Nitrous Done Right

[baynsac]

Car- 1991 NSX auto 45K miles with Z-tek Headers/exhaust, AIS scoop with Uni filter, SOS Big bore throttle body, Comptech test pipes, Zanardi front and rear sway bars, NSX-R Chassis bars.


I think I finally almost got this nitrous install done. I thought others might be interested. It all started with BadCarma and his knowledge. I started with a direct port nitrous and wanted to have a shop with lot of nsx experience to do my install so I drove to Science of Speed in Arizona. They were having trouble installing it direct port so I ended up getting a wet kit installed there. NX wet kit with remote bottle opener, auto bottle heater, Wide open throttle (WOT) switch.
Than finished the install at a local performance shop and added a purge kit, a down pipe(necessary for the track), Fuel pressure safety switch, Guages Air/Fuel and nitrous pressure. and now currently installing a NX/FJO racing Progressive controller that controlls how much I spray at every RPM, has a first gear lock out, Rpm window switch, lot of other features but not as many as The maximizer 2 I should of got where you can controll in each gear what rpms and how much you spray but its real expensive.

First before the Nitrous install I went to Rob in Valancia to make car ready for nitrous use. These steps are crucial before you start spraying.

1. Compression test and leak down test. This is the deal maker or breaker.

2. Change spark NGK BKR7E gaped at 0.35 (one step colder, or 2 if you are pushing more than 100 hp shot, in that case it will be NGK BKR7E-11's

3. Ignition Coil check for spark and intensity- Validate if ignition is putting out enough spark ( OEM LEVEL) make sure check each coil pack is in spec.

4. Replace fuel filter.

5. Install Oem injectors that have been cleaned to excelent flow conditions by RC' Eng. Or if you can afford to pay a little more get them RC' enginering to clean and have them make it peak hold 15% more flow.

6. Install new Fuel pump or you can get the High Flow Walbaro 255lph Fuel pump. I got the Walbaro High flow fuel pump

7. Fuel pressure regulator. Validate pump is working at proper flow level.
Raise the OEM fuel pressure regulator to full time 12v.

8. Dyno to see how the car running. Make sure A/F looks good. ( I did this with a 45 shot and it looked good )
Dyno Results:
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=27960
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=27959

Here is a Dyno Result with just a small 45 hp shot:
http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chartoi1.jpg
Look at the Torque and Horsepower numbers big difference even with a small shot. No other way than NITROUS to make such TQ numbers so quickly.



Now we are installing FJO racing Progressive controller.
http://www.fjoracing.com/products/2stageminicontroller/

And also using my dyno results to determine how much hp nitrous spray to add at what RPM. So I will spray 25-50% hp more at each 500 rpm than the current hp its making now in each RPM. So when the nitrous is activated it will run like a super/turbo charger and be safe as it can be. Might not be able to use it all day everyday but ALWAYS when I need it.
This is a great setup it will only run when the fuel pressure/oil pressure is optimum, only at Wide open throttle, Only at the set RPM 3000-7000 rpms, not hard on the drive train or engine as there is no hard nitrous hit, it progressively increases hp/tq as the rpms/gears increase.

Next thing is go to Rob and get my timing belt/water pump and than ProSpeed and have Brain do my ECU tune up on live dyno and see if I can make the car run even better on and off the nitrous. Than to the track for some quarter mile times on and off nitrous. I haven't used the nitrous yet just on the dyno. I am going to use it when its all done sometime this week. I just thought I would share as I would love to see more nsx's using nitrous. I would love to see a direct port nitrous NSX.

 

[prestonmay]

whats your planned Jet Size 75?

 

[nsxtcy85]

Why did SOS have a hard time installing a Direct port system? Its not rocket science..... Placement problems?

 

[baynsac]

Why did SOS have a hard time installing a Direct port system? Its not rocket science..... Placement problems?

Yeah, direct port is pretty simple. They were in a hurry and he had to fly out or something the same day or some excuse I don't fully remember.
But I still have a Cold Fusion Nitrous direct port kit for the NSX. (pm me if anyone is interested in it, its for sale brand new $250 cheaper than I paid for it) You can send your manifold to CFN and for about $200 they will make it direct port for you by driling it on top of each cylinder so no need to go to any speciality shop. This is a better option as they know thier product and the best way to use them. Also once you recieve it back all you have to do is hook up rest of your nitrous kit. And now imagine controlling this with MAXIMIZER 2. Check out the link below and all the options the maximizer has to controll every thing your nitrous kit does. This is off the hook I am going to do this with my next 5/6 speed nsx.

Direct port/NX maximizer 2 is a winning combination. Here are the links to them:

CFN Direct Port Kit: http://www.coldfusionnitrous.com/efidirectportkits.aspx?CategoryID=20

MAXIMIZER 2 - http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Pages/Maximizer2.htm

 

[baynsac]

whats your planned Jet Size 75?

I just threw in the 100 hp jet size but I will only use no more than 80-90 hp or so. What my plan is say if I am making 100 hp at a given rpm I will use my progressive controller to add 30-50% hp/tq via nitrous.
Here is my plan if it all goes as planned this week.


OFF NITROUS ON NITROUS
100hp @(at) 3000 RPM add 30% hp/tq = 130 hp
130 hp @ 4000 RPM add 40% hp/tq = 182 hp
160 hp @ 5000 RPM add 50% hp/tq = 240 hp
210 hp @ 6000 RPM add 40 % hp/tq = 294 hp
240 hp @ 7000 RPM add 40% hp/tq = 336 hp





Here is where I am getting the OFF nitrous number:
Dyno Results:
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/sh...hp?photo=27960
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/sh...hp?photo=27959

 

[baynsac]

Here is how the nitrous without the progressive contoller dynoed. Its a small 45 shot used to test out the system and Air/Fuel ratios. Look how much Torque it makes.
http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chartoi1.jpg

 

[baynsac]

HISTROY - For other who might just be looking into Nitrous for the first time or would like a better overall intro to it. Buy the Book by JOE PETTIT how nitrous works best book ever on the subject and very simple to read and understand. (THANKS DAVE badcarma for the recomendation and all your help)


How does nitrous oxide help an engine perform better?


This Question of the Day talks about how sodium chlorate acts as a way to store oxygen. You release the oxygen in sodium chlorate by heating it. It turns out that nitrous oxide (N20) works exactly the same way. When you heat nitrous oxide to about 570 degrees F (~300 C), it splits into oxygen and nitrogen. So the injection of nitrous oxide into an engine means that more oxygen is available during combustion. Because you have more oxygen, you can also inject more fuel, allowing the same engine to produce more power. Nitrous oxide is one of the simplest ways to provide a significant horsepower boost to any gasoline engine.

Nitrous oxide has another effect that improves performance even more. When it vaporizes, nitrous oxide provides a significant cooling effect on the intake air. When you reduce the intake air temperature, you increase the air's density, and this provides even more oxygen inside the cylinder.

The only problem with nitrous oxide is that it is fairly bulky, and the engine needs a lot of it. Like any gas, it takes up a fair amount of space even when compressed into a liquid. A 5-liter engine running at 4,000 rotations per minute (rpm) consumes about 10,000 liters of air every minute (compared to about 0.2 liters of gasoline), so it would take a tremendous amount of nitrous oxide to run a car continuously. Therefore, a car normally carries only a few minutes of nitrous oxide, and the driver uses it very selectively by pushing a button.

Overview
When nitrous oxide decomposes, a single mole will release 1/2 mole of oxygen gas, allowing an oxygen saturation of 33% to be reached. Air, which contains only 21% oxygen, permits a maximum saturation of only 21%. This oxygen combines with hydrocarbons such as gasoline, alcohol, and diesel fuel to produce carbon dioxide and water vapor, which expand and exert pressure on pistons.

Nitrous oxide is stored as a liquid in tanks, but because of its low boiling point it vaporizes easily when released to atmosphere. When injected into an inlet manifold this characteristic causes a reduction in air/fuel charge temperature with an associated increase in density, thereby increasing the cylinder's volumetric efficiency.

When N2O breaks down in the engines combustion phase, the oxygen atoms are freed from their bond to the nitrogen atoms in an exothermic reaction, contributing to the overall power increase.

Nitrous systems can increase power by as little as 0.5 hp or as much as 3,000 hp, depending on the engine type and nitrous system type. All systems are based on a single power kits but these kits can be used in multiples (called 2, 3 or even 4 stage); the most advanced systems are controlled by an electronic progressive delivery unit that allows a single kit to perform better than multiple kits can. Most Pro Mod cars and some Pro Street cars use three stages for additional power, but more and more are switching to pulsed progressive technology.

Fans can easily identify nitrous-equipped cars at the track by the fact that most will "purge" the delivery system prior to reaching the starting line. A separate electrically operated valve is used to release air and gaseous nitrous oxide trapped in the delivery system. This brings liquid nitrous oxide all the way up through the plumbing from the storage tank to the solenoid valve or valves that will release it into the engine's intake tract. When the purge system is activated, one or more plumes of nitrous oxide will be visible for a moment as the liquid flashes to vapor as it is released. The purpose of a nitrous purge is to ensure that the correct amount of nitrous oxide is delivered the moment the system is activated—air or gaseous nitrous oxide in the line will cause the car to "bog" for an instant until liquid nitrous oxide reaches the intake.


Types of nitrous systems
There are two main categories of nitrous systems: dry & wet. A nitrous system is primarily concerned with introducing fuel and nitrous into the engine's cylinders, and combining them for more efficient combustion. There are 4 main sub types of wet system: single point, direct port, plate, and plenum bar all of which are just slightly different methods of discharging nitrous into the plenums of the intake manifold.


Dry
In a dry nitrous system, extra fuel required is introduced through the fuel injectors, keeping the manifold dry of nitrous. This property is what gives the dry system its name. Fuel flow can be increased either by increasing the pressure in the fuel injection system, or by modifying the vehicle's computer to increase the time the fuel injectors remain open during the engine cycle. This is typically done by spraying nitrous past the mass airflow sensor (MAF), which then sends a signal to the vehicle's computer telling it that it sees colder denser air, and that more fuel is needed. This is typically not an exact method of adding fuel. Once additional fuel has been introduced, it can burn with the extra oxygen provided by the nitrous, providing additional power.

Dry nitrous systems rely on a single type nozzle that only sprays nitrous through it, not nitrous and fuel. These nitrous nozzles generally spray in a 90 degree pattern.

Wet single-point
A wet single-point nitrous system introduces the fuel and nitrous together, causing the upper intake to become wet with fuel. In carbureted applications, this is typically accomplished with a spraybar plate mounted between the carburetor base and the intake manifold, while cars fitted with electronic fuel injection often use a plate mounted between the manifold and the base of the throttle body, or a single nozzle mounted in the intake tract. However, most makes of nitrous systems combined with unsuitable intake designs, often result in distribution problems and/or intake backfires. Dry-flow intakes are designed to contain only air, which will travel through smaller pipes and tighter turns with less pressure, whereas wet-flow intakes are designed to contain a mixture of fuel and air. Wet nitrous systems tend to produce more power than dry systems, but in some cases can be more expensive and difficult to install.

A wet nozzle differs in the way that it takes in both nitrous and fuel which are metered by jets to create a perfect or proper air-fuel ratio (AFR).

Newer wet nitrous kits on domestic cars have become increasingly easy to install by pulling fuel via the schrader valve on the fuel rail which is normally designated as a fuel test port. It makes plumbing and using a wet nitrous kit much more simple.


Wet direct port
A wet direct port nitrous system introduces nitrous and fuel directly into each intake port on the engine. These systems are also known as direct port nitrous systems. Normally, these systems combine nitrous and fuel through several nozzles similar in design to a wet single-point nozzle, which mixes and meters the nitrous and fuel delivered to each cylinder individually, allowing each cylinder's nitrous/fuel ratio to be adjusted without affecting the other cylinders. Note that there are still several ways to introduce nitrous through a direct port system. There are several different types of nozzles and placements ranging from fogger nozzles that requires one to drill and tap the manifold, to specialty direct port E.F.I. nozzles that fit into the fuel injector ports along with the fuel injectors.

A multi-point system is the most powerful type of nitrous system, due to the placement of the nozzle in each runner, as well as the ability to use more and higher capacity solenoid valves. Wet multi-point kits can go as high as 3,000 horsepower (2,400 kW) with only one stage, but most produce less than half that amount with two, three or even four stages.[citation needed] These systems are also the most complex and expensive systems, requiring significant modification to the engine, including adding distribution blocks and solenoid assemblies, as well as drilling, tapping and constructing plumbing for each cylinder runner. These systems are most often used on racing vehicles specially built to take the strain of such high power levels. Many high-horsepower race applications will use more than one nozzle per cylinder, plumbed in stages to allow greater control of how much power is delivered with each stage. A two-stage system will actually allow three different levels of additional horsepower; for example, a small first stage can be used in first gear to prevent excessive wheelspin, then turned off in favor of a larger second stage once the car is moving. In top gear, both stages can be activated at the same time for maximum horsepower. A more recent improvement on the staged concept from WON is the progressive delivery system, which allows a simpler single stage system to act even better than multiple stages, delivering a smoothly progressive increase in power which is adjustable to suit the user requirements.

Reliability concerns:
As all modifications to increase power, the use of nitrous oxide carries with it concerns about the reliability and longevity of an engine. Due to the greatly increased cylinder pressures, the engine as a whole is placed under greater stress, especially the parts involved with the combustion chamber. An engine with components not able to cope with the increased stress imposed by the use of nitrous systems can experience major engine damage, such as cracked or destroyed pistons, connecting rods, or crankshafts.

Even if the engine is up to the task, severe damage can occur if a problem occurs in the fuel system; an engine running with nitrous oxide depends heavily on the proper air to fuel ratio to prevent detonation from occurring. For example, if the engine's fuel supply was to be reduced, this would cause the engine to run lean by whatever degree the fuel delivery was reduced by which can lead to engine knock or detonation. Depending on the engine, this may only need to occur for a matter of seconds before major damage occurs.

Despite these concerns, most modern OEM engines can reliably handle a nitrous power increase in the region of 50%, especially when that power is delivered using progressive control

 

[Hasdrubal]

I've always thought the problem with nitrous was that it was too accessible- people who don't feel like building low compression motors or prepping in any way can just bolt on nitrous, and immediately put down good numbers. Then they inevitably want more, and blow their motor when they go past the limits you laid out.

In this particular case, aren't you worried about the auto transmission holding up to it?

Nick

 

[Rtype1206]

What times are you currently pulling at the tracks???

I just threw in the 100 hp jet size but I will only use no more than 80-90 hp or so. What my plan is say if I am making 100 hp at a given rpm I will use my progressive controller to add 30-50% hp/tq via nitrous.
Here is my plan if it all goes as planned this week.


OFF NITROUS ON NITROUS
100hp @(at) 3000 RPM add 30% hp/tq = 130 hp
130 hp @ 4000 RPM add 40% hp/tq = 182 hp
160 hp @ 5000 RPM add 50% hp/tq = 240 hp
210 hp @ 6000 RPM add 40 % hp/tq = 294 hp
240 hp @ 7000 RPM add 40% hp/tq = 336 hp





Here is where I am getting the OFF nitrous number:
Dyno Results:
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/sh...hp?photo=27960
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/sh...hp?photo=27959

 

[baynsac]

What times are you currently pulling at the tracks???

Don't know yet haven't got my track tires readys yet ( this month) and still need to see Rob for my timing belt /water pump,coolant hoses,valve adj, seals and than I will use the nitrous and get some track times. Might get the ECU tuned also by Brian right after and than home and go to some track events. I am real curious what times I will pull without the nitrous and also with.
To the others running nitrous what shot are you running and what time did you guys get in a 1/4 miles?

 

[baynsac]

I've always thought the problem with nitrous was that it was too accessible- people who don't feel like building low compression motors or prepping in any way can just bolt on nitrous, and immediately put down good numbers. Then they inevitably want more, and blow their motor when they go past the limits you laid out.

In this particular case, aren't you worried about the auto transmission holding up to it?

Nick

The nsx auto tranny isnt the strongest from what I keep hearing from people who don't have auto nsx. But I guess I will find out, worse comes to worse it will have a 6 speed in the future or a built auto tranny.
I m not worried as I am not even spraying any more than 80 hp and not doing it without a progressive controller. Progressive controller I have has a drag feature so it smooths out your hit. This is a great setup it will only run when the fuel pressure/oil pressure is optimum, only at Wide open throttle, Only at the set RPM 3000-7000 rpms, not hard on the drive train or engine as there is no hard nitrous hit, it progressively increases hp/tq as the rpms/gears increase. So its easy on your tranny as well. Also sometime this year I will add a torque converter and tranny cooler.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

But I guess I will find out, worse comes to worse it will have a 6 speed in the future

I wonder what all is involved with going from auto to manual?

 

[nsxlover]

When I ran a 150 shot before I got the turbo kit, it ran a 10.99

 

[prestonmay]

I wonder what all is involved with going from auto to manual?

allot of money and time.... Estimate for me was 7500.... Cheaper to rebuild and beef up tranny, tq convertor, oil tranny and change the camshafts.... I did the TQ Conv and the car drives totally different---In a good way...

 

[prestonmay]

When I ran a 150 shot before I got the turbo kit, it ran a 10.99

Stock Eng???

 

[nsxlover]

Stock Eng???

yes, it was stock back then, but I wouldn't recommend going that high on a stock setup. When I had the engine built, the main bearings were really worn. I would recommend up to 100 on stock block.

 

[stuntman]

But Nitrous Done Wrong is so much more exciting!

 

[baynsac]

But Nitrous Done Wrong is so much more exciting!

Brakes rotors done wrong is even more exciting:biggrin: :wink:

 

[TitaniumVtec]

On a bone stock 94 with a 70 shot I ran 12.99 with a very soft launch. 60' time was close to 2.3 or 2.4 seconds. The car had a lot more in it but I was not going to beat on it for a .5 second gain. That was the only time I ever took the car to the track before I sold it. This car put 300 to the wheels

With a 70 shot, headers and exhaust, my 93 put down 320 to the wheels. This is more than enough to pull on a 400+ EVO VIII from a 50 mph roll. On a closed course with professional drivers of course. No animals were harmed during this event.

NOS is great until the bottle runs out!

 

[stuntman]

Brakes rotors done wrong is even more exciting:biggrin: :wink:

You don't know, you don't know...:wink: (agreed)

 

[BadCarma]

yay, wow that torque curve looked like it would stomp the crap out of a SC, could you teach me some of this stuff bro?

All joking aside and remeber I am still having trouble typing not that I was ever good at it BUT YOU MAKE ME PROUD MY MAN. THE ZEAL OF THE FRESHLY CONVERTED IS NOT TO BE TRIVALED WITH. WELL DONE! A TRUE BELIEVER.
I am so pleased you are helping keep the n20 a valid alternative that is PROVEN safe with correct prep work alive.I am so glad you did ALL of it and dint cut corners. you seem very pleased. it really is a rush when its done right and kicks like a mule huh yay.

You learned alot since we last had a pow wow, but WTF you need to have a direct port setup and then check the size of your boner:biggrin: . a/f tuned for each cylinder. I cant believe they coudnt do it.
call me if you get a chance,I want to talk to you bout a minor tweak to your system. pm me if you dont have the number anymore.
BTW did I just miss it or do you not have bottle warmers? I dont care how hot it is where you live you need the warmers, they are not a luxury they are critical. they keep your bottle pressure stable. if you have them no worrys other then set them at 1050 psi bottle pressure oh yes NOT 900-950 1050 is where you need to be bottle psi wise for nose bleeds from pulln g's

congrats yay,and pm or call me man. I know i have been heavy MIA but I will make time to talk too you.damn I am happy for a change. I have 3 cars in serious need of my time and I just cant seem to work more then 15 minutes and my heart goes crazy. got one of medtronics defective pacemakers so MY ecu reads wrong A/F AND ADDS WAY TO MUCH JUICE! and I dont mean n20.

later guys keep up the good work and YAYNSX thanks for posting the prep data I compiled, what makes me so darn happy is you understand it! trust me its a compliment and installing n20 may not be rocket science but it does need to be tuned in the sense the car needs to be tuned to handle the n20 properly. anyone can install a n20 kit well not mine but most of them but it does not mean you will see results like this and still sleep at night. yay is a fine example of someone who did not really know alot about how it all worked together. so he did the right thing and preped his car and seems he studied his ass off as well to ramp up on what he needs to know to keep his install tight. remember fella's anyone can take there car to a shop but yay did his homework and will have the knowledge to maintain his system and not bring it to the shop for mickey mouse stuff. knowledge is indeed power.....and a hella lot of torque! man I cant wait til you bump it up.

best regards David
ps btw anyone seen a guy using this handle here: badka2ma , PLEASE EDUCATE HIM IN MY ABSENCE,I WAS TOLD HE IS SPEWING CRAP AND SOME THINK HE IS ME AND IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF TO NO END.

oh yes and I still need to sell the n20 kit I built right before I got sick. pm me james?

 

[LJSB]

Good to see you back!

 

[BadCarma]

Good to see you back!

dude, your car is looking tight from your avatar but you need to 86 your stock steering wheel :biggrin: GLAD TO BE BACK

 

[nsxtcy85]

Maybe I missed it but what are you using to control your timing?

 

[baynsac]

yay, wow that torque curve looked like it would stomp the crap out of a SC, could you teach me some of this stuff bro?

All joking aside and remeber I am still having trouble typing not that I was ever good at it BUT YOU MAKE ME PROUD MY MAN. THE ZEAL OF THE FRESHLY CONVERTED IS NOT TO BE TRIVALED WITH. WELL DONE! A TRUE BELIEVER.
I am so pleased you are helping keep the n20 a valid alternative that is PROVEN safe with correct prep work alive.I am so glad you did ALL of it and dint cut corners. you seem very pleased. it really is a rush when its done right and kicks like a mule huh yay.

You learned alot since we last had a pow wow, but WTF you need to have a direct port setup and then check the size of your boner:biggrin: . a/f tuned for each cylinder. I cant believe they coudnt do it.
call me if you get a chance,I want to talk to you bout a minor tweak to your system. pm me if you dont have the number anymore.
BTW did I just miss it or do you not have bottle warmers? I dont care how hot it is where you live you need the warmers, they are not a luxury they are critical. they keep your bottle pressure stable. if you have them no worrys other then set them at 1050 psi bottle pressure oh yes NOT 900-950 1050 is where you need to be bottle psi wise for nose bleeds from pulln g's

congrats yay,and pm or call me man. I know i have been heavy MIA but I will make time to talk too you.damn I am happy for a change. I have 3 cars in serious need of my time and I just cant seem to work more then 15 minutes and my heart goes crazy. got one of medtronics defective pacemakers so MY ecu reads wrong A/F AND ADDS WAY TO MUCH JUICE! and I dont mean n20.

later guys keep up the good work and YAYNSX thanks for posting the prep data I compiled, what makes me so darn happy is you understand it! trust me its a compliment and installing n20 may not be rocket science but it does need to be tuned in the sense the car needs to be tuned to handle the n20 properly. anyone can install a n20 kit well not mine but most of them but it does not mean you will see results like this and still sleep at night. yay is a fine example of someone who did not really know alot about how it all worked together. so he did the right thing and preped his car and seems he studied his ass off as well to ramp up on what he needs to know to keep his install tight. remember fella's anyone can take there car to a shop but yay did his homework and will have the knowledge to maintain his system and not bring it to the shop for mickey mouse stuff. knowledge is indeed power.....and a hella lot of torque! man I cant wait til you bump it up.

best regards David
ps btw anyone seen a guy using this handle here: badka2ma , PLEASE EDUCATE HIM IN MY ABSENCE,I WAS TOLD HE IS SPEWING CRAP AND SOME THINK HE IS ME AND IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF TO NO END.

oh yes and I still need to sell the n20 kit I built right before I got sick. pm me james?

Hey Dave,
I need your number I lost with my last cell phone otherwise I would have called allready. I wanted to thank you and ask more questions and lot more I can learn from your endless knowledge of nitrous. I hope others also get and understand how nitrous works and all its wonderfull benefits. Thanks a million for all the time you spent making me understand. I will be a nitrous guy for rest of my life becasue of you and never will forget to help others like you did for me. Thats why I started this thread so I can share what I learned and learn more together with others experiences.
Also I m glad to hear you are feeling better me and my families prayers are with you.

Now to the nitrous. I have the bottle heater installed allready but I trying to figure out if I should just use the RPM window switch or use my FJO progressive contoller. I will figure it out after I talk to you a little more.