On a wing and a prayer

docjohn said:
Any of our regular trackers/racers or knowledgable high speed drivers care to give me befor- after impressions of rear wings.I'm interrested in something that produces some downforce(greater than stock) but that won't act as a wall at speeds over 120mph.Any subjective impressions accepted. :smile:From looks alone the taitec/max TaI spoiler looks ok,alternativly I'm open to the type R spoiler.

You'll get the most aerodynamnic benefit with the least penalty with a front splitter, under panels, diffuser, and a ducted hood/shroud. IMO, that is the best place to start with most production racers as in stock trim most vehicles have near zero downforce, pretty crappy turbulant aero, and these mods tend to be a great low-cost improvement point versus slapping on a big a$$ expensive CF JDM wing.

The reason being that unlike the other trimmings wings generate good downforce but with the added penalty of significant drag. More power as always is desirable to overcome this affect. The amount required can be calculated on paper but I have discovered is typically not as high as one might otherwise think. You'll often see production racers even in the low 300hp range with lots of aero working for them. The reason being is that it is an exponential equation so it thus tends to result in a net benefit for most road course speeds, and even wind tunnel tuning although ideal isn't always an immediate priority herein when your speeds are under about a buck 30.

In practice / seat of your pants testing, the Taitec JGTC wing was functional for me, just noticable, and did help keep the rear end planted at several points along the course. I would characterize its drag penalty, even in its full upright position which is where I left it most of the time, as being most definitely acceptable and its overall affect as 'ok'. All I can really say is "it was a little better." The S-Tai was about on par as well.

The Kawagen picnic bench coupled with the trunk lid has far more surface area, and is located up an over the roof line for maximum affect, typically locked into one of the lower positions as I had to really rein it in a little due to its sheer size.

Coupled with everything it does produce very significant usable down force. Absolutely most definitely noticable, with many co-driver comments to that affect. You can literally feel the affect during acceleration, or lift off the gas and feel the added drag during braking. During hard cornering, it tends to inspire a lot of driver confidence. In its full rake position it is entirely over kill. In its minimal position it is already noticable and you can just start to feel the added grip and hear it working as your speed increases up past 65.

For a short road course with relatively short straights like PIR (top speeds around 125-140mph) sacrificing top speed and some acceleration for cornering all in all is an excellent compromise, and the downforce benefits so amazingly noticable even at the lowest course speeds (~55 through the chicane) it is literally a night and day difference over stock.

The obvious downside to the system is drag, which combined with the frontal area of a wide front bumper, etc.. raises the vehicles coefficient of drag greatly. From some rough math, I'm would guess quite likely double of the .3-.32 range of stock trim. In comparison, a typical family sedan is in the range of .3-.4 and an F1 car's drag is about .75-.8

However, overall, my top speed/ entry speed into the braking zones is about consistent with before. Close enough not to really matter for non-timed events.

Everything told, I would argue that what is really important IMO is the feeling of confidence you get as driver having good usable downforce on a production racer. IMO, improving on aero is definitely worth the investment. Especially in the wet.
 
John@Microsoft said:
You'll get the most aerodynamnic benefit with the least penalty with a front splitter, under panels, diffuser, and a ducted hood/shroud. IMO, that is the best place to start with most production racers as in stock trim most vehicles have near zero downforce, pretty crappy turbulant aero, and these mods tend to be a great low-cost improvement point versus slapping on a big a$$ expensive CF JDM wing.

What low cost splitter, underpanel, diffuser, ducted hood combos are there?
 
lvrdnsx said:
What low cost splitter, underpanel, diffuser, ducted hood combos are there?

All kinds. It comes down to budget and personal priorities. You could likely do it all of the above modifications for under the cost of the expensive Taitec JDM wing if you wanted to, or you could spend 6 grand on a Dry Carbon Mugen fuel cover and call it a year. With such purchasing decisions it's a question of cost versus neccessity in my mind.

Most consumers purchase aero parts for coolness, aestetics, bling, or talking points. The non-essentials are more relevant to these consumers than performance, cost, or practicality.

If function and being practical truely need come first as might be the case on a club production wheel to wheel racer, then unless you have a truely unlimited commercial racing budget typically it is ideal to simply fabricate many of these items yourself instead of spending loads of cash on importing expensive blingy JDM CFRP ones that are often only marginally better. In summary, I would assert that if your focus is on function as opposed to form you can achieve the same level of benefit for a fraction of the cost with many of the above parts using a DIY or otherwise domestic approach.

For example, instead of splurging on a $1250 3D CFRP 4 way adjustable channeled splitter as I recently saw at a previous track day on the front of an otherwise stock BMW E36 (I think it was this one), the reality is that they could have garnered about 85% of the aerodynamic benefit with a simple 2D composite or plastic splitter for about $100 in materials. Over the long term, they may come to appreciate my point as splitters are damaged very easily and very often especially on pubic roads. In the specific instance I eluded to his ride height was too high and his underside exposed so it was like WHY? Diffusers are often further rather simple shapes and the same principles really tend to apply as with splitters.

Likewise, under panels can be cut from 4X8 sheets of fiberglass or aluminum. The material is strong and light weight enough for most applications. It runs about $200 in materials which are all locally available. It makes a great weekend project, and will further assure the best fit for your specific vehicle and the cost savings is significant over most direct vendor offerings.

If you want to go even more extreme, I've often see Miata guys simply cut & modify their stock hoods to duct them as opposed to even pony up $225 on eBay for a fiberglass one. Heh.. well, ok... whatever works.

While such low cost modifications are likely "not good enough" for most NSX owners with higher end street cars, if function truely comes before form, my point herein is universally applicable as the physics and principles behind racing are what are truely significant as it relates to performance.

IMO, thus, it would be impossible to make a compelling argument why you need to spend $4200 on a Procar dry carbon NSX-R style ducted hood replica to achieve a slight increase in cooling efficiency, weight reduction, and frontal downforce when there are alternatives that would net you the same level of function for about $425. From a performance view point a completely ridiculous decision as at 6X the cost you wouldn't have even garnered any significant measurable added benefit and you would likely be compromised on everything else. Again, to each's own.
 
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John-thanks for your lengthy and informative experience.
 
REAR WINGS WORK!!!!!!! They are NOT designed for help at ultra high speeds as much as they are for downforce in low and medium speeds! I cut almost a 1.5 seconds off my times at Lime Rock compared to my NSX-R style wing.....
 
What wing?,,1.5 sec at LRP is huge.
 
VintageracerNYC said:
REAR WINGS WORK!!!!!!! They are NOT designed for help at ultra high speeds as much as they are for downforce in low and medium speeds!
Would you clarify this?

Downforce is proportional to the square of speed. So a wing that generates 25 lbs. of downforce at 60 MPH would generate just over 6 lbs. at 30 MPH and 100 lbs. at 120 MPH. By "NOT designed for help at ultra high speeds" maybe you mean they decrease top speed with the extra drag they introduce. (?) I'm a bit confused.
 
Jerome:
What lap times are you pulling at Lime Rock?


VintageracerNYC said:
REAR WINGS WORK!!!!!!! They are NOT designed for help at ultra high speeds as much as they are for downforce in low and medium speeds! I cut almost a 1.5 seconds off my times at Lime Rock compared to my NSX-R style wing.....
 
Peter Mills said:
Jerome:
What lap times are you pulling at Lime Rock?
Yes do tell!
 
Chris - what front splitter options do you have for an 02+ that go on and off fairly easily?

Im considering a big ass wing, but Im under tired in the front with my 205/275 RA1 combo and Im concerned that the wing will turn the fronts from a "not that great" size to a "horrible" size without something that increases downforce up front too. And within RA1 sizing, Im limited on my front rubber options with a 7.5 inch rim.

Id want to be able to remove it fairly easily because I scrape the stock rubber one frequently (daily).
 
Dear Ojas indeed I mean decreased top speeds at the end of a long straight...Ok I am not a scientist like Ojas but am a racer with 25 years under my belt so my observations are more real world and less technical, although I do greatly understand the technical aspect of it all...The wing I have on my RACECAR is a JGTC style adjustable CF piece I paid $600.00 for from a local speed shop..its from some company like JSP or something like that.....I ran an NSX-R style CF from Downforce at Lime Rock 2 months ago and it looked great but was not very effective..now I know that increased downforce reduces top speeds at fast tracks like Daytona and Sebring where I also race but at a short track like Lime Rock I increased the angle of the wing for more downforce and it helped immensely! I am not an F1 level driver so at low and medium speed tracks I will gladly give up a few MPH at the END of the straight for increased corner speeds both on entry and exit...The wing has greatly reduced the tendency for power oversteer and has not only increased the rear end predictability but also, EQUALLY important, my confidence! The rear stays better planted giving me a LOT more faith in the rear staying put...I at the time already had a SOS front splitter on the car so the rear wing was the only change from the first time...I ran a 1:01.23 before and a 59:86 after...I will be racing at VIR in 4 weeks and will most likelt go to a slightly reduced angle than at LR and test my times..I have an onboard lap timer and the first day at the track [Thursday] is a full test day for us so I can play around with it....if you doubt their effectiveness on RACECARS just look at GrandAm and ALMS cars.
 
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