Porsche Cayman GT4 vs. Modified NSX
- Thread starter RYU
- Start date
You guys are all so sensible. I should post this in the GT4 forum 
It sounds like you've put a fair amount of time & money into your car. That being said, I'd sell my NSX in a heartbeat to fund the purchase of a GT4 at MSRP. Like the NSX, the Cayman & 911 possess an intangible "something" that makes them a joy to drive; the GT cars even more so.
It depends on where you're at in life and what you're looking for, but I don't think the GT4 is as special as the NSX.
I feel like you RYU...
The GT4 is a fantastic car that is 100% road legal and probably faster on track than my LoveFab NSX at 7.5 PSI.
Furthermore every two years I struggle to get the car through the emissions test...
Now, I've never driven a GT4 to be fair.
Let's face it if Honda had evolved the NSX over the years we would most probably have the equivalent of the GT4.
On top of that it's a garanteed collector as the NA flat six will not pass the future emission tests.
To me the GT4 is probably what the new NSX should have been like.
We won't get these kind of cars anymore I'm sure...
The GT4 is a fantastic car that is 100% road legal and probably faster on track than my LoveFab NSX at 7.5 PSI.
Furthermore every two years I struggle to get the car through the emissions test...
Now, I've never driven a GT4 to be fair.
Let's face it if Honda had evolved the NSX over the years we would most probably have the equivalent of the GT4.
On top of that it's a garanteed collector as the NA flat six will not pass the future emission tests.
To me the GT4 is probably what the new NSX should have been like.
We won't get these kind of cars anymore I'm sure...
The NSX is truly a special car. I'll be happy to keep it forever. However, the reality is I need a car I can drive hard. My NSX is 100% working great at the moment but the chances are if something breaks again i'll struggle fixing it (lack of mechanics, discontinued parts, etc). My stop gap solution was to buy an S2000. Such a fun car but it's not the same. The GT4 fills that NSX void the best IMO. It feels like a newer NSX in every way. It even feels slower than mine but it's a pleasant, luxurious, yet invigorating enough experience week in, week out. That's what my NSX is to me. I'm considering keeping the NSX but it's becoming more rare.
Maybe one day [MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] can help me tune the car to squeeze out that extra 25% I know is there.
Maybe one day [MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] can help me tune the car to squeeze out that extra 25% I know is there.
[MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION], have you considered test driving a Lotus Evora 400?
I have not but the youtubers really like them.
As someone already mentioned, those GT4's are weighing in on the rennlist forums closer to 3200lbs
I've noticed more and more manufactures advertising "dry weight" especially on special track oriented editions to make them appear a lot lighter than their street counterparts... therefore the caymens WHP to weight is actually 9.3 to your 7.7 you have a 17% advantage, plus you have a 15% weight advantage, which can quickly equal the playingfield of the gt4's more refined suspension.
In the end its all physics, and the NSX chassis is still a stiff contender.
Porsche has not invented some magic bullet in the GT4 that will outpace an NSX when modified with comparable tire sizes & compounds, comparable power to weight, brakes and suspension, and proper aero.
The caymen GT4 ran 1:37.43 at Laguna with legendary Randy Posbt behind the wheel
A virtually stock NSX with H/I/E ran 1:39 at Laguna with Ryan Rush https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4rFhDQwuP3wJP77my-_eXw
Ryan's NSX has 11PW, OEM areo & OEM brakes
RYU NSX should be a good bit faster
Then more importantly, need to consider all the other ownership elements; the conversation piece, the rarity and future value, the personal involvement, pride and effort to build an older rare car to keep up or slay new cars.... keep in mind in a few years that caymen with a body kit wont be rare, the conversation will lack excitement, the performance numbers will likely be as forgotten as a C5 Z06, and then the joy of those first few years post-warranty insanely high maintenance costs kick in.... By then your nsx will be worth more, even more rare and even more to talk about and appreciate.
I've noticed more and more manufactures advertising "dry weight" especially on special track oriented editions to make them appear a lot lighter than their street counterparts... therefore the caymens WHP to weight is actually 9.3 to your 7.7 you have a 17% advantage, plus you have a 15% weight advantage, which can quickly equal the playingfield of the gt4's more refined suspension.
In the end its all physics, and the NSX chassis is still a stiff contender.
Porsche has not invented some magic bullet in the GT4 that will outpace an NSX when modified with comparable tire sizes & compounds, comparable power to weight, brakes and suspension, and proper aero.
The caymen GT4 ran 1:37.43 at Laguna with legendary Randy Posbt behind the wheel
A virtually stock NSX with H/I/E ran 1:39 at Laguna with Ryan Rush https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4rFhDQwuP3wJP77my-_eXw
Ryan's NSX has 11PW, OEM areo & OEM brakes
RYU NSX should be a good bit faster
Then more importantly, need to consider all the other ownership elements; the conversation piece, the rarity and future value, the personal involvement, pride and effort to build an older rare car to keep up or slay new cars.... keep in mind in a few years that caymen with a body kit wont be rare, the conversation will lack excitement, the performance numbers will likely be as forgotten as a C5 Z06, and then the joy of those first few years post-warranty insanely high maintenance costs kick in.... By then your nsx will be worth more, even more rare and even more to talk about and appreciate.
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Even a 8yo Cayman S will walk all over a stockish NSX on the track, so don't make this about the numbers. A GT4 will be lapping a stock NSX, and any other great car from 3 decades ago, in short order.
But the numbers don't matter and if they do to you, your NSX is doomed, it's time to sell. The NSX was years ahead of the competition but that was THIRTY YEARS AGO.
Doesn't mean it's not a great car that can't be replaced once someone sells it.
But the numbers don't matter and if they do to you, your NSX is doomed, it's time to sell. The NSX was years ahead of the competition but that was THIRTY YEARS AGO.
Doesn't mean it's not a great car that can't be replaced once someone sells it.
Link?
A non-pro driver has lapped Laguna Seca in 1:39 in an early coupe with only NT01s + intake/headers/exhaust.
A non-pro driver has lapped Laguna Seca in 1:39 in an early coupe with only NT01s + intake/headers/exhaust.
At least with the nsx you don't have to worry about mods voiding a warranty. :smile:
You're asking for track times of a 30year old car competing against modern cars?
Fine - here is all you need. Fastest Nurburgring times should give you the information that you're after. But if you put value on how the track times of what was an incredible machine a few decades ago compare to modern cars you're in the wrong car.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife
NSXs are awesome in every way that matters.
FWIW, given that I know Ryan and have ridden on his NSX at Laguna I can say that his car's engine is stock, but the suspension setup on his car is several degrees away from been stock. His car has a vented hood, as well as Billy Johnson special rear spoiler as well as running shaved NT01's and running harnesses. He is also one hell of a driver based on his many years of karting.
Randy's laptime at LS was posted on a GT-4 with stock alignment and suspension ride height, take that same car and lower it and add more negative camber front and rear add a proper harness setup and the lap times would drop by 2-3 seconds easily. The clubsport version of the GT-4 can lap laguna around in the high 1:20's low 1:30's so that should give you some perspective.
I would not be surprised if Ryan were to drive a properly track prepped GT4 that he would get into the 1:34-1:35 range at LS without breaking a sweat.
The GT4 will retain it's value given that the 981 version of the GT4 was a limited production car, and it is not as you say a Cayman with a bodykit given that the car came out of the Porsche Motorsports division within PAG.
Please do some research before posting inaccurate information.
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I made 2 comparisons, the majority of my comments had to do with heavily modified NSX like RYU's
1: "Porsche has not invented some magic bullet in the GT4 that will outpace an NSX when modified with "COMPARABLE" tire sizes & compounds, COMPARABLE power to weight, brakes and suspension, and proper aero."
2: that Ryans N/A stock weight and power NSX was only 2 seconds slower than randy Pobst
consider, the GT4 has superior factory tested aero, larger diameter & wider tires (increased foot print)
Pobst would be a few seconds faster in any car than Ryan regardless how good an experienced/amateur driver Ryan is
adding a harness, and camber does not equal 2-3 seconds, (unless were also adding real race slicks)
I was running quicker track times than comparable driver/tires modified Caymen S in my previously stock-ish NSX for many years. (before turbo)
As far as future value comparing "limited production" of a chassis there are millions of, to an NSX there are 8800 of which is as rare as the Ferraris Tesarossa's 7500 production.
History already proved none of the caymen/boxter special editions have held value. Frankly no Porsches in general have proven to hold value, except the iconic 911... thus there is no precedent to predict any caymen version will hold value relative to the 911 mindset just because its Porsche, especially anywhere relative to the already collectible and extremely rare, appreciating NSX.
back to main subject , if RYUS NSX was to be properly track setup, with SAME tires and COMPARABLE aero, and SAME driver considering Ryu's 15% stronger PW and 17% lower weight, it should beat the caymen GT4 or any other car given the PW & weight advantages of that scenario.
the NSX has surprisingly similar wheel base as the GT4. the NSX wheelbase is actually 56mm longer and 9mm wider stock (with most aftermarket offsets increasing it to 60mm wider) .. the NSX with a virtually identical engine placement. both cars with equal aero, PW and tires and suspension will have very similar capabilities... difference is an NSX can be made allot lighter than a caymen since the NSX starts off loaded with options 200lbs lighter than the real 3200lbs weight of stripped Caymen GT4. and the NSX has overall lower center of gravity base due to the inherent modern crash protection design safety standards in addition to the NSX being 133mm (5inches) lower roof height overall, and has a lower seating position within the chassis. All contributing to significantly lower CG.
In the end its all physics, suspension mounting points and aero, the cayman did not revolutionize any of these. the NSX chassis is still highly relative to modern supercars, the Caymen GT4 is not much more than a 400hp engine into NSX-type chassis with the same up to date aero/suspension/brakes/tires that are available aftermarket additions to the NSX
Put an SOS 375whp 3.6L stroker in a 2002 NSXR, strap the GT4 spoiler and slitter to it, along with the same 245/295 Pilot cup sport 2's and Randy Pobst behind the wheel and it'll run the same times if not faster.
1: "Porsche has not invented some magic bullet in the GT4 that will outpace an NSX when modified with "COMPARABLE" tire sizes & compounds, COMPARABLE power to weight, brakes and suspension, and proper aero."
2: that Ryans N/A stock weight and power NSX was only 2 seconds slower than randy Pobst
consider, the GT4 has superior factory tested aero, larger diameter & wider tires (increased foot print)
Pobst would be a few seconds faster in any car than Ryan regardless how good an experienced/amateur driver Ryan is
adding a harness, and camber does not equal 2-3 seconds, (unless were also adding real race slicks)
I was running quicker track times than comparable driver/tires modified Caymen S in my previously stock-ish NSX for many years. (before turbo)
As far as future value comparing "limited production" of a chassis there are millions of, to an NSX there are 8800 of which is as rare as the Ferraris Tesarossa's 7500 production.
History already proved none of the caymen/boxter special editions have held value. Frankly no Porsches in general have proven to hold value, except the iconic 911... thus there is no precedent to predict any caymen version will hold value relative to the 911 mindset just because its Porsche, especially anywhere relative to the already collectible and extremely rare, appreciating NSX.
back to main subject , if RYUS NSX was to be properly track setup, with SAME tires and COMPARABLE aero, and SAME driver considering Ryu's 15% stronger PW and 17% lower weight, it should beat the caymen GT4 or any other car given the PW & weight advantages of that scenario.
the NSX has surprisingly similar wheel base as the GT4. the NSX wheelbase is actually 56mm longer and 9mm wider stock (with most aftermarket offsets increasing it to 60mm wider) .. the NSX with a virtually identical engine placement. both cars with equal aero, PW and tires and suspension will have very similar capabilities... difference is an NSX can be made allot lighter than a caymen since the NSX starts off loaded with options 200lbs lighter than the real 3200lbs weight of stripped Caymen GT4. and the NSX has overall lower center of gravity base due to the inherent modern crash protection design safety standards in addition to the NSX being 133mm (5inches) lower roof height overall, and has a lower seating position within the chassis. All contributing to significantly lower CG.
In the end its all physics, suspension mounting points and aero, the cayman did not revolutionize any of these. the NSX chassis is still highly relative to modern supercars, the Caymen GT4 is not much more than a 400hp engine into NSX-type chassis with the same up to date aero/suspension/brakes/tires that are available aftermarket additions to the NSX
Put an SOS 375whp 3.6L stroker in a 2002 NSXR, strap the GT4 spoiler and slitter to it, along with the same 245/295 Pilot cup sport 2's and Randy Pobst behind the wheel and it'll run the same times if not faster.
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I made 2 comparisons, the majority of my comments had to do with heavily modified NSX like RYU's
1: "Porsche has not invented some magic bullet in the GT4 that will outpace an NSX when modified with "COMPARABLE" tire sizes & compounds, COMPARABLE power to weight, brakes and suspension, and proper aero."
2: that Ryans N/A stock weight and power NSX was only 2 seconds slower than randy Pobst
consider, the GT4 has superior factory tested aero, larger diameter & wider tires (increased foot print)
Pobst would be a few seconds faster in any car than Ryan regardless how good an experienced/amateur driver Ryan is
adding a harness, and camber does not equal 2-3 seconds, (unless were also adding real race slicks)
I was running quicker track times than comparable driver/tires modified Caymen S in my previously stock-ish NSX for many years. (before turbo)
As far as future value comparing "limited production" of a chassis there are millions of, to an NSX there are 8800 of which is as rare as the Ferraris Tesarossa's 7500 production. History already proved none of the caymen/boxter special editions have held value. Frankly no Porsches in general have proven to hold value, except the iconic 911... i see people paying $1M for 1 year old special edition $200K MSRP 911R's and paying 350K for 3 year $175k MSRP GT3RS 4.0's.... while the GT4 sells much closer to MSRP.... thus there is no precedent to predict any caymen version will hold value relative to the 911, especially anywhere relative to the already proven collectible and appreciating NSX.
back to main subject , if RYUS NSX was to be properly track setup, with SAME tires and COMPARABLE aero, and SAME driver considering Ryu's 15% stronger PW and 17% lower weight, it should beat the caymen GT4 or any other car given the PW & weight advantages of that scenario.
the GT4 is surprisingly similar wheel base and with as the GT4.. the NSX wheelbase is actually 56mm longer and 9mm wider stock (with most aftermarket offsets increasing it to 60mm wider) .. the NSX with a virtually identical engine placement. both cars with equal aero, PW and tires and suspension will have very similar capabilities... difference is an NSX can be made allot lighter than a caymen since the NSX starts off loaded with options 200lbs lighter than the real 3200lbs weight of stripped Caymen GT4. and the NSX has overall lower center of gravity base due to the inherent modern crash protection design safety standards.
In the end its all physics, suspension mounting points and aero, the cayman did not revolutionize any of these. the NSX chassis is still highly relative to modern supercars, the Caymen GT4 is not much more than a 400hp engine into NSX-type chassis with the same up to date aero/suspension/brakes/tires that are available aftermarket additions to the NSX
I guess you like to pick and choose your talking points.
Again, Ryan's NSX has a double adjustable Penske race grade suspension with custom spring rates to optimize the use of the tires, he runs a harness, his car has aero, can't recall if his car is running the short gears or not, the car might look stock in regards to engine because it's NA, but it sure as hell can't be described as been a stock NA1 NSX.
A GT4 would run all day without having to worry about any kind of oil starvation issues. IE no need for an accusump like the NSX.
The GT4 runs struts instead of a double wishbone suspension like the NSX, as such a particular wheel loses camber as the suspension is loaded, that is why running -ve 3.0 degrees F/R on a Cayman platform makes such a difference in lap times. Having a F6 engine actually helps lower the center of gravity as well as the location of the transmission. The GT4 has a coilover suspension as such the car can be lowered substantially compared to what Randy was running at Laguna. Again, do your research instead of assuming that you know about the car without actually knowing the car.
BTW: Ryan had been racing karts competitively for years, as such his driving skills are up there.
Anways, the value of a modded NSX would not be anywhere close to an unmolested NSX.
The reasons why a GT4 will hold it's value, easy access to replacement engines given that the 3.8L DFI engine was produced in mass quantities, track ready from the get to instead of having to do endless mods like the NA1/NA2 NSX. Way larger market of prospective Porsche owners than the NSX, total number of GT4 imported to the US are probably closer to the 2000 mark for the entire run.
An unmolested NSX is a collectible a tracked and modded NSX is NOT a collectible.
Who's picking talking points, when I still never talked about a 100% stock NSX and every reference your making of my comments has been ignored that i made specific comparisons to lightly modded but stock "weight / power" and am well aware ryans NSX is not "stock"
and know that EMI built Ryan's pesnkes
i also know that ryan does not have real "aero", and that Ryan actually has a gurny flap zip-tied the oem wing by billy which is far inferior to the caymens aero and not even remotely adjusted nor refined, nor are we even close to a COMPARABLE aero setup i keep referring to
its unnecessary to tell me me i don't know what I'm talking about and "go research", when your just making up assumptions that camber and lowering a car and harness would lower lap times 2-3 seconds at Laguna. Which could not be any further from reality...
Your also comparing lowering cars and unaware THE NSX is 5 inches lower overall stock than the "factory lowered" caymen GT4 to begin with and a lightly modified street tire street alignment NSX can and does hold 1.2G according to billy's motec data logger in my car. you can copy paste specs all day but lap times and data loggers dont lie.
having raced karts for 10+ years and driven 25 different race tracks round the world myself, and being modestly quicker than average, I still wouldn't hold a candle nor would never even remotely compare myself to being within seconds of Randy Pobst.
the Fact is Ryan ran around laguna 2 seconds slower with his home made gurney flap zip-tied to spoiler and home-tuned suspension with oem-ish power / weight, than the factory track ready GT4 with randy Pobst behind the wheel.
Here is what your dismissing the close lap times argument and somehow justifying this as the "comparable" GT4 aero while I attempt to compare apples to apples... ill just leave your comprehension of the subject with this picture
Ryan's "aero" as you refer to it.
and know that EMI built Ryan's pesnkes
i also know that ryan does not have real "aero", and that Ryan actually has a gurny flap zip-tied the oem wing by billy which is far inferior to the caymens aero and not even remotely adjusted nor refined, nor are we even close to a COMPARABLE aero setup i keep referring to
its unnecessary to tell me me i don't know what I'm talking about and "go research", when your just making up assumptions that camber and lowering a car and harness would lower lap times 2-3 seconds at Laguna. Which could not be any further from reality...
Your also comparing lowering cars and unaware THE NSX is 5 inches lower overall stock than the "factory lowered" caymen GT4 to begin with and a lightly modified street tire street alignment NSX can and does hold 1.2G according to billy's motec data logger in my car. you can copy paste specs all day but lap times and data loggers dont lie.
having raced karts for 10+ years and driven 25 different race tracks round the world myself, and being modestly quicker than average, I still wouldn't hold a candle nor would never even remotely compare myself to being within seconds of Randy Pobst.
the Fact is Ryan ran around laguna 2 seconds slower with his home made gurney flap zip-tied to spoiler and home-tuned suspension with oem-ish power / weight, than the factory track ready GT4 with randy Pobst behind the wheel.
Here is what your dismissing the close lap times argument and somehow justifying this as the "comparable" GT4 aero while I attempt to compare apples to apples... ill just leave your comprehension of the subject with this picture
Ryan's "aero" as you refer to it.
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My question to you.. Have you owned and prepped a track ready Cayman? Have you driven LS in a NSX or a Cayman?
I have owned a track NSX and multiple Cayman's, and was about to get a GT4. so I am not just shooting the breeze.
I have friends who actually own GT4's who are within 1-2 seconds of Randy's lap times at LS, and these are drivers who are not at the same level as ryneen. So there was a lot that was left on the table when Randy drove the GT4 at LS given that it had stock ride height and alignment specs.
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i have driven track prepped caymens of a few varieties on the track, track prepped challenge Ferrari's, and 996 and 997 Cup cars on the track, and owned a track prepped 2500lbs 400whp older 911. but have never owned a caymen nor do i have any interest, and have never in my life been passed by any caymen on comparable tires and non-pro driver in the N/A NSX
Aren't your friends likely on slicks? thus running more aggressive camber and within 1-2 seconds of randy. Aggressive camber easily destroys street compounds..
If your so flabbergasted by by the GT4 then just buy one.
I'm @ 4.6PW / 2500lbs with the turbo NSX and trying to catch up to half million dollar 991 CUP race cars and Lamborghini Huracan supertrofeo race cars that go home in trailers.
I don't worry about street cars like GT4's nor GT3's and since the turbo haven't had to point anything by that drove itself to the track.
You mentioned you have a "track NSX", if you don't mind sharing, what weight and power, wheel/tires and suspension, brakes and areo are you running?
this was 3 weeks ago on 1 year old NT01 with a passenger: white 991 CUP race car, red Hurcan supertrofeo race car, silver radical... All on slicks and massively effective aero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM5RtzCpQ1w&t=45s
Aren't your friends likely on slicks? thus running more aggressive camber and within 1-2 seconds of randy. Aggressive camber easily destroys street compounds..
If your so flabbergasted by by the GT4 then just buy one.
I'm @ 4.6PW / 2500lbs with the turbo NSX and trying to catch up to half million dollar 991 CUP race cars and Lamborghini Huracan supertrofeo race cars that go home in trailers.
I don't worry about street cars like GT4's nor GT3's and since the turbo haven't had to point anything by that drove itself to the track.
You mentioned you have a "track NSX", if you don't mind sharing, what weight and power, wheel/tires and suspension, brakes and areo are you running?
this was 3 weeks ago on 1 year old NT01 with a passenger: white 991 CUP race car, red Hurcan supertrofeo race car, silver radical... All on slicks and massively effective aero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM5RtzCpQ1w&t=45s
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Not true. An IMSA-spec Cayman GT4 MR on the new 305 width slicks would be at a 1:33-1:34 max. MAYBE a high 1:32 on a good day.
The GT4 has a lot more aero than Ryan's car. If you put an equivalent wing on Ryan's car, it would also go faster. Ryan's probably leaving 1-2 seconds on the table driving wise, so his car is probably capable of 37's as is, and faster with GT4 equivalent aero.
The GT4 was not run in the stock alignment, it was prepped for track use alignment wise. I don't think the ride height could go much lower than what they ran in the BDC. Also the GT4's suspension is probably equivalent to Ryan's Penskes.
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Question: How the hell did a zip tied gurney flap pass a car inspection prior to running on track? One snap of a zip tie at 100mph would turn into a Hatori Hanzo sword.
What kind of hillbilly track allowed that setup to run? I couldn't even get that to pass in a LeMons race.
Oh - I'd keep the NSX as a nice GT cruiser. Get a turbo Miata if you want to drive hard!
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Lol.. yeah it's pretty ghetto but it does work..
Btw I want to be clear, I am in no way making fun of his car or setup. I talk to Ryan via email/messaging about his suspension setup ect, and realize he's a great driver, well above the average. I only referred to his example of modifications getting an N/A full weight NSX within seconds of modern "fast cars"
Btw I want to be clear, I am in no way making fun of his car or setup. I talk to Ryan via email/messaging about his suspension setup ect, and realize he's a great driver, well above the average. I only referred to his example of modifications getting an N/A full weight NSX within seconds of modern "fast cars"
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The redneck spoiler wraps around the leading edge of the wing. It doesn't need the zip ties to stay in place. Ryan just put them there for security. Zip ties are quite strong.
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