New NSX-S suspension VS Zanardi

[MJK]

I am feeling like the dampers in my 94 are starting to go, and am toying with the idea of replacing my shocks/springs with something a little more aggressive. Me being in TN, I don't have the benefit of lots of other NSXs around. Has anybody been able to compare the older VS newer NSX-S suspensions ?

Here are my desires (in no particular order):
- something that would be acceptable on the track without totally compromising streetabilty.
- mild drop in ride height
- NON-adjustable
-preferably preassumbled for easier DIY.

TIA for any seat of the pants wisdom you can share!

Mark

 

[Hrant]

Mark, I have followed docjohn's (John - bumble bee NSX) changes and he would be a good resource to check.

Since you have a coupe, you may have more flexibility with some aggressive street/track set up than those with a T.

I have had the Bilstein and OEM springs for some 2 years now and I reached a point now with tracking the car for some time where I would like a little stiffer though still streetable suspension for my 98-T. But I do realize the two do not go together ..........

One level up is Eibach. One more than the Eibach are DaliRacing's springs which are 30% stiffer when compressed compared to the Eibach; on street they are the same. Both are progressive.

I am seriously thinking of adding the Zanardi springs instead of the Eibach or Dali springs because of height issues as well as the Zanardi is linear and not progressive. This combo "may" be similar to the Zanardi set up but I am not sure. The actual work to install is not an issue in such situations.

Docjohn has used Koni/Zanardi which I believe is a better match but less streetabe than the above options. He has now tranisitioned to Type R.

Bilstein's limits in terms of compressing/rebounding are right where the Zanardi springs starts. So there is a good chance that this combo would be pushing it, and that is why I have asked if anyone has tried Bilstein/Zanardi combo in anoother post.

Others have tried the Tein - it is adjustable, and while they like it on the track given the $ value, they do eventually complain about its streetability if your NSX is alsa a daily driver or at least 60% street.

HTH

 

[digimanoc]

I have Zanardi springs/struts/bars on my '91 hat I just bought a few weeks ago from my friend. He has the stock springs and struts that he still needs to give me....and I'm entertaining the idea of switching back to the stock springs and struts. He tells me that the Zanardi suspension is twice as stiff as the stock, and the type-r is twice as stiff as the Zanardi(4x then stock).

The ride is ok(stiff) with the Zanardi, but I remember riding in it with the stock stuff and it being really comfortable for a sports car.....I don't plan on tracking mine, so ride quality is higher on my priority list.

 

[LJSB]

digimanoc: Are you sure you don't mean 4.23 r&p in your signature?

 

[digimanoc]

digimanoc: Are you sure you don't mean 4.23 r&p in your signature?

oops...
thanks for the correction.

 

[MJK]

Thanks guys!

Hrant,
It sounds like you and I are seeking the same middle ground although you are approaching it with quite a bit more experience. If not for my worn stock dampers, I would probably leave all as is until I get a chance to hone my driving skills a bit more. As it is, I am looking for a good canyon carving suspension that will serve acceptable duty for track or interstates equally well.

It seems like progressive springs would be good to this end, but I am used to the 'feel' of the non-progressive setup and would hate to compromise the feel that I love so much about the car. I am leery of mismatching dampers and springs, but am certainly willing to listen to experience. I am currently considering these:
1. Koni/Zanardi setup (but it is adjustable)
2. OEM Zanardi
3. 02+ NSX-S
(I'd probably get street/track or OEM sways with either)

It sounds like I ought to err a little on the softer side, so I am thinking #3 or #2?

digimanoc,
I am very inerested. Please let me know what kind of use they have on them (life remaining) and what you want for them. Are they OEM sways or aftermarket? PM or e-mail works great for me.


Please keep the opinions coming if anyone has firsthand experience!

Thanks,
Mark

Edit: My grammar stinks

 

[docjohn]

I liked the zanardi koni combo as a street/track setup.This allowed some comfort on crappy roads,but was quite nice at the track.It allowed a little tuning with rebound adjustment.Sounds like you might also like the newer complete oem nsx-s susp,but I have no experience with it.I would say that to me the newer nsx-r susp is a great track/street setup which should'nt be wasted on a street only vehicle.Of course there are lots of folks on bilsteins/eibachs and all manor of spring-bilstien or koni combos.Part of getting your car to "feel" better at the track is also swaybars,noncompliance pieces for the rear,and good tires,-do a search on those topics.

 

[MJK]

Thanks Doc,

It sounds like in my shoes you would pick the Zanardi/Koni? Any advice on what sways to consider with it?

 

[digimanoc]

[digimanoc,
I am very inerested. Please let me know what kind of use they have on them (life remaining) and what you want for them. Are they OEM sways or aftermarket? PM or e-mail works great for me.

White94,

I've got Zanardi OEM bars on it now....I really wasn't planning on switching out the bars if I swap the Zanardi sus for the stock stuff. Can any one tell me if it would be better to switch back the the stock sways if I put the stock sus back in?

As far as selling the Zanardi sus....I never really thought about it. I guess I would if I switched it and liked the stock sus better for my needs. As far as price...?
I'll let you know if I do decide to sell.

 

[Hrant]

Mark, given your comment I would think for now, going less agressive than a Zanardi or Type S would be a better choice for you. Docjohn is correct, use street/track sway bars (all three vendors Dali, SoS and Comptech offer them), you can later add the Type R braces. Many start with Bilsteins/OEM springs if you are looking for more comfort and Koni for more aggressive. But Koni without matching springs seems to be a waste of money. And if you like the non-progressive springs, you are back to square one with me

The charts in here might help. I believe they refer to 97+ coupe and not T.

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm

From an e-mail exchange I exchanged a few weeks ago reading the charts:

-----------------

(a) The Bilstein shocks are stiffer than the Zanardi in the fronts but a tad less in the rears?

(b) If one was to add Zanardi springs to the Bilstein, they would get (1) a nonprogressive suspension that would be perhaps similar to Zanardi in terms of ride but with the flexibility of adjusting height with the Bilstein perch; and (2) maintain a 130 front/rear ratio which seems to be the target for most track oriented set ups, and (3) perhaps still streetable but almost reaching the limits of what an NSX-T could handle - (assuming sway bars are already there)?

I know the combo pairing is important but which is the more critical component in here: the shocks or the springs for 60% firm but comfy street and 40% track?

If one is already vested in Bilstein like I am, Eibach doesn't seem to do that much more except when compressed and the additional change is marginal. But then NSX-T is not a coupe, and 60% of my driving would be street. The Bisltein/Zanardi springs seem to be a guessing game closer to the Type S or the Zanardi ......... and I have heard the Zanardi is not particularly comfortable ............... have you tested/rode in one with Bilstein/Zanardi springs?

---------------

Dali commented that the Zanardi may push the limits of the Bisltein but then the compression/rebound numbers of the Zanardi and Bilstein shocks are very similar.

If you don't mind a 1.25" drop and progressive springs, Dali recommends the Bilstein/Dali springs and he sells a ton of this combo. And he price is pretty sweet.

HTH

 

[MJK]

Thank you for all the help, Hrant!

Mark, given your comment I would think for now, going less agressive than a Zanardi or Type S would be a better choice for you. Docjohn is correct, use street/track sway bars (all three vendors Dali, SoS and Comptech offer them), you can later add the Type R braces. Many start with Bilsteins/OEM springs if you are looking for more comfort and Koni for more aggressive.

Based on that decription, I would take the Koni.

But Koni without matching springs seems to be a waste of money. And if you like the non-progressive springs, you are back to square one with me

In that case, I am back in square one with you.

The charts in here might help. I believe they refer to 97+ coupe and not T.http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm
From an e-mail exchange I exchanged a few weeks ago reading the charts:
-----------------
(a) The Bilstein shocks are stiffer than the Zanardi in the fronts but a tad less in the rears?
(b) If one was to add Zanardi springs to the Bilstein, they would get (1) a nonprogressive suspension that would be perhaps similar to Zanardi in terms of ride but with the flexibility of adjusting height with the Bilstein perch; and (2) maintain a 130 front/rear ratio which seems to be the target for most track oriented set ups, and (3) perhaps still streetable but almost reaching the limits of what an NSX-T could handle - (assuming sway bars are already there)?
I know the combo pairing is important but which is the more critical component in here: the shocks or the springs for 60% firm but comfy street and 40% track?

If one is already vested in Bilstein like I am, Eibach doesn't seem to do that much more except when compressed and the additional change is marginal. But then NSX-T is not a coupe, and 60% of my driving would be street. The Bisltein/Zanardi springs seem to be a guessing game closer to the Type S or the Zanardi ......... and I have heard the Zanardi is not particularly comfortable ............... have you tested/rode in one with Bilstein/Zanardi springs?
---------------
Dali commented that the Zanardi may push the limits of the Bisltein but then the compression/rebound numbers of the Zanardi and Bilstein shocks are very similar.
If you don't mind a 1.25" drop and progressive springs, Dali recommends the Bilstein/Dali springs and he sells a ton of this combo. And he price is pretty sweet.
HTH

I'd rather not have that much drop, or the progressive springs. If the full Zanardi setup is unusually harsh, it sounds like I have 3 options then:

1. Zanardi/Koni might be the way to go, along with some swaybars and poly bushings to match. This may be a little on the harsh side.
2. OEM springs/Sways/and bilsteins. This is probably a little softer than I really want and I either get no drop or an inch drop.
3. Unknown new type S suspension.

I am leaning towards #1, mostly based on Doc's comments. If anyone has experience with the new Type-S suspention, please speak up!

Thanks,
Mark

 

[joove]

When I get the feeling that my prelude feels nicer (once it takes a set and is done rolling) on the turns than my NSX, it was high time I got rid of the shocks. 94, 5spd with 48k miles.

I eliminated all the other variables:
OEM RE010 Tires (brand new on rears)
Recently aligned to OEM specs at los gatod acura (have the print outs)
Inspected and all was ok.

So I am guessing the shocks have gone bad.

From docjohn's, jadkar's and tank's choices, I have decided to go with the koni SA + Zanardi springs. Have gotten them both for a decent 540$ from prime members. Adjustable would be good as I dont want to have to upgrade this stuff if I get serious about HPDE/AutoX. I'll let you know how it feels subjectively on CA roads once the install is done.

 

[MJK]

Perfect, thanks Joove!

If it works on yours then I think it will on mine too.

Stock '94, 5 speed, 47k miles!

 

[docjohn]

unless you are doing the install yourself don't forget to budget in the labor-it can be 1-1.5 hrs per corner!Also if you have a speed shop do it that is unfamiliar with the nsx please do a search on threads involving spring/shock installation as they can be subtley screwed up, such that you may experience funny cluncks and clanks afterward,same with sway-bars.

 

[MJK]

Thanks Doc - I think I am going to DIY it.

I enjoy doing the wrench time even though it takes me twice as long as it should. For major stuff that scares me (timing belt, maybe the clutch) I am lucky enough to have a neighbor with a trailer and Barney a couple hours away. Cross your fingers.

 

[joove]

Yeah. I had asked around. The dealer and foreign affair honda (in the bay area i.e) want some 700 + tax which is reasonable apparently. Don Lam at Hillside was quoting 350 odd $.

I was thinking. How bout I spend some 300$ on tools and do it myself. Rent some compressor springs etc. Maybe even tape my effort to discourage the foolish later on . Last night I dreamt that I was speeding through a corner and suddenly my front shock was on the road behind me :-(.

I'll sleep on this, banish the nightmares and do it myself unless I have a nervious breakdown or smn. 350$ is a pretty fair price for this job. But nothing like doing it myself as I will learn more and learn to spot problems during self inspection.

The DIY and the Shop Manual should probably be enough I am thinking.

Does anyone have a video of their changing their shocks ? Too much to hope for ?

 

[nsxtasy]

Mark,

Rather than do everything at once, which won't tell you the effect of each of the individual components, I would suggest you replace the shocks first, with whatever ones you think will be most likely to meet your needs, and then see how you like it. Since you're interested in slight lowering, I would suggest going with the Bilsteins installed on the lowering perch. Those, with the stock springs, might be exactly what you're looking for, in which case you're done. If you decide that you need something more aggressive, you can then get whatever springs you would like to add on (and possibly move the Bilsteins back to the normal height perch, depending on how much lowering you want and how much the springs provide).

That strategy would give you the ability to go one step at a time, incrementally, and see the effect of each change, to help you stop exactly when you achieve what you're looking for.

 

[MJK]

Ken,

Good idea on doing the shocks only first, but complicated my world of NSX isolation when you get down to Koni vs Bilstein. I assumeing the idea pairing would be Bilstein with stock or Zanardi + Koni. In the ideal world, there would be somebody close enough to get a ridein both. Unfortunately, this is not likely in the cards unless I get to Xpo. I really want to get it addressed before then, so here pros & cons of Bilstein vs Koni as I can gather:

Koni A) If the Bilsteins are not stiff enough, the likely upgrade springs for me would be Zanardis, which apparently don't interact as well with Bilsteins as do the Konis.
Koni B) Aestheically, I prefer the look of the Zanardi vs the Bilstein on the lower perch. and the fact that it drops the nose a little extra. Maybe I would get used to it, but the bilsteins w stockers looks a little too low to me. I doubt I would ever use the lower perch.
Koni C) the fact that I am in the middle of nowhere. I am in a town of 80k, but nobody that I am aware of that I would trust with my NSX. Multiple interations means multiple multi-hour round trips for alignments (usually open during work hours). Compared to that, the $300 for the Zanardis is not really that big of a deal to me.

Bilstein A) The flexibility of the 2 perch system.
Bilstein B) the non-adjustable nature of them.
Bilstein C) Cheaper, assuming you assume I am talking Zanardi + Koni VS stock + Bilstein.

Compared to how it is now, I would prefer a stiffer suspension. I realize either the Konis or Bilsteins will help, but in my mind the odds that I am going to end up with a suspension that is 'too stiff' are relatively small. TN has good roads. (especially compared to Chicago!) When it comes down to actually doing it, the $300 for getting the Zanardi springs isn't a big deal to me. Plus, I then only have to tear apart everything and re-align once.

I am going to think it over for a couple weeks until I hear Joove's impressions but right now I am still leaning towards Zanardi + Koni. I want to replace the master & slave cylinder so I will probably go ahead and do that and revisit when I get done and learn from Joove's (and anyone else's impressions).

Thanks everybody who has posted in this thread, I appreciate the input!

 

[Hrant]

Mark you wrote:

If the Bilsteins are not stiff enough, the likely upgrade springs for me would be Zanardis, which apparently don't interact as well with Bilsteins as do the Konis.

This has not been confirmed or validated because if you look at the charts, the Zanardi and Biltsein shocks have the same rebound and compression (in fact Bilstein is slightly stiffer) so mating Bilsteins to Zanardi springs should not overtax the Bilstein more than they would the Zanardi shocks; in theory.

Also, in my situation the Bilstein on the lower perch dropped the car only 0.5" which is what the Zanardi springs will do for you. The Bilsteins/OEM springs with sway bars give you a very streetable and very sporty drive. I would characterize it as firm but not stiff.

Having said this, you needs may indeed dictate a one stop shopping and if you go with the Koni/Zanardi, the one advantage of the Koni is you can always set it at the softest setting if it is too stiff anywhere else.

Good luck.

 

[MJK]

Oh, I sortof assumed that MJ's earlier comment dealt with the the effective use of the Bilstein with the reduced length of the zanardi spring vs OEM, not the damping force. Thanks for clearing that up!

In that case, Bilstein definitely seems the way to go!! Anyone have experience with Bilstein/Zanardi (asking to keep my potential upgrade path open).

Thanks again guys.

 

[Hrant]

Nice assumption Mark ...

Just as an fyi, there are probably equal numbers of - if not more - Bilstein/Eibachs and Bilstein/Dali springs when compared to Bilstein/OEM. And both former set ups (Eibach and Dali springs) drop the height by 1.25" compared to Zanardi's 0.5" using the upper perch of the Bilstein.

As you figured it out, MJ "was" of the opinion that the Zanardi spring may be too much for the Bilsteins until we had a few exchanges comparing the rebound compression rates. The Type S springs are about 20 lb/in less stiff so that might be another option but I would think these are quite marginal changes. And, you can get the Zanardi from Dali at a price cheaper than the dealers even with NSXCA discount!

See the numbers below for teh shocks. Note that Konis at the softest setting equal the same compression of the Bilstein and Zanardi and slightly softer rebound on the fronts and stiffer on the rear.

Compression - Front
Compression - Rear
Rebound - Front
Rebound - Rear

OEM [ 1997 ]
109%
125%
115%
183%

Zanardi [ 1999 ]
187%
188%
229%
240%

Bilstein
209%
205%
232%
232%

Koni
201% (.330 m/sec)
201% (.330 m/sec)
179% (.131 m/sec)
257% (.131 m/sec)

So, have I confused you enough

 

[MJK]

Nice assumption Mark ...

Just as an fyi, there are probably equal numbers of - if not more - Bilstein/Eibachs and Bilstein/Dali springs when compared to Bilstein/OEM. And both former set ups (Eibach and Dali springs) drop the height by 1.25" compared to Zanardi's 0.5" using the upper perch of the Bilstein

Well, I am not the sharpest grape in the bunch but I am learning due to the excellent company I choose to keep.


Ooops, I can be a little dense from time to time.

The Type S springs are about 20 lb/in less stiff so that might be another option but I would think these are quite marginal changes. And, you can get the Zanardi from Dali at a price cheaper than the dealers even with NSXCA discount!

See the numbers below for the shocks. Note that Konis at the softest setting equal the same compression of the Bilstein and Zanardi and slightly softer rebound on the fronts and stiffer on the rear.

< cut out the specs for brevity >

Thank you for the excellent info on the shocks!

Assuming that OEM system is perfectly damped, then in theory you would want a shock that matched the Zanardi springs' increase in stiffness over stock, right? I am assuming in that overdamped = stiffer = greater roll resistance. Underdamped = more compliant but tending towards oscillations.

Would that mean that when paired with Zanardi SPrings that Koni is underdamped on the front at softest settings and overdamped at the rear? If so, the opposite would be true of the Bilsteins. Meanwhile, the Bilsteins offer a marginally compliant ride and potential to understeer when compared to the Konis? I would then further assume that konis have the ability be tuned to balance by setting the fronts a little stiffer, which would make the whole setup a little stiffer but with a less defined breakaway point?

Sorry to have muddled the water even further, but if my above ramblings are correct (Big IF) than it seems bilstein is the correct choice for me on the lower perch with OEMs initally or on the pper with Zanardis eventually?

BTW, what did you end up doing if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Hrant]

Mark, I did not see you dangle a $64,000 or is it in the mail ........

Your analysis is correct, albeit, just like mine, it is primarliy theoretical and I was fully aware of that when I exchanged e-mails with MJ. As MJ often tells me, just go out and try it

The differences you note between the Koni (softest setting) and Bilstein for street driving are really minimal and most of us will hardly discern them unless we are driving on harsher roads. It is at the track where you notice the options. As you note, the advantage of the Koni is it can be further adjusted to your liking/set up and presumably would accept stiffer springs.

Given your one stop shopping scenario, and without really knowing how stiff is stiff enough for you, the most efficient gamble appears to be Koni/Zanardi because of Koni's adjustability. And docjohn has used this setup. This set up will start where Bilstein/Zanardi leaves. But you said you did not want adjustability ......

The next option would be Bilsein/Zanardi, and I would put on the higher perch for two reasons. (a) Keeps the ride height to no more than 0.5" +/- drop that you want; and (b) it compresses the springs less so you have more rebound for streetability.

On the other hand, Bilstein on lower perch/OEM springs is a very nice set up, and with street/track sway bars at stiffest postion on the fronts will give you a surprisingly firm and assured sporty drive.

As to what I ended up doing, I am still sorting my own confusion as I type but seriously, sicne I have an NSX-T, I most likely will go with Bilstein (upper perch)/Zanardi just because (a) I have the Bislteins already, also Comptech sway bars and non-compliance toe link; and (b) if not already there, anything stiffer will most likely start giving me the shake, rattle and roll

So go ahead, make the switch and let me know before I make a mistake at your espense ....... LOL!

 

[docjohn]

Might I add,,,,don't over-think this whole susp thing.Any of the tryed and true settups will provide good handling.The issue of going one step at a time and feeling each upgrade is imo too ponderous for the average joe,me included.If tracking is your primary thing then I would get lots of track time while stock then do your mods,then once you are to a point where instructers are saying you have reached advanced level then jump to R tires.If the car is for street only then have fun,but still try to do some auto-x or a few hpde's or spend some $ for Skippy,Daly,Bondeuront,ect.

 

[MJK]

Given your one stop shopping scenario, and without really knowing how stiff is stiff enough for you, the most efficient gamble appears to be Koni/Zanardi because of Koni's adjustability. And docjohn has used this setup. This set up will start where Bilstein/Zanardi leaves. But you said you did not want adjustability ......

Thanks for the help guys, I REALLY appreciate it. After your and Doc's input, I think this is probably the way I will end up going along with some adjustable sways.

Originally posted by Hrant
Mark, I did not see you dangle a $64,000 or is it in the mail ........

Well, I am going to wait to do a couple other projects first (like my recently groaning clutch master cylinder). Hopefully in the mean time, joove will be the early adopter for both of us. Of course, if the 'check is in the mail' I might be convinced to do this a little sooner!

Originally posted by Docjohn
If the car is for street only then have fun,but still try to do some auto-x or a few hpde's or spend some $ for Skippy,Daly,Bondeuront,ect

It is only street, and frankly is babied. However, this almost entirely a function of my lack of a close track combined with my lack of time. I am trying to make it to this event as a first learning experience. Its not Mid-Ohio or Laguna Seca, but I am almost positive I can fit it into my schedule so I'll take what I can get if the details work out.

As a side note, I can remember reading Doug H's site a few years ago telling myself that I could resist the GFCP. Of course, I don't have a problem but if I did I am not sure if you guys would be 'support group' for recovering addicts or the guy standing in the corner saying that 'the first hit is free.'