Not snap ring - now what

[matteni]

I just went through the TSB for the snap ring and was relieved to find that my car does not have a broken snap ring. Looks good as new.

Still I have a problem. There is a decided "pop" when I first start the car. Then if you bog the engine in gear at low RPM's the car tends to jerk forward and back like it is fighting itself. This problem "appears" to be getting worse.

It is almost like their is "slop" in the differential - but I don't get the typical bad diff feeling on rapid acceloration (you know - when you feel the "slack" in the diff)

Anyway - might be a loose engine mount. I have looked in the service manual on 5-26 to 5-28 and can't tell:

If this is my problem?

Where the bolts are that might make this better?

What has to be removed to get to these bolts?

Any help appreciated...

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[matteni]

OK - found the rear under, driver's side top (under the airbox - remove), and passenger side top (under a small bracket) and tightened these down. Praying it's not the under center but murphy's law will tell.

BTW the car is on jack stands and I am going to replace the anti freeze then put it down and see if this is it.

Any words of advice or encouragement appreciated - otherwise - stay tuned!

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by matteni:
...Then if you bog the engine in gear at low RPM's the car tends to jerk forward and back like it is fighting itself.

The doc would say "Don't do that."

If not for the pop at startup I would think it sounds like a CV joint, but hopefully you've already found and fixed the problem.

 

[matteni]

Update - went to the hardware store to find some good transmission fluid suitable for the NSX. Nothing.

Came home and checked the level - seemed fine even though I lost a couple of tablespoons when I opened the snap ring inspection cover. Also seemed relitively clean. Good!

Tightened 3 of the 4 engine mounts. The 4th will probably be it - knowing my luck. If anyone is reading this in the future - the engine mounts have black rubber donuts on each side and have to have the bolt on each side tightened to fix it. I have high hopes that this is it. The forth is a REAL pain to get to and get tight. I know because I have "dealt" with it 2x on 2 seperate header installs. Sucks if it's that one!

Also - heaven help us on the transmission fluid fill. I can't believe Honda shipped it this way. There is no level indicator except to jack the car up, remove the bolt and stick your finger inside to see if you need any extra. Then you have to figure out a way to get a long funnel tube in there (it is a VERTICAL bolt so you pour at a 90 degree angle or roll the car on one side!)

Per the service manual you just keep pooring till it overflows onto the ground. Nice design this is!

Oh well - at least they built the transmission and clutch so bulletproof that none of us will ever have to worry about it anyway.

;-)

 

[matteni]

Thanks Steve - good to know. The pop on start up may just be a loose exhaust nut or something else so I will keep your "idea" in mind if the engine nuts don't do the trick.

Also if anyone knows how to determine if the rubber donuts are "bad" let me know. They don't appear to have any damage - but I didn't remove them either.

 

[matteni]

Who hoo!!!

I finally tightened ALL 4 of the main engine mounts. The last one that I happened to touch last was only finger tight. Tightened a bunch of other "big" bolts up that support the transmission too.

Now the good news...

My problems were fixed! The car feels OH SO MUCH BETTER! The car felt sloppy before on acceloration. Now tight as can be and not a single problem with the jerking I was feeling under load.

AND BEST OF ALL - I researched and fixed it myself including the inspection of the snap ring and checking of the transmission fluid.

Feelin pretty good about my bad self!

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[matt_shover]

Nick, what did you end up using for transmission fluid?

I'm absolutely stuck on Honda MTF -- great stuff.

-Matt

 

[matteni]

Hi Matt,

I just ordered a gallon of Redline MTL. My fluid was changed with Honda fluid just last summer and the level was fine so I didn't need to do anything.

I also ordered 4 bottles of the Mark Basch recommended Redline Wetter for the coolant system. Anything Mark recommends is OK in my book. If he told me to pour sand in the intake I would do it!

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Nick,

Glad it worked out. Also just for future reference, there is not a manual trans made, that I know of, that is not this way. They all have the "overflow" method of filling. It's not a "Honda" thing.

I have this big hypodermic looking pump, that you put to hose in the fill hole and "push" the fluid in. It was only a few bucks at Sears and has worked for years.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[matteni]

Thanks for the tip on the pump! Having the right tools for the job makes it all so easy.

 

[NSXTech]

Originally posted by Larry Bastanza:
Nick,

Glad it worked out. Also just for future reference, there is not a manual trans made, that I know of, that is not this way. They all have the "overflow" method of filling. It's not a "Honda" thing.

I have this big hypodermic looking pump, that you put to hose in the fill hole and "push" the fluid in. It was only a few bucks at Sears and has worked for years.

HTH,
LarryB

Larry is right about the pump (of course!)
Another way to do it without the mess associated with the pump, is to remove the speedo sensor on top of the tranny (one 8 mm bolt and pull straight up) and you can use a funnel with a 24 inch piece of 5/8 heater hose (or whatever size hose fits your funnel opening) to fill from the top.
You don't raise the car this way, and you can add precisely 2.7 qts very quickly and neatly. Its how I do it when I'm on the road. (at home, I use a pump with car over my head)

Cheers,
Mark

 

[matteni]

Great tip Mark!

Since it is my post - I guess it is OK to hijack it...

I also did the anti freeze. I think out of 2 gallons - I collected about 5 tablespoons in the buckets I had poorly positioned. Also because I was on a steep incline I couldn't get anything under the radiator.

Should I have lowered the car after the drain or put it in jack stands?

This took me the better part of 2 hours to do and was a MAJOR pain in the rear and a huge mess.

Tip: Do not wash your car before hand or you will be doing it all over again! The coolent got everywhere!

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Nick,

I can repeat something that the master (Mark B.) taught me, when I did this. When you refill, get the nose LOWER then the rear. This aids in the bleeding process. Just leave the rear stands in place and lower the front. I used some 2x4's, under the front tires, so the front lip would not scrape as I lowered the nose.

When I did my 90K service I was able to completely bleed the system in 20 minutes. The engine temp was rock solid for the test drive, then when I got back and let it cool down I added a little less then a quart to the coolant tank to top it up.

Very little mess to refill.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[matteni]

Hi Larry,

I did that. You should have seen the angle my car was at! You would have laughed. The stuff from the bottom plug just "shot" out towards the battery, all over the place, and down the driveway. The 2 engine drains were worse! They splattered into my face, eyes, etc and all over the car.

Then during fill up the car (still at an angle) looked like wild-e-coyete's row boat after he shoots the shotgun into the bottom. The 4 bleed locations (especialy the heater one) drain almost faster then you can poor the stuff in. The manual says to fill up the tank and then start closing the 4 in order. I couldn't get the tank to fill up and realized it was because the 4 bleed locations were bleeding faster then I could poor. I pray my neighbors don't turn me in to the EPA as I would be on their 10 most wanted list and I don't want that again.

Just wondering how you pro's do it without making a mess.

On a side note - now that I know I can check my snap ring whenever I want and it is easy - I was going to do it every oil change. Is there any reason not to? Also - NEW SNAP RING QUESTION. Can you tell when the snap ring is "going to break but has not"?

Thanks Larry / Mark / anyone else...

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by matteni:
Just wondering how you pro's do it without making a mess.

I take it to my dealer to do. Thanks for reminding me why.

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Originally posted by matteni:
On a side note - now that I know I can check my snap ring whenever I want and it is easy - I was going to do it every oil change. Is there any reason not to? Also - NEW SNAP RING QUESTION. Can you tell when the snap ring is "going to break but has not"?

No.

Read the write up Mark Bash did on this, and try to understand the technical aspect of it.
I had me snapring broken a couple of weeks ago, and i could tell a weird sound before it completely went, and even drove on the track with it. I suppose i was very lucky, coz i drove 500 miles to the track, and 500 miles back from the track with it.
Explaining the sound is very difficult, and it's also pretty dificult to hear as well.

Just hope for the snapringfailure, as i did, so you can throw in the shortgears

Mich

 

[matteni]

Thanks Mich,

I did read the write up and the metal ring I looked at looked like it would deform to some extent in some percentage of cases and not disintegrate.

I had a fair number of metallurgy and deformable bodies classes in college and from my "estimation" you should see some signs of wear as the ring moves within the groove.

If nothing else - several people - like you - have reported that it was difficult to tell. Since I am very religious about changing the oil every 2-3 months at least I know I might catch it before and definitely after a failure.

Again my car has 45k miles (est. 1500 on the track) and I remain hopeful that mine was cut closer to "spec". I have also been fortunate to this point in that my clutch still operates with the same smooth engagement as when I bought it nearly 5 years ago with 20k miles on it.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Well Nick,

I have exhausted all my efforts to try to figure out a way to "early detect" this. I made a test jig, tested many transmissions, but when I finally REALLY understood the problem with the case half, I just do not see any way of detecting it, short of the visual inspection you mention.

Although, I still have no confidence, through visual inspection, you could "see" it before it fails. My snapring has a little discoloration around where it contacts the case. I presume the snap ring may move around, about 10-20 degrees, under certain load changes, but at this point mine is working fine, and only when I have these discssions do I even think about it anymore.

I plan on doing as Mark B. recommends: If I need a clutch and the snapring has not broken, I will change the case. If the snapring goes, I will replace the clutch and the case. Same outcome, different timeline. I have absolutely no prediction

LarryB

 

[matteni]

OK - thanks Larry - final question I promise.

I too am into saving money. Despite wanting a beefier clutch, short gears, and the type R differential I don't want to get there before my time (like heaven - want to get there but not too quickly!)

So 2 questions are:

1) Can the snap ring be replaced through the "check hole"?

2) If so - it looks like an inexpensive part, any benefit in replacing it? As a undergraduate material engineer I would think that if you have deformation and/or microscopic cracking you would benefit from a new one. In other words - if your old one made it X miles then your new one made the exact same way in the same transmission may also make it X miles - or - your new one may be close to failure but you can not visibly tell.

Or is the failure known to be based on an "event" that would equally destroy any new or old snap ring?

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by matteni:
1) Can the snap ring be replaced through the "check hole"?

2) If so - it looks like an inexpensive part, any benefit in replacing it?

You won't benefit from replacing the snap ring. In order to prevent the "snap ring failure", you must replace the bottom half of the transmission case along with the snap ring itself.

Unfortunately, there was a shop that was telling its customers that it could prevent the snap ring failure by replacing the snap ring alone, without the case. That is NOT true. As noted by Mark in his lengthy write-up here, "Bottom line, a transmission that gets a new snap ring, installed in an old case, is the exact same tranny it was before, and just as likely to fail."

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 03 September 2002).]

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Nick,

Nice thought, but it is a complete tear down of the trans. Heck, I would put one in once a year if I could!!

LarryB

 

[Jimbo]

In my opinion...

1. The snap ring/case can not be reliably inspected through the check hole. Obviously, if it's already failed, you might see something however.

2. The snap ring can not be replaced through the check hole. The transmission needs to be disassembled.

3. There is no reliable data that suggests that replacing the snap ring will cure the problem. The problem may reside solely with the improperly machined snap ring groove. Perhaps added play causes the ring to endure shock loading it wasn't designed to handle?

4. There is no reasonable way to measure the groove to see if it's in spec or not.

Conclusion: It's pretty much how Larry and Mark have explained it. If you need to get in there and do something else, take the time to get a new case and fix it. It doesn't seem reasonable to tear the tranny apart to install a new snap ring considering that the risk is high that the defect is still there.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

1) Can the snap ring be replaced through the "check hole"?

No, though if youre butcher, you can do anything with enough force [phun intended]

2) If so - it looks like an inexpensive part, any benefit in replacing it? As a undergraduate material engineer I would think that if you have deformation and/or microscopic cracking you would benefit from a new one. In other words - if your old one made it X miles then your new one made the exact same way in the same transmission may also make it X miles - or - your new one may be close to failure but you can not visibly tell.

If the snapring has failed, i don't even think you can get a new one in, because the tranny housing is quiet damaged from the failure. Also, i would not put the tranny back together, unless i have had every little bit cleaned inside the gearbox. I took the whole thing apart, untill the last screw, just to make sure there where no bit's of metal left.
Putting a new snapring in is asking for trouble. You really don't want that differential to go bad. I also think that the new one won't last as long as the first one, just because the trannyhousing is not holding the snapring very well in place anymore, i.e., the rocking forward and backward of the shaft in the first place, has already made the groove where the snapring is in not useable any longer. Hard to see, but it is damaged. I had to hammer my bits out.

 

[matteni]

I wasn't going against the current thinking and have read the writeups several times - but for my own piece of mind I would do what Larry would also do and replace it once a year if I could - but I can't - so I wont.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids