NSX-R vs. 911 GT3

NetViper

NetViper

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Top gear finally reviewed the 911 GT3 and on the same racetrack in similar weather conditions the 911 GT3 lapped the track in 127.2 vs the NSX-R in 133. Even if you subtract 4 seconds for a wet track, the NSX-R is over 2 seconds slower than a GT3.

Wow.. that thing is impressive. I bet if the NSX-R had a SC on it, it would be at least a competition.

So right there is the reason i think the HSC/next NSX should have at least 400 HP. Even with the reduced weight of the NSX-R, it was wiped out by a GT3.

You can see both videos on racingflix.com
 
...It (GT3) certainly is impressive Netviper...this was actually the point I was trying to make in another discussion on this board "http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=24318" ...about how impressive the Porsche 911 GT3's and GT2's are on the track* They're more impressive than just the sum of their numbers....for example, someone might falsely think a Z06 is more impressive than a GT3 becuase it has a little more power at roughly the same weight...this is an ignorant and superficial analysis* (to say the least). A lot of people just don't understand all the other fundamentals that go into a sports (or race)car being fast and impressive on a track.
The GT3 has many years of refined suspension design, re-calibration, production methods, etc...built into it from direct racing knowledge on the track...this is NOT true for vettes. (And NO, your street vettes share nothing with the ones on the american le-mans series, LOL....whereas the 911 GT3-R's DO with the street GT3)
Thank low polar inertia up front from having little of its mass there (making for quick change in direction), thank a rear-engine layout allow for near-perfect traction coming out of a corner (and in the wet or slick conditions altogether), over-engineered dry-sump engine (reliability under extended pure racing conditions), intercooled racing transaxle (reliability under extended pure racing conditions), fortified suspension points all throughout (handling/feedback), etc....as impressive as the GT3's stats and numbers are...in practice* (on the track) its real-world performance is even more impressive. Certainly worth it's 100K price-tag IMO.


PS: IMHO the hardtop NSX's ARE on par with the GT3s (thats saying a lot*)...just underpowered compared to them...a nice boost in overall HP (with emphasis on the low-end) will eliminate that completely (i.e. a nice turbo kit ;) ;) )
 
j14nsx said:
Errr... the track was wet for the NSX and the 911. So doesn't that make the 911 6 seconds faster?
Click to expand...

Well, they said take off 4 seconds for a wet track. The track for the NSX was worse than the GT3 though.

That would mean on a dry track:

NSX-R 1:29.

GT3 1:23! -- Same as the Pagani Zonda!
 
NSXTASY_MD said:
A lot of people just don't understand all the other fundamentals that go into a sports (or race)car being fast and impressive on a track.

Thank low polar inertia up front from having little of its mass there (making for quick change in direction), thank a rear-engine layout allow for near-perfect traction coming out of a corner (and in the wet or slick conditions altogether)
Click to expand...

UNbelievable. I had assumed that your observations in this thread were merely the result of personal bias clouding objective judgement, but after this latest comment, I now understand that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Any first-year engineering student will tell you that a rear-engined layout (one wherein the engine sits behind the rear axle, i.e. the Porsche 911) is fundamentally the most unstable chassis configuration in a corner. Think of the pendulum effect; once the back end starts to come around in a corner, it's lost completely. There is no need to look "beneath the surface" on this one, and don't accuse me of using "skewed facts" because this is an inarguable law of physics. The fact that you don't know this means you pulled your comments above out of thin air (or somewhere else).

The only reason a Porsche handles well is that their engineers have spent the last 40 years engineering out the shortcomings in what is an inherently flawed design to begin with. There is a reason that the VW Beetle is the only other mass-produced rear-engine car available today.

[/QUOTE]They're more impressive than just the sum of their numbers....for example, someone might falsely think a Z06 is more impressive than a GT3 becuase it has a little more power at roughly the same weight...this is an ignorant and superficial analysis* (to say the least). A lot of people just don't understand all the other fundamentals that go into a sports (or race)car being fast and impressive on a track.
The GT3 has many years of refined suspension design, re-calibration, production methods, etc...built into it from direct racing knowledge on the track...this is NOT true for vettes. (And NO, your street vettes share nothing with the ones on the american le-mans series, LOL....whereas the 911 GT3-R's DO with the street GT3)
Ahh yes, now we come to every non-Vette forum's favorite whipping boy, the Z06. Obviously my signature indicates that I own one, but that purchase was made after an objective appraisal of its performance during a rental in Vegas, without prejudice towards prestige, name, or perception. Your comments about both cars just reek of ignorance, indicating that you have driven neither, thus, yours is the "ignorant and superficial analysis."

The fact that a standard C5 Corvette is the dream car of every 50-year-old going through a mid-life crisis does not diminish the Z06's status as one of the best sports cars available, period. The only thing low-tech is the pushrod V-8 (which, I might add, has nearly as much torque as the new Porsche Carrera GT). The hydroformed chassis rails, 6-spd Tremec transAXLE, reinforced and stiffer upper and lower A-arm suspension at all four corners all add up to a thoroughly modern high-tech chassis. One that is not the result of 40 years spent trying to counteract an inherent design flaw. As for an objective measure of performance, the Z06 is as fast around a road course as a 360 Modena and a 911 Turbo, so unless you've got more than a warped perception of reality to back up your argument, I suggest you pick some other car as designated whipping boy.
Click to expand...
 
Bulldozer27 said:

There is a reason that the VW Beetle is the only other mass-produced rear-engine car available today.
Click to expand...

The new Beetle has the engine in the front:rolleyes:
 
NetViper said:
The new Beetle has the engine in the front
Click to expand...
Obviously, Bulldozer27 was referring to the original Beetle.

However (pointless off-topic trivia...), the original Beetle's production run ended recently (sometime last summer).
 
nsxtasy said:
Source reference, please?
Click to expand...

This article is only a small part of a larger article from that R&T issue. It was reprinted in R&T's Sports & GT Cars 2002 Edition which I have.

Lap times at Thunderhill

Ferrari 360 Modena - 2:07.65
'01 Corvette Z06 - 2:08.39 (20bhp and 20ft/lbs less than currently available)
Ferrari 550 Maranello - 2:09.25
Porsche 911 Turbo - 2:10.73

You can't get a much more controlled test than using the same driver on the same day to eliminate variables. Also refer to this thread regarding Nurburgring lap times.

NetViper, I stand corrected. But it only further proves my point as that makes the 911 the only mass-produced rear-engine car still available.
 
the Z06 is as fast around a road course as a 360 Modena and a 911 Turbo
Click to expand...


I don't know what tracks you are referring to, but the one in my back-yard (Road America 4.1 mile) the Z06 has nothing on a 360 in any trim. I have timed every possible street car made on this track over the past 10 years, and the 360 is king! Low 2:20's. The Z06 in Mallet or DRM trim runs mid 2:20's A GTS Viper, NA NSX and stock ZO6's run high 2:20's with the best drivers. I ran my Turbo integra street car in the advanced group with another advanced student in a 03 Z06 and he was only 5 sec faster than me @ a 2:44 to my 2:49. This ZO6 owner is on his 2nd ZO6 cause he likes it. So he is NOT a rookie ZO6 driver. Stock NSX's almost always run equal times to a ZO6 with equal drivers. I plan on bettering my Integra lap times by 10 sec with my NA NSX. Stay tuned...... cause I WILL post my 2004 time trial results vs ZO6 times.

P.S. With my Turbo Integra I could catch stock ZO6's @ Gingerman! :D oh yeah with 1/2 the BHP 1/3 displacement

Power to weight baby!
 
Isn't the mass center of the 996 engine falling in front of the rear axle anyway? It is something I have heard many times, making the car a hybrid of mid/rear engine design.


Anyway, the GT3 is still a production car, but is VERY close to a race car. I am not surprised at all that it beats the NSX-R. We are speaking of a latest tecnology design, furthermore made by Porsche and noit an average car maker. They would be VERY disappointed when an underpowered 13 years japanese design would be on pair with them.

And the NSX-R is not more a "race" car than the GT3 is ... what we can say is that the NSX-R is slightly better than the regular 996 as many test did show last year. But the GT3 is WAY ahead of the 996...

Since the GT3 enters the Pagani territory, it is not the NSX-R being "bad". It is the GT3 that is very very very good... :p
 
T Bell said:



I don't know what tracks you are referring to, but the one in my back-yard (Road America 4.1 mile) the Z06 has nothing on a 360 in any trim. I have timed every possible street car made on this track over the past 10 years, and the 360 is king! Low 2:20's. The Z06 in Mallet or DRM trim runs mid 2:20's A GTS Viper, NA NSX and stock ZO6's run high 2:20's with the best drivers. I ran my Turbo integra street car in the advanced group with another advanced student in a 03 Z06 and he was only 5 sec faster than me @ a 2:44 to my 2:49. This ZO6 owner is on his 2nd ZO6 cause he likes it. So he is NOT a rookie ZO6 driver. Stock NSX's almost always run equal times to a ZO6 with equal drivers. I plan on bettering my Integra lap times by 10 sec with my NA NSX. Stay tuned...... cause I WILL post my 2004 time trial results vs ZO6 times.

P.S. With my Turbo Integra I could catch stock ZO6's @ Gingerman! :D oh yeah with 1/2 the BHP 1/3 displacement

Power to weight baby!
Click to expand...


I believe you missed the PCA event this year...The fast Drivers were posting 2.21s in there GT-3s faster than any 360 I've ever timed which was a 2.24. ;)


Steven 91 Blk/Ivory
 
Yeah remember Steve the "wifey" wouldn't let me go!!! Either way the 360's and the GT3's run almost identical times with good drivers. faster than a DRM or Mallet ZO6 and for sure faster than a stock ZO6. I am not saying the ZO6 is a slow car. It just is a few ticks slower. BUT for the money, the ZO6 is a steal.
 
Reposting information from the above link:

Here are some revealing Nurburgring Nordschleife lap times:

Porsche 996 GT2 (455 hp DIN): 7:44
Porsche 996 Twin Turbo (420 hp DIN):7:56
2004 Z06: 7:56
Porsche 996 GT3 (360 hp DIN): 8:03
Ferrari 550: 8:07
Lanborghini Diablo SV: 8:09
Dodge Viper GTS: 8:10
Porsche 993 Twin Turbo (430 hp DIN):8:12
BMW M5: 8:28
Porsche Boxster S: 8:32
Honda (Acura) NSX: 8:38
Honda S2000: 8:39

This is a little misleading since when the 996 GT3 came out one of the biggest claims about it was its 7:56 lap time. Im not saying the Z06 is as good as a GT3, but there is something to be said about a car that can be driven every day, not stand out too much, be taken to a fairly common and close Chevy dealership, and still be able to put out lap times like that.
( Plus the car WILL depreciate much more than a Porsche GT3, so atleast I can look forward to owning one in a few years.) :)
 
In Germany I've read countless threads about why you cannot compare the times at he ring, the basic reason are:




- driver skills
- driver knowledge of the car
- willing to push the car at the limit (example: magazines testig the Murcielago) --> risks!
- weather
- temperature
- tires (M3CSL with Pilot or without)
- traffic (most times, even magazine do not get the track exclusively)
- ...



And the most important of all for who does not know the Ring:

- configuration! There can be several different variants of the track. For example sometime the finish line can be crossed and some time you have to enter the exit way before the finish line (this alone makes a difference of up to 10s!!!)
 
RacingFlix.com has the video.

http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=463&p=3

The driver, and many of you will recognize him, knows the track inside and out. Driver difference is something they just don't seem to grasp in that Z06 thread when discussing the Best Motoring time without seeing the vid for themselves. I would post the link for them to view, but I don't want to register there.

Sunny
 
Bulldozer27 said:
UNbelievable. I had assumed that your observations in this thread were merely the result of personal bias clouding objective judgement, but after this latest comment, I now understand that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Any first-year engineering student will tell you that a rear-engined layout (one wherein the engine sits behind the rear axle, i.e. the Porsche 911) is fundamentally the most unstable chassis configuration in a corner. Think of the pendulum effect; once the back end starts to come around in a corner, it's lost completely. There is no need to look "beneath the surface" on this one, and don't accuse me of using "skewed facts" because this is an inarguable law of physics. The fact that you don't know this means you pulled your comments above out of thin air (or somewhere else).

The only reason a Porsche handles well is that their engineers have spent the last 40 years engineering out the shortcomings in what is an inherently flawed design to begin with. There is a reason that the VW Beetle is the only other mass-produced rear-engine car available today.
Click to expand...
They're more impressive than just the sum of their numbers....for example, someone might falsely think a Z06 is more impressive than a GT3 becuase it has a little more power at roughly the same weight...this is an ignorant and superficial analysis* (to say the least). A lot of people just don't understand all the other fundamentals that go into a sports (or race)car being fast and impressive on a track.
The GT3 has many years of refined suspension design, re-calibration, production methods, etc...built into it from direct racing knowledge on the track...this is NOT true for vettes. (And NO, your street vettes share nothing with the ones on the american le-mans series, LOL....whereas the 911 GT3-R's DO with the street GT3)
Ahh yes, now we come to every non-Vette forum's favorite whipping boy, the Z06. Obviously my signature indicates that I own one, but that purchase was made after an objective appraisal of its performance during a rental in Vegas, without prejudice towards prestige, name, or perception. Your comments about both cars just reek of ignorance, indicating that you have driven neither, thus, yours is the "ignorant and superficial analysis."

The fact that a standard C5 Corvette is the dream car of every 50-year-old going through a mid-life crisis does not diminish the Z06's status as one of the best sports cars available, period. The only thing low-tech is the pushrod V-8 (which, I might add, has nearly as much torque as the new Porsche Carrera GT). The hydroformed chassis rails, 6-spd Tremec transAXLE, reinforced and stiffer upper and lower A-arm suspension at all four corners all add up to a thoroughly modern high-tech chassis. One that is not the result of 40 years spent trying to counteract an inherent design flaw. As for an objective measure of performance, the Z06 is as fast around a road course as a 360 Modena and a 911 Turbo, so unless you've got more than a warped perception of reality to back up your argument, I suggest you pick some other car as designated whipping boy.
Click to expand...


...sorry I didn't see this post earlier but I don't visit the forum ever hour of every day, lol.

...your "analogies" are ridiculous (comparing a VETTE to a 360 modena and 911 Turbo)(the members of this forum already saw through that immediately)

...your personal attacks are unwarranted...

...your overall tone and offensively argumentative state clearly displays an emotionally unstable persona, considering we're all enthusiasts and my comments where only to point out how superb the GT3 is. (i.e. you sound like a angry red-neck LOL)

...your attention to the OBVIOUS is clouded by your extreme bias. You OWN a vette(...which is VERY fitting to the YOUR persona....the cars hallmarks are being CRUDE & brute, just like your arguments and tone respectively) (ps: i don't own a porsche nor was I every an active PCA member) ...Rear-engine 911's have been DOMINATING ANY and EVERY form of sportcar racing since the early **70'S** Porsche is the MOST race-winning auto manufacturor in history and that success is mostly due to the rear-engine 911's. Which also goes to completely unmerit your ridiculous "first year engineering student" argument as to how poor of a configurantion the 911's is.:rolleyes:

"Bulldozer" (is that what you operate for a living, lol?)....At first I thought you had valid motives behind how bias and argumentative your ininsightful, illogical and offensively arguamentative statements/comments were. Now I see that your just an ignorant "red-neck." An internet troll that has FAR too much time on his hands...get a life. Someone who HAS to counter ANY and EVERY statement that doesn't support his own views...and do it by peltering the other person with a barrage of ridiculous analogies, unwarranted attacks, bias facts and the disregard of the obvious. It's beneath me to even respond to your ridiculous counters with offensive one's of my own (as this)...but I wanted to school you as to why myself (and a few others) will no longer respond to anything you have to write*:o


PS: Have the last word...:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Bulldozer27 said:
Lap times at Thunderhill

Ferrari 360 Modena - 2:07.65
'01 Corvette Z06 - 2:08.39
Click to expand...
So the 360 was faster than the Z06.

Here are the acceleration figures from various recent issues of the same magazine you are quoting (Road & Track):

360 Modena (8/99): 0-60 4.3, 1/4 12.8
405 hp Z06 (3/03): 0-60 4.5, 1/4 12.8
911 Turbo (11/00): 0-60 4.0, 1/4 12.4
 
Speaking of quarter mile times - I just got my Dec. issue of RACER in the mail and my guess is that there never has been a Porker or a Horse that has gone through the quarter mile as quickly as Adam Sarutawari's modded NSX on page 48.
 
Bulldozer27 said:
This article is only a small part of a larger article from that R&T issue. It was reprinted in R&T's Sports & GT Cars 2002 Edition which I have.

Lap times at Thunderhill

Ferrari 360 Modena - 2:07.65
'01 Corvette Z06 - 2:08.39 (20bhp and 20ft/lbs less than currently available)
Ferrari 550 Maranello - 2:09.25
Porsche 911 Turbo - 2:10.73
Click to expand...
For what is worth, I agree with you that the Z06 out of the box
is a great car.

Check the following URL, it talks about a great driver getting
in the 2:00's with a stock Z06 at Thunderhill, and the same driver
getting into the 1:58's with a stock GT2. Those are excellent
numbers, and backs the fact that the Z06 out of the box is a
great handling car.

http://www.unlimitedlaps.com/forums/?board=EventInfo;action=display;num=1060469032

Ken
 
2slow2speed said:
For what is worth, I agree with you that the Z06 out of the box is a great car.

Check the following URL, it talks about a great driver getting in the 2:00's with a stock Z06 at Thunderhill, and the same driver getting into the 1:58's with a stock GT2.
Click to expand...
They're all great cars.

Incidentally, it's worth distinguishing between the GT2 (with 456 hp, for MSRP $182,465 plus the usual long list of Porsche rip-off options like $2245 for certain colors of metallic paint) and the "plain jane" 996 Turbo (with 415 hp, MSRP $116,965 plus rip-off options).
 

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