Any of our regular trackers/racers or knowledgable high speed drivers care to give me befor- after impressions of rear wings.I'm interrested in something that produces some downforce(greater than stock) but that won't act as a wall at speeds over 120mph.Any subjective impressions accepted. :smile:From looks alone the taitec/max TaI spoiler looks ok,alternativly I'm open to the type R spoiler.
On a wing and a prayer
- Thread starter docjohn
- Start date
Funny you should ask because there was a "rumor" floating around at the Comptech Day (AKA NSXPO 2005.5) that Shad was working on some semi-secret $hit for his R&D mule (AKA Kip's red rocket ship). Kip's goal is to get the necessary downforce without the BIG ASS WING we've all come to expect from the seriously whacked out boy racers. Kip, as you know, is a wolf in sheep's clothing, (unlike the rest of the Sacto crowd who are sheep in wolf's clothing. :redface
That's all I know, I swear.
You're on your own after this..............Right, like there won't be 1/2 the SF crowd chiming in with the minute details within minutes.
Seriously, your timing could not be better; sign up now before the list gets too long.
That's all I know, I swear.
You're on your own after this..............Right, like there won't be 1/2 the SF crowd chiming in with the minute details within minutes. Seriously, your timing could not be better; sign up now before the list gets too long.
John,
It is one of those cake and eat it too situations. To get appreciable downforce, you will get drag. The better designs reduce the drag to a small percentage, but it is still there.
My big ass biplane wing worked beautifully, but probably knocked 5-7 mph off long straight (140mph +) runs. It did make corners a lot more fun.
I do not think the Type R wing makes that much difference, but my version is just a generic setup and probably does not have the true aerodynamics of the Honda OEM setup.
I also feel that a scooped hood further aids the total equation.
I have the old RealTime NSX rear spoiler on the rat now, and will see how it does at VIR in December.
It is one of those cake and eat it too situations. To get appreciable downforce, you will get drag. The better designs reduce the drag to a small percentage, but it is still there.
My big ass biplane wing worked beautifully, but probably knocked 5-7 mph off long straight (140mph +) runs. It did make corners a lot more fun.
I do not think the Type R wing makes that much difference, but my version is just a generic setup and probably does not have the true aerodynamics of the Honda OEM setup.
I also feel that a scooped hood further aids the total equation.
I have the old RealTime NSX rear spoiler on the rat now, and will see how it does at VIR in December.
I think you have to consider how much power your car has as well... The Taitec wing looks a little like JGTC wing, but is slightly smaller. Though, the JGTC NSXs have over 500HP and the car is substantially lighter than ours. If you can get your hands on Realtime's wing, that might be the best solution option even if you don't have 400HP. I have an old Marga hills CF wing that is light and is effective, but overall I have never accurately timed the improvement at a particular track with only the rear wing modifications. Also, if you use a rear wing, I would get a good front splitter too.
The best way would be to test a variety of wings and try them throughout the day... I think this is the only real way to test its effectiveness based on your own driving performance.
The best way would be to test a variety of wings and try them throughout the day... I think this is the only real way to test its effectiveness based on your own driving performance.
Hi John,
I am not a "big wing" fan, but I did put the s-tai on my track car and so far it seems to work very well,
Because of its airfoil design, the amount of drag it produces is reduced, but still there.
It really comes down to HP, if you are going FI, then more DF is better for most US tracks, some places like Road America you need to compromise a little.
If staying NA, I would probably do a true NSXR shaped rear and a good rear diffuser( I love my Taitec), good tires and good suspension and the back end isnt going anywhere, Then you have to do significant front mods.(thats what I am working on now)
R hood, full undertray, and splitter.
I am not a "big wing" fan, but I did put the s-tai on my track car and so far it seems to work very well,
Because of its airfoil design, the amount of drag it produces is reduced, but still there.
It really comes down to HP, if you are going FI, then more DF is better for most US tracks, some places like Road America you need to compromise a little.
If staying NA, I would probably do a true NSXR shaped rear and a good rear diffuser( I love my Taitec), good tires and good suspension and the back end isnt going anywhere, Then you have to do significant front mods.(thats what I am working on now)
R hood, full undertray, and splitter.
Makes sense,yes my car will be NA.I'm also of the the school that on street cars turned track cars mechanical grip should be maxed before relying on aero grip,and that to optimize rear df we would need to max front df.I think I will try a vented hood/splitter and a type r low wing/diffuser comb
n the realtime car I remember PD talking about how #42 benefited from deep side skirts as well.Mike have you toyed with that idea of deeper skirts?
n the realtime car I remember PD talking about how #42 benefited from deep side skirts as well.Mike have you toyed with that idea of deeper skirts?
docjohn said:Makes sense,yes my car will be NA.I'm also of the the school that on street cars turned track cars mechanical grip should be maxed before relying on aero grip,and that to optimize rear df we would need to max front df.I think I will try a vented hood/splitter and a type r low wing/diffuser comb
I too agree with your stepwise reasoning :wink:
The dilemma that Shad is facing with Kip's car is by adding significantly more downforce with splitter and a new CF undertray (forthcoming), and might go with R type hood, but he still has to do something with the rear otherwise it will lift irrespective of how much more he increases the spring rates ..... :tongue:
docjohn said:Makes sense,yes my car will be NA.I'm also of the the school that on street cars turned track cars mechanical grip should be maxed before relying on aero grip,and that to optimize rear df we would need to max front df.I think I will try a vented hood/splitter and a type r low wing/diffuser comb
Once I get the front done I will do side skirts, I have a new set of Dali/?? mugen?? shirts that I have not put on. (been sitting a year).
The skirts will eventually help, but I am trying to take one step at a time to get everything working right. Also trying to gain as much mechanical grip as possible as I am adding more aero.
Make sure the aero is the last thing you do, as it only works at high speed. There is no point changing anything unless you have a rock hard set up.
FYI,
Remember seeing Tom's NSX (TC) using what looked like the RTR wing (he used to run the Dali wing before), shoot him an email or PM maybe he can give you some feedback as well.
P.S. I would personally not bother going for the NSX-R wing for the track, had that on the NSX and it provided very little downforce compared to the Phase/Marga Hills or the Route-KS wings that I've had on the NSX.
Then again the Route-KS wing has a *lot* of drag *and* downforce too, so much that the NSX topped out at only 135mph or so at CA Speedway last year and Pacifc Raceways earlier in the Summer this year
, but it works great at Infineon though.. 
Remember seeing Tom's NSX (TC) using what looked like the RTR wing (he used to run the Dali wing before), shoot him an email or PM maybe he can give you some feedback as well.
P.S. I would personally not bother going for the NSX-R wing for the track, had that on the NSX and it provided very little downforce compared to the Phase/Marga Hills or the Route-KS wings that I've had on the NSX.
Then again the Route-KS wing has a *lot* of drag *and* downforce too, so much that the NSX topped out at only 135mph or so at CA Speedway last year and Pacifc Raceways earlier in the Summer this year
, but it works great at Infineon though.. Thanks Ken,that was what I wanted to hear.I need a wing that will allow me to get to ~140 at the glen and 150 at pocono :frown: sad to say but at the 300-320 hp range na a real racing wing may be out of the ?.Actualy my thoughts currently are to custom fab a plexi gurney flap or lip to the stock wing or a faky type R wing.
So, Doc, Peter getting too close to your bumper? :biggrin:
I have the Taitec Type-R wing, painted black.
If you're interested in doing a deal for our wings, let me know...
I have the Taitec Type-R wing, painted black.
If you're interested in doing a deal for our wings, let me know...
docjohn said:
John,
Sorry about the tardy response. Top speed is not important unless you are really racing
If you can get through the corners faster and keep the rear end planted on track out, you will be faster than most if not all the cars within 100rwhp.If you want to try my biplane, let me know. It is gathering dust now, and I would like to hear someone else's opinion on it at speed.
I run speeds up to 140mph three seperate times each lap @ RA, and I have the oem rear. I really noticed the difference by adding the front lip (Cantrell or RM) to the car. I have not had any major issues with the rear as of yet. Next up for me is the Taitec diffuser and hood. The wing will be the last thing to play with. I hope to run with Kip this year @ RA as well.
I have a stock big-ass spoiler on my other car (shown in my avatar) and it's already painted yellow, perfect accessory for a bumblebee car.
Not for sale though.
RP-Motorsports said:
It's like big brakes Tom, you don't know what you are missing until you use it and then take it off
, or just get faster without and then put it on and go "OH $#&("Gary,,biplane wing,what do I look like? a barnstormer!!!:wink: Ken if I had some laundry to dry I might use that wing of yours:tongue: Thanks guys for the input and offers.I will probably end up with a type r wing with a small lexan gurney flap screwed to it.
hi Doc --
I recommend starting with this...
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ...NSX/Cantrell_Concepts/carbon_racing_splitter/
This will cut a lot of the air from entering under the car which causes lift. High speed stability in corners is noticeably improved.
I'd then take a look at the ducted hoods (I can't remember if your car has one). Improves cooling efficiency and decreases frontal lift from air being pushed under the car instead of over the cowl. This one is popular:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exterior_performance_products/NSX/NA1_NSX-R_Style_Hood/
We have a duct for these hoods coming out in about 2 weeks. It's nice.
Also to be released in about 2-3 weeks is our new front underbody tray modeled after the NSX-R.
We also have a new spoiler (it's big, sorry) in production that has a good downforce / drag ratio. Similar to the GruppeM/Mugen spoiler which is no longer in production. I believe Kip has selected this for the rear.
take care,
-- Chris
I recommend starting with this...
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ...NSX/Cantrell_Concepts/carbon_racing_splitter/
This will cut a lot of the air from entering under the car which causes lift. High speed stability in corners is noticeably improved.
I'd then take a look at the ducted hoods (I can't remember if your car has one). Improves cooling efficiency and decreases frontal lift from air being pushed under the car instead of over the cowl. This one is popular:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exterior_performance_products/NSX/NA1_NSX-R_Style_Hood/
We have a duct for these hoods coming out in about 2 weeks. It's nice.
Also to be released in about 2-3 weeks is our new front underbody tray modeled after the NSX-R.
We also have a new spoiler (it's big, sorry) in production that has a good downforce / drag ratio. Similar to the GruppeM/Mugen spoiler which is no longer in production. I believe Kip has selected this for the rear.
take care,
-- Chris
nsxtasy said:I have a stock big-ass spoiler on my other car (shown in my avatar) and it's already painted yellow, perfect accessory for a bumblebee car.Not for sale though.
A good friend of mine races his Type R in Honda Challenge and wondered if the rear wing was really useful. He ran VIR one weekend while instructing for CarGuys and said the back end was really loose on the uphill esses, so the wing went back on Monday.
docjohn said:
John,
The Germans used three in WWI, so it would only be a Sopwith Camel. You could be up there with Snoopy!!
At least make the gurney flap yellow, if not the entire spoiler
I agree with Chris about the hood, but it needs to be ducted, or else a Dali super deep dish setup to really be effective.
whats going on at Sebring and when????
NSXPO2006 - October 9th-15th
October 9th and 10th are track days at Sebring
HTH,
LarryB
October 9th and 10th are track days at Sebring
HTH,
LarryB
