Power steering

Joined
20 September 2005
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Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Hi guys,

a friend of mine have a 91 NSX spiced up for trackdays... he wants to know if it is possible to install powersteering.

if it is possible, which parts would be needed ???

thanks,
Nuno
 
first i would suggest driving one with power steering.... just to see how it feels. a lot of people prefer the feel of the non-power steering (at least that's the impression i get from this site).... i hear it feels more precise

i don't know all that much about the steering system, but i would assume pretty much every part of the system would have to be replaced. the rack/pinion drive is probably geared differently.... since it's electronic assist, you wouldn't have the pump and stuff.... so it might not be THAT big of a deal if that's what he really wants to do.

again, tell him to try it out first, and it might not even be something he needs to decide on.

can anybody here that has experience with both systems give some insight as to the differences in how they feel?
 
haha, actually.... i just saw that you had a 97. so he's probably already felt the differences between power and non-power.....

nevermind :redface:
 
Hi guys,

a friend of mine have a 91 NSX spiced up for trackdays... he wants to know if it is possible to install powersteering.

if it is possible, which parts would be needed ???

thanks,
Nuno

I'm wondering if its "spiced up for trackdays" why would he want to add P/S? I thought on the NSX electric power steering is only there to assist the driver at slower speeds and then deactivates afterwards. So for track situtation, I don't see any need for the EPS unless he's doing parellel parking or something? :rolleyes:
 
nevermind :redface:
ehhehehe

all input is welcome....all...thanks...



excellon:

well... "spiced up" = Project MU BBK, NSX-R coils, NSX-R Bars, Volk CE28N Rims with A048s, Portuguese Carbon/kevlar replica of Recaro with only 4.6kg, NSX-R wing....etc...etc...

his problem is that after the first 30m session, he is all worn out...he thinks that with power steering, it will be a little easier... we drive eachother cars and can't find differences in feeling...only in strengh...

i was unaware of that "off" condition on a certain speed...

any more thoughts?
 
...his problem is that after the first 30m session, he is all worn out...he thinks that with power steering, it will be a little easier... we drive eachother cars and can't find differences in feeling...only in strengh...


any more thoughts?

He may be using the wrong tiresor if that's not the problem, then maybe he needs to go to the gym and workout a little.
 
Power steering will not help, it is off above 35 MPH. Turn in will be slightly slower since the PS rack has a variable ratio that is higher from center, and gets lower as you turn the wheel from center about 15 degrees IIRC.

DocL has the answer, hit the gym:). Also there are many things like the fluids you drink that are important to keep your stamina for 4 or so sessions a day.

HTH,
LarryB
 
ahahehahahhea....

i'll tell him not to be such a lazzy bitch and go work out....

aehaehhea

DocL:

He may be using the wrong tiresor

what's this??? :confused: :confused: (sorry, but don't know that word)
 
Hahaha...when van Overbeek drove my car, he complained about the power steering:

JVO: What's wrong with the power steering?
Me: ...uh, it doesn't have any...
JVO: ......................<silence>............oh.

ICBW, but I think switching to power steering (don't the automatics have it too?) is a popular mod in Japan.

One thing is for sure, tracking an NSX will definitely give your forearms a workout.
 
With appropriate apologies to LarryB, for whom I have utmost respect, power steering will help. The only guys who claim to "prefer" manual steering over power steering are the guys whose car doesn't have power steering. If all cars were equipped with power steering the subject wouldn't even come up. No one would even think about it. Everyone would celebrate what an engineering marvel NSX power steering is. It provides assist when you want it and "feel" when you want it. But because most of the early cars don't have it, they tell themselves that the manual steering is "better". Then a few guys read that and think "I will remove my power steering and the car will be better!"

Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that having the power steering is just a lot nicer, even under normal circumstances. I don't track my car, but a day at the track fighting the steering wheel must be much worse, much more exhausting with the manual steering plus all that shifting. The power steering is variable assist, providing maximum assist at low speeds, as when in turns and shifting, right when you want maximum control without struggling with the steering wheel while shifting. At speeds of approximately 90 mph (quoting from the book "Acura NSX- Honda's Supercar" by Brian Long) the power assist is virtually nil, so you have that "feel" that people speak of. Power-steering on the NSX is electronic, so you don't lose any horsepower to a power-steering pump. The added weight is negligible. In summation, power steering on an NSX is well-engineered, unique, and ideal for the track.

The fact that you find no difference in your car's "feel", only in the "strength", is sufficient evidence in favor of the power steering. You are comparing two cars which are essentially identical, save for lack of power-steering on one, which clearly requires more exertion on the part of the driver.

Maybe your friend could find someone who has bought into the "manual steering is better" myth, then when they remove theirs to make their car "better", he could get the take-off parts?
 
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I really actually prefer not to have power steering in the NSX. To me, it just feels like I have more control over the car. That's why I prefer to have a traditional manual transmission as well. Even though many modern sports cars are now using paddle shifters (sequential manual transmissions, without a clutch pedal), I still prefer to have the traditional trasmission where I disengage and engage the clutch with my left foot.
 
PS rules.

i would give a pretty penny for PS in my nsx. :biggrin: hate making those tight U turns or silly parking end to end rotations, maybe i have girly man arms. :tongue:
 
Sorry for the typo. "Tiresor" was a mispelling of "tires or". Meaning, maybe the tires he is using are the wrong compound. I just replaced the Kumho 712tires I had on my car with Goodyear FI's, and the steering effort became much easier. My non power assisted steering NSX actually feels like it has power assisted steering compared to before. :smile:
 
Sorry for the typo. "Tiresor" was a mispelling of "tires or". Meaning, maybe the tires he is using are the wrong compound. I just replaced the Kumho 712tires I had on my car with Goodyear FI's, and the steering effort became much easier. My non power assisted steering NSX actually feels like it has power assisted steering compared to before. :smile:

:smile: :smile:

He used Yokohama A048 so far, and will change to Bridgestone Potenza RE55S
a hell of grippy tires..

we will drive eachother's cars on track to see the difference...try to do the same corners at the same speed to see some differences...even change wheels also to eliminate them as a variable.... we'll see... :P

i know i have PS and WILL NOT REMOVE IT !!!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: (call me lazy)
 
I'd have to agree with Jett on this point. I'm also confused as to where that perspective came from. I would think it is due to the fact that they had deleted the rack on the Zanardi and R for further weight savings, and so some took to the purist view and assumed that EPS systems were a performance detriment to our platform as a whole.

If our system was hydraulic like on a FE civic or even cost us anything past added the minor weight penalty, sure pull it.. but the NSX EPS system being an electrical assist computer controlled design is a highly advanced rather pricey implementation anyone can take pride in, in fact being a some-what revolutionary and a notable technological point when it first debuted in 1993. The fact is the service manual states that the PS rack was designed to actually be identical in feel to a manual rack (17-39), with the core differences being the benefit of power assist via the ball screw to reduce the input force required to turn the wheel, a more linear steering feel, and the usual benefits of less kick-back and HP/fuel economy losses.

I've become rather partial to is design, and I definitely wouldn't characterize our EPS system as simply being ineffective at speed or for 'parking-only'.

After picking over all the details in the service manual, as well as the official press release on the topic specific to the NSX, I've never read anything that says that the force map has all power assist disengage entirely after 35mph. The service manual lists the modes and over-load conditions, but does not show the map. All told, that often used data point frankly just doesn't make any sense to me.

Has anyone simply disconnected their PCU? Run a 20 minute session at the track with it, and the next session without it- and I will say that you'll most definitely notice the PS difference on the race track. The difference in feel of losing all power assist is very apparent to me, particularly throttling out of a chicane as the rack unwinds and the system would normally flip into return mode. It is absolutely un-mistakable how much smoother the steering feels with or without assist on a A-B comparison at any speed. It lightens things up across the board making steering input easier and more predictable so you spend less time fighting the wheel.

Long ago, I took the time long ago to search around with other racers, and at the pro levels even Daytona GT3 cup cars and Super GT 350Z's sport power steering systems, and almost all tech rules allow for the system to be retained without penalty at the club level.

In fact so far as I can tell- many SCCA race car drivers, especially in touring classes, go to great expense to transplant OE or aftermarket systems or improvise methods for the driver to fine tune the degree of steering assist. Honda is even incorporating them into their ATV's since 2006, perhaps taking lead from companies like Howe performance.

I think this is a point whereas it is very easy to confuse or mis-diagnose drive-ability issues. I've driven my share of 91's, my late model, and at one point Jack's Zanardi. Almost immediately I had also come to dislike the "touring" feel I felt the later model EPS conveys bone stock versus the Zanardi. In fact, early on it was my biggest complaint about my targa.

Inevitably thou, I realized that the difference is not the minor difference in steering ratios or added assist by the power steering system... but rather always other car setup issues in general-namely tires and suspension. Now with all those worked out, for me the PS feature stays and most know I have little qualms about removing things. IMHO NSX design- from clutch to throttle to shifter to steering... is all about being input smooth and near effortless putting driver first- not a heavy brute. The power steering system extends on that effect... and to me with the assist it feels smoother on a session, likely over many hours allowing a driver to be more consistent in an endurance scenario and hence faster. Thus, the 'more is less' sell from Honda.

In closing, one can always defer to a matter of personal preference on this feature.

I also went back and forth for some time.. as overall it is about 30lbs or so between racks and the two boxes which is notable being in the range of 1% platform weight. All in all, I've come to prefer our EPS system, and I wouldn't down play the importance of its influence on general drive-ability... if it feels good parking on 215 street tires just wait until you are turning more aggressive wheels/tires on the track and you can really begin to appreciate this feature all around. I've also learned to fine tune it using the rack guide screw which helps to an extent.
 
If our system was hydraulic like on a FE civic or even cost us anything past added the minor weight penalty, sure pull it.. but the NSX EPS system being an electrical assist computer controlled design is a highly advanced rather pricey implementation anyone can take pride in, in fact being a some-what revolutionary and a notable technological point when it first debuted in 1993.

Are you sure about 1993?

Nothing changed in 93 according to anything I have ever seen... the automatics still had the same system (until 94) and the ones with manual transmissions had no power steering until 95... 91-93 with manual transmissions were without... I know my 93 has no power steering and I love it :biggrin:

NSXPrime FAQ said:
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Are there other differences between EPS and non-EPS NSXs?<!--mstheme-->

The main reason the EPS-equipped cars feel different is that they simply use different steering racks with different ratios.
<!--mstheme-->[/FONT]<!--msthemelist--><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <!--msthemelist--><tbody><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">
indbul1d.gif
</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->'91-'94 5-speed cars have an 18.6:1 ratio<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">
indbul1d.gif
</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->'95+ manual cars have a variable ratio of 18.2:1 to 20.8:1. All but the Zanardi have EPS.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">
indbul1d.gif
</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->All automatics to date have EPS with an 18.6:1 ratio regardless of year.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">
indbul1d.gif
</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->The Zanardi has the same variable rack as the '95+ EPS cars and they simply deleted the power assist.</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
A little off topic, and hopefully not a dumb question:

Is there a way to decrease the turn radius on the steering wheel? In other words, instead of having to turn 180 degrees, I would only have to turn the wheel 100 degrees or something to have the same effect?
 
Are you sure about 1993?

Nothing changed in 93 according to anything I have ever seen... the automatics still had the same system (until 94) and the ones with manual transmissions had no power steering until 95... 91-93 with manual transmissions were without... I know my 93 has no power steering and I love it :biggrin:

I was simply quoting the official press release from Honda on power steering which listed a formal release debut date of 1993 for the technology for manual.

As the system was already technically detailed in the 91' service manual with automatics in mind I would have to assume the technology was engineered well prior in the late 80's along with the rest of the platform. I can only speculate that they really meant 1991MY referring to early automatics; more likely, perhaps the release is accurate in international scope. Perhaps it was first afforded as an option on the 1993 year for manuals in Japan... or perhaps it was a split year issue spanning vins first appearing for order in early 93', but unavailable for delivery until late 93' on manual equipped units in Japan, perhaps late coming due to tooling or demand. I'm not entirely certain on that one specific point myself. I'll ask a friend in Japan to clarify as I believe customers had more pull when ordering new vehicles there on factory options and the changes by year vary internationally... but the NSX-R site's timeline would support my general theory that the technology officially debuted in 1993 for manual.

According to the prime FAQ EPS became standard as an option for manuals on all 1995+ targas, but that is once again simply a US domestic perspective on the NSX as from 93-95 the early Type R was available in Japan without EPS - and even later the Type S and S Zero omitted it- obviously yet another conflicting semantic. Personally I suspect cost had a role there as well in that decision given other added pricey features on those specialty trims like carbon backed Recaro seats and momo steering wheels. Look-up part numbers, the EPS system is certainly not cheap.

Perhaps a better question is what EPS tweaks were made over all those years of production. Some minor changes don't always show in press releases, and it wouldn't be unreasonable at the bare minimum to assume some firmware differences over a decade and a half of production inside the EPS controller.

As to if PS will make it or not into anyone's race/project car- as most of the early model's didn't sport the feature, most would likely not go to the trouble to add it given the complexity and expense. Others still are purists and will argue it feels better endlessly. Such debate is right up there with the 5 vs 6 speed decision whereas one could argue the 5 has the more robust shaft splines. It obviously is an option. To each's own.

In my instance the decision was simply if it should be omitted or retained, and I've had plenty of opportunity to A/B the assist feature on track this year as I had issues with a code for awhile due to my final drive pick-up. Ultimately it all rides on to how you define steering feel or to what degree you find value in having effortless steering.
 
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