Numbers question: NSX vs 350Z
- Thread starter lemansnsx
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Gearing, Power to Weight Ratio, Torque to Weight Ratio
How much torque across how many RPM's as opposed to just peak numbers...
Traction. (NSX has more weight over rear wheels)
There are alot of variables.
I don't know the Z specs off the top of my head. Anyone want to post them?
How much torque across how many RPM's as opposed to just peak numbers...
Traction. (NSX has more weight over rear wheels)
There are alot of variables.
I don't know the Z specs off the top of my head. Anyone want to post them?
Specs still seem to be somewhat hard to come by. Power MIGHT BE 280 hp, weight MIGHT BE 3200 pounds, but you can't find the actual numbers on Nissan's 350Z website.
I'm not sure if the 350 was included, but Nissan recently released a statement that some of their early HP quotes for '02 models were optimistic.
Besides that, the most important points factors were already noted by Edo. Unless weight is significantly higher, I'd bet on gearing and the shape of the power curve, but all the factors he mentioned are relevant and can easily add up to the difference.
Besides that, the most important points factors were already noted by Edo. Unless weight is significantly higher, I'd bet on gearing and the shape of the power curve, but all the factors he mentioned are relevant and can easily add up to the difference.
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It's also possible that the manufacturer's 0-60 specs are conservative.
Keep in mind that we're talking about differences of less than a second here. Once it's in production, and we find out the REAL hp and weight numbers, and all the magazines get their hands on it and we see their test results, we'll probably have a better idea of how it all makes sense.
Keep in mind that we're talking about differences of less than a second here. Once it's in production, and we find out the REAL hp and weight numbers, and all the magazines get their hands on it and we see their test results, we'll probably have a better idea of how it all makes sense.
I think what i find more disturbing on this thread is, how does a $30K car built with "conventional" steel iron can weigh almost as light(about 100 pounds heavier) as the so-called "aluminium exotic". No intention to light a flaming war here, but I suppose Honda could have built the NSX with steel and charge less for it. If that was done, we could have seen more NSXs rather than Porsches on the street today.
With the steel-bodied 911/996, Porsche has shown that its possible to build them from steel, come out lighter than aluminum, but cost about the same.
IIRC, Corvettes still use a lot of fiberglass.
IIRC, Corvettes still use a lot of fiberglass.
I would not say that the steel body of Porsche costs really the same... if you think that they have for sure a much bigger mark-up because of brand, prestige & heritage and the final cost of the car is lower/same of the cost for an nsx, I would say that the price for the porsche production is quite a bit lower than the production price of the nsx!
Either this, or Honda is robbing us!
Either this, or Honda is robbing us!
I would say that the price for the porsche production is quite a bit lower than the production price of the nsx!
Absolutely. In fact, I'm quite certain that Honda loses money on every NSX they build. But, unlike Porsche, Honda can offset those losses with profits from lots of Odysseys, Accords, and MDX's (among others).
Absolutely. In fact, I'm quite certain that Honda loses money on every NSX they build. But, unlike Porsche, Honda can offset those losses with profits from lots of Odysseys, Accords, and MDX's (among others).
Originally posted by gheba_nsx:
I would not say that the steel body of Porsche costs really the same... if you think that they have for sure a much bigger mark-up because of brand, prestige & heritage and the final cost of the car is lower/same of the cost for an nsx, I would say that the price for the porsche production is quite a bit lower than the production price of the nsx!
Either this, or Honda is robbing us!
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if an equivalent weight car can be produced from steel rather than aluminum for less cost, why use the aluminimun? I'm presuming chassis stiffness is comparable between the 911s and the NSX (an incorrect presumption?)
Why? technology improves!
What was possible in '96 (911-996) was probably not possible in '88 (nsx)...
I am sure you can build a much better aluminium car starting from scratch with today's knowledge...
What was possible in '96 (911-996) was probably not possible in '88 (nsx)...
I am sure you can build a much better aluminium car starting from scratch with today's knowledge...
Honda claims that they saved around 500 pounds of weight by making the body of the NSX in aluminum rather than steel.
IMO the question still remains, why it would have weighed so much (3500 pounds). Or, put another way, why the NSX still weighs as much as it does. My Integra weighs 2639 pounds and it's the exact same length and taller. Granted, the NSX engine is bigger, but 400 pounds is a big difference.
IMO the question still remains, why it would have weighed so much (3500 pounds). Or, put another way, why the NSX still weighs as much as it does. My Integra weighs 2639 pounds and it's the exact same length and taller. Granted, the NSX engine is bigger, but 400 pounds is a big difference.
What about an improvement in the composition of the steel used for automotive purposes over the past years?
My son John (an NSX owner)is a product planning manager at Nissan in charge of the new Z and the future GTR. I don't think he reads this board (a couple of guys here know why)and he could shed some light on the question. I will ask him to do so. IMHO, the Z is one hell of a buy at $26K, even at $34K for the Track version. Both his and my NSX may have to replaced by a Z if Honda doesn't come thru with better value in the next couple of years !
Tino S.
Tino S.
I mis-spoke there -- what I really meant to say, "and charge for / price it at a comparable amount".
I agree -- the "cost to produce" for (non-special alloy) steel is lower than that of aluminum.
Porsche markup is IMO higher than NSX, as they don't have a "volume fleet" (ala Civic, Accord, Integra/RSX) to offset the lower margins.
[This message has been edited by cojones (edited 22 January 2002).]
That's true -- the Corvette C5 chassis benefits from some of these improvements.
Aluminum fabrication has advanced as well -- Audi and Lotus (amongst others) have pioneered some pretty interesting innovations -- the lightweight frame on the A8 and the "glue on" panels on the Elise, as two common examples.
Would you rather have a more common, higher-volume vehicle, or a rarer limited-quantity exotic ??
As an extreme example, Pagani manufactures 25 Zonda motorcars every year. I know of only 2-3 in the US so far.
Hey guys,
Interesting you would think that the NSX
(3.0L or 3.2L) would have a broader power band than a 3.5L Nissan VQ35. Granted gearing has everything to do with power to the ground, but the 3.5L VQ in the Maxima, upcoming G35 and current Altima has a more powerful torque curve than the NSX could ever dream of having at any RPM. The NSX is a purely linear HP band with a flat (albeit low) torque curve. Hence, the 4.00? Final drive in the NSX and the 8,000 RPM redline.
The VQ engine series is rather good and often overlooked. It has the same open deck aluminum design as Honda engines, but with a heck of a lot more low, mid and high-end torque. Granted the HP/per liter is not as good, the extra low end torque provides for excellent driveability.
The better question might be from a price standpoint. How does the 350Z compare to the S2000...the 350Z starts around $5000 (26,200-34,000) less than the S2000 AND offers a 3.5L V6, Aluminum multi-link suspension, LSD, HID's, 18" Rays forged aluminum wheels, and even offers 4-wheel Brembo brakes on the Track Model.
Don't get me wrong...I have a 91 NSX...but displacement is displacement and the 350Z is quite the bang for the buck. Delears have been taking orders for a week now...with the 350Z pre-sell program. I'll bet it'll give an NSX a run for it's money, and given the numbers should BLOW AWAY an S2000....
John
Interesting you would think that the NSX
(3.0L or 3.2L) would have a broader power band than a 3.5L Nissan VQ35. Granted gearing has everything to do with power to the ground, but the 3.5L VQ in the Maxima, upcoming G35 and current Altima has a more powerful torque curve than the NSX could ever dream of having at any RPM. The NSX is a purely linear HP band with a flat (albeit low) torque curve. Hence, the 4.00? Final drive in the NSX and the 8,000 RPM redline.
The VQ engine series is rather good and often overlooked. It has the same open deck aluminum design as Honda engines, but with a heck of a lot more low, mid and high-end torque. Granted the HP/per liter is not as good, the extra low end torque provides for excellent driveability.
The better question might be from a price standpoint. How does the 350Z compare to the S2000...the 350Z starts around $5000 (26,200-34,000) less than the S2000 AND offers a 3.5L V6, Aluminum multi-link suspension, LSD, HID's, 18" Rays forged aluminum wheels, and even offers 4-wheel Brembo brakes on the Track Model.
Don't get me wrong...I have a 91 NSX...but displacement is displacement and the 350Z is quite the bang for the buck. Delears have been taking orders for a week now...with the 350Z pre-sell program. I'll bet it'll give an NSX a run for it's money, and given the numbers should BLOW AWAY an S2000....
John
Hey guys,
Interesting you would think that the NSX
(3.0L or 3.2L) would have a broader power band than a 3.5L Nissan VQ35. Granted gearing has everything to do with power to the ground, but the 3.5L VQ in the Maxima, upcoming G35 and current Altima has a more powerful torque curve than the NSX could ever dream of having at any RPM. The NSX is a purely linear HP band with a flat (allbeit low) torque curve. Hence, the 4.00? Final drive in the NSX and the 8,000 RPM redline.
The VQ engine series is rather good and often overlooked. It has the same open deck aluminum design as Honda engines, but with a heck of a lot more low, mid and high-end torque. Granted the HP/per liter is not as good, the extra low end torque provides for excellent driveability.
The better question might be from a price standpoint. How does the 350Z compare to the S2000...the 350Z starts around $5000 (26,200-34,000) less than the S2000 AND offers a 3.5L V6, Aluminum multi-link suspension, LSD, HID's, 18" Rays forged aluminum wheels, and even offers 4-wheel Brembo brakes on the Track Model.
Don't get me wrong...I have a 91 NSX...but displacement is displacement and the 350Z is quite the bang for the buck. Delears have been taking orders for a week now...with the 350Z pre-sell program. I'll bet it'll give an NSX a run for it's money, and given the numbers should BLOW AWAY an S2000....
John
Interesting you would think that the NSX
(3.0L or 3.2L) would have a broader power band than a 3.5L Nissan VQ35. Granted gearing has everything to do with power to the ground, but the 3.5L VQ in the Maxima, upcoming G35 and current Altima has a more powerful torque curve than the NSX could ever dream of having at any RPM. The NSX is a purely linear HP band with a flat (allbeit low) torque curve. Hence, the 4.00? Final drive in the NSX and the 8,000 RPM redline.
The VQ engine series is rather good and often overlooked. It has the same open deck aluminum design as Honda engines, but with a heck of a lot more low, mid and high-end torque. Granted the HP/per liter is not as good, the extra low end torque provides for excellent driveability.
The better question might be from a price standpoint. How does the 350Z compare to the S2000...the 350Z starts around $5000 (26,200-34,000) less than the S2000 AND offers a 3.5L V6, Aluminum multi-link suspension, LSD, HID's, 18" Rays forged aluminum wheels, and even offers 4-wheel Brembo brakes on the Track Model.
Don't get me wrong...I have a 91 NSX...but displacement is displacement and the 350Z is quite the bang for the buck. Delears have been taking orders for a week now...with the 350Z pre-sell program. I'll bet it'll give an NSX a run for it's money, and given the numbers should BLOW AWAY an S2000....
John
jstramotas, you live in PVE as in Palos Verdes Estates? If so we might be neighbors! Anyways, back to this topic. I just wanted to add some more thoughts to this subject. I think the points mentioned are all valid and well thought. We have the weight factor, the gearing factor, the power curve factor, and so on and so forth. Not really mentioned in depth is the transmission factor. I'm not talking about 5 speed vs 6 speed, that probably falls into gearing. I'm talking about drive train loss. I'm talking about a good transmission and a good drive line that retains most of the hp from the crank. I've tested cars with the same hp rated at the crank, but the hp to the wheels are totally different. I have test AWD sports cars and the drivetrain loss is enormous, but is compensated with the AWD traction. I really don't know how to answer this "350Z vs NSX" numbers question. I just wanted to add another point of view.
Ryan
Ryan
Does the VQ35 pull to 8000 RPM? If so, then that may not be an issue since I would hope that 11 years later Nissan is doing things comparable to VTEC. (I was a big Datsun fan but Nissan long ago lost my interest, so I don’t know what they have.) However, "broad" means it pulls over a wide RPM range. "Flat" means it pulls nearly as had at both ends as in the middle. So, even if the VQ35 has a nice flat torque band, it may not have as broad a power band as the NSX. But it very well may have. The real point was that peak numbers are potentially very misleading.
RyRy210's comment about drive train losses is another good point. Most of what we've seen suggests that the NSX is far above average in this area.
Well I haven't read all the other post here very thoroughly so excuse me if this has been said already. 0-60 in 5.8 for the 350Z will for sure be a pessimistic figure, considering a 240hp Altima has been timed at 5.8 you can bet the 350Z will outpace it for sure, with 2 less door, more hp and lighter weight than the Altima. Obviously 0-60 times from car to car are not only a hp influenced number. You have to take into consideration gearing, drivetrain losses, grip from tires, conditions, the car itself and weight transfer (see grip).
The new Z does look promising, and a 300hp lighweight track model with brembo's etc, looks pretty good on paper so far. Could easily be a sub 5 sec 0-60 car, and with a potential turbo or V8 model in development, 8 speed CVT tranny, you can only imagine the possibilities. Having said all this the platform is stilled shared with the skyline and altima so dynamically I can't see it ever having the handling potential of a NSX which is a purpose built sportscar through and through.
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