Objective Purchasing Advice...

B-E-A-S-T

B-E-A-S-T

Contributing Member
Joined
11 August 2009
Messages
126
Location
Scarborough, Ontario, CANADA
I am seriously thinking about getting a pure mid engined exotic/hyper/super car or one with the potential to be such. I look into the marketplace of mid-engine vehicles since 1990 and the choices get pretty narrow, especially if one desires reasonable depreciation, operating/maintenance and insurance costs. I would also like something that would be somewhat rare on the road.

I love Ferrari's, and near to where I live there is an independent shop that just does work on them, they get cars from all over Canada. The owner of this shop cautioned me greatly when I told him of my desire of the F355 Targa's and 360 Spyder's. Ongoing maintenance is one thing, but every few years (and certain amount of miles) there are significant, engine removing maintenance procedures. In addition the insurance costs are very very high. One thing going for Ferrari's though is that depreciation is very reasonable. For now I have eliminated Ferrari's from the equation...

I also love Lambo's, particularly the Gallardo Spyder. I have not spoken to a service person about cost of maintenance but from what I understand they are very reliable and also depreciate very slowly. Insurance costs are very high as well. Where I stand now I am still considering this option but when I consider the performance, styling and interior equations I am actually leaning towards its' sister car the R8.

The Audi R8 is stunning in my mind from an interior and exterior styling (in person), my thoughts here would be to try and pick one up off someone's 2008 lease that has a reasonable residual value so that I ultimately outright own the car. Residual Values typically never take into account the premium someone paid for an early 2008 example + my maintenance would be covered for a while (cost saving) + most of the depreciation would have been eaten on the first year and a half...insurance is also much more reasonable for these cars...I currently drive an SMG so also like the RTronic option...the only negative about this car is the fact that there will be tons of them around...there is potential to mod this car in the future, which I like...

My other choice is a Ford GT. I love the styling and the retro modernist interior. I have seen good examples for US$115k. From Forums I have read these cars are pretty reliable, the performance numbers are amazing and upgradability is there. I would probably own and keep this car stock (maybe minor engine mods) which is good from a cost and recovery standpoint but I have to admit I love modding and growing with my cars. I do not know anything about maintenance costs and insurance yet...

My final and most relevant to this forum car is the NSX. I love the styling (the most minimalist of them all) and especially love the widebody kits, VROOM's car is my favourite car and currently my screen saver ;). I see that with the 3.5L Comptech built motor and a SOS/Comptech SC Intercooled one can get to approx 500rwhp and 400rwtq -- this would make it comparable to the Ford GT and faster than the R8. Insurance would be the cheapest, maintenance would be the most reasonable and based on the age of these cars the biggest depreciation hit has almost all been taken. For the interior, I love the styling but would probably do some mod work like I've seen on these forums. From a cost standpoint I think I would be looking at US$75+k including all mods so while it is cheaper, if I ever did resell I would lose a lot on the mods side.

Gentlemen, between the 2005 Ford GT, 2008 Audi R8 and a modded 1997+ NSX-T described above, what direction would you recommend I go in?

Thanks in Advance for all of your input.
 
There are lots of nsx vs R8, gallardo , Ferrari 355,360 articles on here and I think they would be a good read for you if they do not respond to this thread.
I would have to agree that the nsx is the easiest to own having had mine for the last 15 years with just basic maintenace its been trouble free. Mine is basically stock except for headers and exhaust and exterior mods. I would say that a 360 would be equally as easy to own as there is no engine out service with that car but getting into one might be alittle more costly then a 97 Nsx. Nsx's are not cheap to mod if your looking for HP and the gains for a safe mod are quite modest in caparision to what you can get from a modded Ford GT or gallardo. Hey what ever road you take best of luck but the nsx is definitly a car you should try out as many here will tell you theres nothing like it.
 
Where are you finding a Ford GT for $115K?:confused:
 
Not sure the math is right... I think the SoS stroker + Comptech + I/H/E + install is going to end up north of $35k and probably closer to $40k. A really clean 97+ is going to be in the $40s as well. So you are looking at closer to $80k+ Now Im going to assume you arent going to just ignore suspension and brakes after doing that level of engine work, so figure probably another $10k into the suspension and brakes. And another few grand for the clutch. The NSX will be close to $100k.

After all of that, I dont think the 3.5L+SC will make 500rwhp. I think if you, for whatever reason, feel you need that number you will need to go with a turbo setup

Which brings me to one last point which is that once you are talking about basically aftermarket everything, I think its very hard to keep the argument of "better reliability" and "cheaper service" going. The car will essentially have almost no relation to the original NSX and reliability and maintenance cost will be determined by all of those aftermarket providers.

If it were me, starting down a path with enough cash in hand to buy a Ford GT (which anywhere I've looked is like $160k, btw), and wanted THAT level of power, I wouldnt consider the NSX.

Its one thing to own one and over time mod your way up based on your evolving wants/needs. Or to be satisfied with 350-400rwhp which you can accomplish very easily without changing the fundamentals of the car much. But starting fresh with a goal of Ford GT or F430 performance in mind, I dont think the NSX is a good option.
 
Thank You for the responses.

To clarify, my friend bought an unmolested White with Blue Stripe Ford GT a few months ago for US$117,000. It had under 10,000miles. I've seen a few more on eBay/AutoTrader/Cars.com over the last few months...

I was thinking $35k-ish for the 1997 NSX-T and then the mods...I got the Hp and TQ figures from this post on the forum http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124205

Point taken with all of the bodywork and customization I would be looking at $80+k.

No one commented on the Audi R8.

Sounds like I am hearing do the Ford GT if you can find it at that price...
 
I guess this is why I asked for "Objective", sort of the, "if you were to do it again" and you had $100,000-120,000 as a starting point. I am hearing a Ford GT is a no brainer if one could find one at that price....Audi R8?
 
B-E-A-S-T said:
Thank You for the responses.

To clarify, my friend bought an unmolested White with Blue Stripe Ford GT a few months ago for US$117,000. It had under 10,000miles. I've seen a few more on eBay/AutoTrader/Cars.com over the last few months...

I was thinking $35k-ish for the 1997 NSX-T and then the mods...I got the Hp and TQ figures from this post on the forum http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124205

Point taken with all of the bodywork and customization I would be looking at $80+k.

No one commented on the Audi R8.

Sounds like I am hearing do the Ford GT if you can find it at that price...
Click to expand...

Well... This can be argued all day, but IMO (having just come off 6 mths of looking and finally buying), a $35k 97+ has accident/paint history. If anyone got one for $35k recently and cares to put it to the test, Id be happy to take a look ;) Every 97+ I looked at below $40 had paintwork I could point out easily to the seller.

Now of course that might not matter in which case yes, you could get one in that range.

As for the mods, I have to take another look I guess, but my impression of the 3.5L with SC was more like 450whp.

Without bodywork, I still think you would be very wise to budget $100k.

All of that said, I would stick with a new car if you have that kind of money.

The R8 is an excellent choice as well. I think it probably just got overwhelmed by the GT love :D

EDIT: Just checked that thread... I had remembered reading that one and it doesnt look like the question of whether that was at the wheels or not was fully resolved. Would be interesting anyhow, to see how many folks have stroker+SC and what #s they are putting down. There are probably threads in the FI forum worth searching. I havent paid super close attention b/c I dont have an interest in that level of power and am much more interested in staying as close as possible to stock when modding...
 
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I guess a different question, and it is something I wonder often -- Is paying $40k for a good condition, low mileage 1997+ NSX-T a steal because it is like getting 80% of the performance for 40% of the cost? I guess that is looking top down, bottom up would be comparing said NSX to a Porsche Cayman S and making the argument that it is too expensive??
 
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I think this is entirely subjective really. It comes down to what you are looking for.

When I was in the market for my current NSX (my 3rd so far) I was cross shopping 996 Turbos, late model Lotus Esprit, Gen 2 and Gen 3 Vipers and Corvette C6/C5 Z06. All were in the 40s, so all same or less than a new Cayman.

It's extremely difficult to measure value used vs. new.

The NSX was a once in a lifetime experiment that has a place in history and will be remembered as the time when Japan seriously challenged Ferrari.

It is a bittersweet memory b/c it seems the experiment was fleeting and there is no desire to go down that path again.

At the time of its release the NSX had an enormous range of "technical firsts" to its credit and the praise it garnered was almost universal.

I see the NSX today as a "classic" car. The Cayman is just a new Cayman. There are zillions of them and it isn't historically significant. That said, it is likely better in every objective performance measure than a stock NA2 NSX and it has a warranty.

One thing that brought me back to the NSX though, and it is something you cannot fix aftermarket, is that the ergonomics, visibility and driving position of the NSX have never been equalled by any car I've driven (and I've driven a bunch).
 
B-E-A-S-T said:
I guess a different question, and it is something I wonder often -- Is paying $40k for a good condition, low mileage 1997+ NSX-T a steal because it is like getting 80% of the performance for 40% of the cost? I guess that is looking top down, bottom up would be comparing said NSX to a Porsche Cayman S and making the argument that it is too expensive??
Click to expand...

It depends if money is an issue and what you want the car for. Comparing a Cayman S to an NSX is like getting 100% of the performance for 40% of the cost. I can say this because I track often with the PCA and lots of 911s and Cayman S and the Cayman is almost exactly matched on the track with a NSX.

However, if I wanted a car for daily driving, hands down a Cayman S. The NSX is NOT a modern car and is missing a lot of small creature comforts that are available in the Cayman.
 
Thinking a bit more about this, I think the thing with the NSX (and the reason these types of threads are so common) is because the NSX looks FAR more exotic than anything remotely close to the price (with the exception of the Lotus Esprit and the Viper)

But unlike the Lotus, it is reasonable to both buy *and* live with. And unlike the Viper, it is easy to drive and has a fair bit of refinement. But as the saying goes, you have to pay to play. It is a testament to the NSX design that people still want to try to "make it work" (or a testament to the human ego :D), but the fact is, as CL65 pointed out, it IS an old car at this point.

I think you have to almost need to make excuses to NOT buy one (because of the strength of your passion for the car) for it to be the right thing to buy.

If it just seems like an easy way to "look pimp" on the boulevard (not saying that is the intent of the OP - just that this is a very common source of interest in the car now that it has become reasonably cheap), it is almost certain to disappoint.
 
This is not going to be a daily driver for me, I have a Overfinch Land Rover Range Rover for October to March and a heavily modded, Superchrged and Intercooled 2003 E46 M3 Convertible (@500rwhp) for April to September...so this last vehicle is going to be very occasional (special occasion), summer only and track driven vehicle for me...don't know about "pimp" but I definitely want this to be some sort of statement vehicle for me...I also don't mind spending as this vehicle will be babied...

I really don't like 911's or Cayman's, I am not a porsche guy. I also do not care for the over muscled look of the viper/corvette and I have never been interested in the Lotus for some reason but it is the best of the bunch you have mentioned. This will be my first foray into an exotic and I want a mid-engine vehicle which is why I ended up as the Ford GT, Audi R8 and the modified NSX as my short list...something very low and wide in presence...

I think of the R8 as the modern NSX...so maybe the NSX is a Classic Car as you state...as for the Ford GT that is a whole other matter. I am looking for ultimate performance with handling balance and also rarity and stunning looks. I plan to keep the car forever, as I have all my other cars, so I am not worried about resale etc...

Does any of this information help in your recommendation to me?
 
I would consider the R8 because I agree it's most like the "modern NSX". However, I have driven the V8 model and the gearbox was friggin' annoying...slow between shifts and IMO harsh. Whatever you do/decide on, please drive all the cars in question before you make your final decision.

Jeff
 
B-E-A-S-T said:
This is not going to be a daily driver for me, I have a Overfinch Land Rover Range Rover for October to March and a heavily modded, Superchrged and Intercooled 2003 E46 M3 Convertible (@500rwhp) for April to September...so this last vehicle is going to be very occasional (special occasion), summer only and track driven vehicle for me...don't know about "pimp" but I definitely want this to be some sort of statement vehicle for me...I also don't mind spending as this vehicle will be babied...

I really don't like 911's or Cayman's, I am not a porsche guy. I also do not care for the over muscled look of the viper/corvette and I have never been interested in the Lotus for some reason but it is the best of the bunch you have mentioned. This will be my first foray into an exotic and I want a mid-engine vehicle which is why I ended up as the Ford GT, Audi R8 and the modified NSX as my short list...something very low and wide in presence...

I think of the R8 as the modern NSX...so maybe the NSX is a Classic Car as you state...as for the Ford GT that is a whole other matter. I am looking for ultimate performance with handling balance and also rarity and stunning looks. I plan to keep the car forever, as I have all my other cars, so I am not worried about resale etc...

Does any of this information help in your recommendation to me?
Click to expand...


Hmm, what about a 2 for one? In what I mean as the Ford GT is really good and that thing does move, I'd still suggest a 05+ Gallardo. The prices start at 100 or so now. If you like the look of the new one there is a polyurethane LP560 bumper look for it so that does make it seem nice.

The Gallardo will have the super special presence on the road and does perform decently on the track. Should you get tired of it or wish for more power, for about another 30k, there are some 'reliable' turbo's running around from UGR and Heffner (I suggest Heffner after reading into both quite a bit if you want reliability at least). And although those put nearly 300 more hp to the ground, the boost control will help on the track and should you have a straight, you can lay waste to people on a drag strip as well.


Of course the downsides become obvious here...on a track a Gallardo will Never keep up with a Ford GT and unless your drag track is less than 1/2 mile, the Ford GT will pull away with the same amount of power. The AWD does help with kick off and lower speeds though.

Your M3 is already pushing so much power that I believe the NSX is not worth it for you at all, especially for what you want to do with it. It's a great car but I think you need to go a bit higher end on this one.
 
Objective advice on NSXs is hard to come by here but you've got some pretty good advice.

Just to add - If you have the funds available that you seem to have an NSX is not going to equal the thrill of the Ford GT- no way! Nor will it equal the experience you have in a Murcialago or R8 or anyother V8 powered super car - so that's the long and short of it.

If your looking for power in big quantity then the NSX isn't it and I wouldn't buy an NSX and start heavily modding the car just for super power "grins". The NSX is a particular auto and must be understood for what it is and not what it "could have been or could be" if it just had turbo power and a 3.5 Comptech engine, etc.

There are those on this site that have superchargers or turbos and have modded the heck out of their cars but for everyone of them is the overwhelming drive by new prospective owners that like the NSX to find one that is stock. It's a wonderful car stock - but it is not a Z06 or a Ford GT or a Ferrari Enzo or Lambo or Astin Martin - no it's not and never will be no matter what you do to it, it will not impress others like the ones I've just mentioned nor will it perform to those levels. If you have a stable of cars then you might want an NSX just for the NSX experience but not to mod it to be a 500 lb. gorilla and think you'll be satisfied that you have a "world beater". Cause in the end it's a Honda and it's not as exotice inside and will not impress like a big money super car, it just won't.

The NSX is a wonderful car and in some definition it's a "reasonably economic" man's Ferarri. It will hold its own against many cars out there today but not the Ford GT or something in that catagory with a huge hp v8 or V12.

Drive one and drive the others and you quickly answer your own question.

My 2 cents worth and I love my NSX
 
B-E-A-S-T said:
I guess this is why I asked for "Objective", sort of the, "if you were to do it again" and you had $100,000-120,000 as a starting point. I am hearing a Ford GT is a no brainer if one could find one at that price....Audi R8?
Click to expand...


We have had this one ford GT sitting at this dealership for a year or more and my friend told me he wants 119,000 soooo you can find the GT's in that range for sure. I would put the skyline GTR in your list of maybe's also. I know its not mid engine but it still preforms pretty well for the price.
 
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To answer a few questions...

No interest in the GT-R, styling is not my cup of tea.

As for the Wow factor, I find VRoom's NSX as one of the prettiest cars I have ever seen...part Zonda, part Enzo and part McLaren F1...it doesn't get more unique than that folks...seeing NSX's like that keeps this car on my list, as pretty and unique or more so than a Ford GT...Same goes for VRoom's interior...wish he would do cars for people...

"liftnot" was kind enough to post that link, #1 it is not Targa and more importantly #2 it is a turbo, the power delivery of which I do not like. I also think turbos are in need of more care, constant tune etc....Superchargers I feel accentuate the stock power delivery charecteristics....

One point to be taken from that posting though is that maybe what I should be looking for is a 1995+ NSX-T, 6 speed transmission, 3.5L CompTech ShortBlock, SoS Supercharger and Intercooled as a starting point for $35-40k...I could then do the exterior/interior mods to my liking and still be in for around $50k....such a car would do 0-60 in the mid 3's and an impressive top speed....hmmm I'll have to think about it some more...

If I take some of the other advice at face value, I should buy a Ford GT. At the outset of my process the Ford GT was my number one choice and the R8 and modded NSX as I describe tied for second...I will drive the GT and R8 for sure, a supercharged NSX maybe harder to find though...

Thanks again everyone for your input
 
Greetings

What are you looking for? A daily driver? A weekend driver? Need a little more information.

I drove a Ford GT before buying my NSX. You have to REALLY pay attention when you drive one. They are very sensitive and will change lanes on you in the blink of an eye. The only ones that I found on the web today for $100K US are replicas.

I bought an NSX because I wanted a daily driver -- drive mine to work every day, rain or shine, all year long. I drove 46 cars in my car shopping quest. I felt there were only 2 that qualified as daily drivers, and I bought one of them.

Good Luck
Martin
 
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To Martin,

What was your other choice for a daily?

I have a friend that has a Ford GT and he uses it as a daily or almost a daily. The lack of a decent trunk makes it pretty useless for long trips I think.

I use my NSX as a partial daily - try to keep it out of the rain but got caught out in it this weekend - sure don't have to worry about rust.
 

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