA, and according to reports, trained by the CIA."
Even if what you say is true, so what if OBL was funded by USA and trained by the CIA in his fight against Russia? Are you suggesting that the US and Russia should have entered WWIII over Russians invasion Afghanistan? Are you suggesting that the US should have fought the Afganis war for them and sacraficed American lives (just like we did for the UK in WWI and WWII) The US funded and saved the UK from Hitler in WWII. Would you like to talk about the UK's relationship with and how they treated the people of India, South America, the US (prior to 1776), etc.?
"Back a while when the US wanted someone to stop the russians in Afghanistan, they funded Osama Bin Laden and his "freedom fighters" to do their dirty work;"
The dirty work was Afghanistan's not the USAs.
whether someone is a "freedom fighter" or "terrorist" very much depends on who is writing the history.
So Germany worships Hitler? France worships Napoleon? Russia worships Stalin? Give me a break and quit living your life of hypocracy.
"I feel that the history of the main suspect appears to be being swept under the carpet as it's hugely embarassing, not least to George W, whose father's
government actually funded Bin Laden."
Your opinion, and you are entitled to that.
"I'm totally shocked and disgusted that anyone would plot to kill so many innocent people for any cause, though."
I agree. By the way, how many mistresses were beheaded by your kings? How many Irish and Scottish were raped and pillaged by your kings armies? Of course these were not innocent people, their crime was not to live in english enforced enslavement. Really, I'm curious because I've only seen movies about it and would like to hear the facts from an englishman.
"In the UK (and europe as a whole - the IRA (also US-funded, so I've read),"
Or so you've read. Give me a break! Tell me one good reason why the US government would fund the IRA? I have heard the rumor, but have no proof, that some IRA funding may come from the Irish in the US, but the US government certainly does not support the IRA. The english made their own bed with the Irish and now you cry to the US because you can't make it? Fix your own problems or should we start WWIII over your pettiness?
"Spain's ETA, etc) we'd sort of got used to terrorist attacks - bombs, bomb alerts,
controlled explosions, "unattended bag" warnings everywhere and no litter bins in stations and airports (easy bomb hiding place, you see). The people of northern
ireland have lived since the 70's with hugely armoured police stations, armoured patrol cars and patrols carrying semi-automatic weapons - and the ever-present
fear of shootings and bombings."
Again, it's your problem so deal with it. Or are you blaming the US here and begging for help?
"The scale of this attack comes as a shock to europeans who are more aware of terrorism; the shock to the US people must be immense. The fact that there is
likely to be no enemy to focus anger and revenge on even more frustrating. I sincerely hope that any response is considered and well thought through - a lot of
people in the world are worried that indescriminate retailiatory attacks could start something much worse."
Oooh, let me interpret..the big bad bully USA might be upset this time and come out swinging. Here my friend you are correct. My opinion is it is time for the USA to relieve the world of the terrorists that all other nations have chosen to live with and accept as a way of life. Your way of life is not acceptable to Americans and we do not, and will not live in fear. It's freedom that we require. The response will of course not be indescriminate. I am sure that we know who the terrorists of the world are and could
have them at any given time if we were not worried about how the rest of the world would perceive our actions. If I were OBL I would be very, very, scared. He obviously is as his latest quote is that the terrorist act was that of an American terrorist group. Not sure what all these terrorists are asking for, and I am sure that some live only to fight and make a good living doing it. Hey it beats making textiles for the king of england for pennies a day. There is a saying 'be careful what you ask for, you just might get it'. The terrorists in the world are about to get theirs. Of course, this is just my opinion.
Having typed this, I regret that I spent so much time and effort on you.
bill
bill: I'm not painting the UK as some unblemished power; a lot of what happened in the past (colonialism) wasn't exactly justifiable - even if the rest of europe was at it too, to some degree.
Kings & Mistresses are completely irrelevant. Yes, Kings, as people in power, did dodgy things - as they do now. The aztecs had human sacrifice, for example. I scarely think that King Henry's taste for new wives compares with Pol Pot on a global scale.
As for armies raping & pillaging - tends to come with the territory, especially in earlier times - almost anything up to the industrial revolution, where improved communication tended to pull society together a bit. The US also has dodgy history in this area too, despite being a very young country; all any country can hope to do is to not repeat the past - not spend the future apologising for it.
When I mentioned european terrorism I wasn't blaming the US or begging for help; in general, progress is being made through negotiation.
The problem with terrorism is that when you think you have it stamped out, it jumps back as big as ever - no matter how many people are wiped out. It only takes a handful of people to use a plane as a suicide bomb - the fact that they themselves die in the gruesome act means they're hardly bothered about personal reprocussions. If, however, you manage to improve foreign relations so that you aren't a target of hate, you're much safer. This may not be possible, but it's worth a try.
All in my opinion, obviously.
Hugo
Kings & Mistresses are completely irrelevant. Yes, Kings, as people in power, did dodgy things - as they do now. The aztecs had human sacrifice, for example. I scarely think that King Henry's taste for new wives compares with Pol Pot on a global scale.
As for armies raping & pillaging - tends to come with the territory, especially in earlier times - almost anything up to the industrial revolution, where improved communication tended to pull society together a bit. The US also has dodgy history in this area too, despite being a very young country; all any country can hope to do is to not repeat the past - not spend the future apologising for it.
When I mentioned european terrorism I wasn't blaming the US or begging for help; in general, progress is being made through negotiation.
The problem with terrorism is that when you think you have it stamped out, it jumps back as big as ever - no matter how many people are wiped out. It only takes a handful of people to use a plane as a suicide bomb - the fact that they themselves die in the gruesome act means they're hardly bothered about personal reprocussions. If, however, you manage to improve foreign relations so that you aren't a target of hate, you're much safer. This may not be possible, but it's worth a try.
All in my opinion, obviously.
Hugo
I have to agree with Hugo. I didn't feel he was dissing the US, or comparing UK as better
than US when I read his post. He was just stating some facts of life. Hey, we're all a lot edgy right now and patriotism is going to be running rampant. We need to control it
and use it as something to be proud of, but not at the expense of others. Witness what's starting to happen already, as people of middle eastern descent here are being harrassed, boycotted, etc. A bushel of bad apples doesn't spoil the whole truckload. We need to use restraint UNTIL we can positively
identify those responsible, and then deal accordingly. We certainly must not turn into lynch mobs.
Also, keep in mind the US is not actually guiltless when it comes to atrocities. Witness what was done to Native Americans and the people of the Hawaian Islands.We have to learn from our mistakes, not forget about them.....
than US when I read his post. He was just stating some facts of life. Hey, we're all a lot edgy right now and patriotism is going to be running rampant. We need to control it
and use it as something to be proud of, but not at the expense of others. Witness what's starting to happen already, as people of middle eastern descent here are being harrassed, boycotted, etc. A bushel of bad apples doesn't spoil the whole truckload. We need to use restraint UNTIL we can positively
identify those responsible, and then deal accordingly. We certainly must not turn into lynch mobs.
Also, keep in mind the US is not actually guiltless when it comes to atrocities. Witness what was done to Native Americans and the people of the Hawaian Islands.We have to learn from our mistakes, not forget about them.....
nsxlnt,
I disagree with the your interpretation of Hugo's post. His common thread is that the USA funds terrorism, including bin laden, and this time it backfired. I fully agree with your other comments. Hugo's post makes it feel as if the USA is somehow to blame for what happened. The problem that I have with this is that it's like getting sucker punched by the school bully and then having to look inside and ask yourself what you did to deserve it. That thinking is wrong when dealing with terrorists and bullies (both of which are cowards), in my opinion. Dying for a cause, in and of itself, is not a demonstration of courage. It merely indicates that one feels that ones life is not worth living anymore. I also am aware that the USA has it's faults and has commited crimes in the past. However, in the USA you are free to question the government. I personally feel that the USA does more good than bad. Something that other countries do not permit. This is my last post to this thread (I hope!) since it's intent was to express compassion for all the victims of the senseless attack and it has evolved into everyone attempting to point fingers and defend their country. Hard to imagine peace on earth when there are always people trying to justify crimes by assessing hidden blame.
I disagree with the your interpretation of Hugo's post. His common thread is that the USA funds terrorism, including bin laden, and this time it backfired. I fully agree with your other comments. Hugo's post makes it feel as if the USA is somehow to blame for what happened. The problem that I have with this is that it's like getting sucker punched by the school bully and then having to look inside and ask yourself what you did to deserve it. That thinking is wrong when dealing with terrorists and bullies (both of which are cowards), in my opinion. Dying for a cause, in and of itself, is not a demonstration of courage. It merely indicates that one feels that ones life is not worth living anymore. I also am aware that the USA has it's faults and has commited crimes in the past. However, in the USA you are free to question the government. I personally feel that the USA does more good than bad. Something that other countries do not permit. This is my last post to this thread (I hope!) since it's intent was to express compassion for all the victims of the senseless attack and it has evolved into everyone attempting to point fingers and defend their country. Hard to imagine peace on earth when there are always people trying to justify crimes by assessing hidden blame.
"CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating Palistinians to manipulate you..."
http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946
Just thought I'd share this... Check it out!
-E
http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=6946
Just thought I'd share this... Check it out!
-E
bill: My point was not that the USA funds terrorism - just that the people it supported at one time have since turned and dangerous people can bite. The UK is guilty of this too - our arms companies have supplied many dictatorships which have since fallen out of favour (iraq, for example).
The politics of the world arena are complex and intertwined - allegiances change, and things that were once seen as positive can quickly swing the other way. The question is always if we should get involved, or let the countries involved sort it out amongst themselves; no answer is correct - damned if you do, damned if you don't. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In the UK too, you are free to question the government - as with the rest of europe. We may not have a constitution, but there is still a strong thread of freedom of speech. My personal opinion is that the media are possibly too powerful a force in the US; public opinion is moulded by the media - and politicians tend to follow public opinion.
It does worry me that before coming to office, the nearest the US president had come to seeing the world was visiting Mexico - one would hope that the president of the most powerful country in the world was slightly more versed with the rest of it. I'm going even further off-topic though now - as I said before, my thoughts are with those who lost loved ones, and let's hope that the rescue teams keep finding people still alive in the rubble.
Hugo
The politics of the world arena are complex and intertwined - allegiances change, and things that were once seen as positive can quickly swing the other way. The question is always if we should get involved, or let the countries involved sort it out amongst themselves; no answer is correct - damned if you do, damned if you don't. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In the UK too, you are free to question the government - as with the rest of europe. We may not have a constitution, but there is still a strong thread of freedom of speech. My personal opinion is that the media are possibly too powerful a force in the US; public opinion is moulded by the media - and politicians tend to follow public opinion.
It does worry me that before coming to office, the nearest the US president had come to seeing the world was visiting Mexico - one would hope that the president of the most powerful country in the world was slightly more versed with the rest of it. I'm going even further off-topic though now - as I said before, my thoughts are with those who lost loved ones, and let's hope that the rescue teams keep finding people still alive in the rubble.
Hugo
