NEW NSX-R

I have seen the pics, what I havn't been able to find are specs.

DO we know yet what the car weighs? Is it using the same gear ratios as all the other 6 speeds?

ect...
 
 
IMO Honda should have completely gone Type R for the refresh. I think they would havd received more sales and attention in the states had they done that.

This is a great car with decidedly better performance then any production NSX. That with the CF, fixed headlights, etc.

JMO - I bet a lot of people would have traded up to get a Type-R but few will trade up for a slightly newer targa. That and there are so many newer convertable / open top options for non NSX fans leads me to beleave they aren't selling a lot of them to people cross shopping many other cars.
 
Originally posted by matteni:
IMO Honda should have completely gone Type R for the refresh. I think they would havd received more sales and attention in the states had they done that.
Click to expand...

Given the difficulty they had selling only 50 Zanardi NSXs, it's no wonder they didn't bring in the Type R model. The market for a lightweight, decontented version of the NSX (and any other high-performance sportscar) is but a tiny fraction of that of a more conventional model.
 
Good point Ken but...

- I don't think the Zanardi went far enough
- You can order the typeR with AC / Stereo (no extra charge)
- The CF and perfectly blueprinted engine are enough of a difference to get people to trade up
- The fact that it was tested at 12.5 1/4 mile says to me that this car has WAY more power then they are advertising (or they dropped it off a 1/4 mile cliff!)

We will never know the answer to this but can you imagine the excitement it would have generated with the thousands of people (and potential customers) on this board? I read the Honda Type-R review in Motor Trend (? I get so many I don't remember which).

They asked the reporter if people would be interested in this type R model with the cool seats, etc. The professional journal said YES! My intuition tells me yes as well.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids
 
There's a big difference between what people say they want to see, and what they actually buy. And all the experience with what people actually buy, says that the NSX-R would likely have been a bust in the marketplace.

Face it, Nick - considering that you've never bought a new NSX, would you buy a new NSX-R? I'm guessing, highly unlikely.
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Face it, Nick - considering that you've never bought a new NSX, would you buy a new NSX-R? I'm guessing, highly unlikely.
Click to expand...

Hmm - so I get to decide based on what I would do?
smile.gif


Seriously - if I said - YES I would go out and buy one now and here is the account co-signed to Acura that they can withdraw the money from - would that change your OPINION. I have said everything I BELIEVE and you have stated that you have a different OPINION and you feel your opinion is more valid because of what you or I would personally do in a micro economic case vs. what might have been better for Acura in the US on a macro economic case?

I am not trying to change your OPINION and since neither of us know for a FACT and can't determine FACTS based on what you or I would do then I submit to you that my opinion is equally valid. Furthermore, the article led me to believe that Acura / Honda never considered selling the type-r here (although I find that very hard to believe).

Anyway - I have stated my opinion, have not been swayed based on what you or I would do and still would like to see Honda bring the Type R here next year since they don't have a significant cost in doing so and it might create some REAL excitement vs. just the new lights and being able to get colored leather seats. I also think it is disturbing that people can no longer order the faster, tighter, lighter coupe as it was the original and only NSX when the car was designed and introduced.

YMMV.

[This message has been edited by matteni (edited 04 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by matteni:
Good point Ken but...

- The fact that it was tested at 12.5 1/4 mile says to me that this car has WAY more power then they are advertising (or they dropped it off a 1/4 mile cliff!)
Click to expand...


Hasn't anyone with a Type R ever Dyno'd their car?? The old Type R has been around forever.. I would be interested to see how it compares to a standard NSX.
 
Originally posted by NetViper:

Hasn't anyone with a Type R ever Dyno'd their car?? The old Type R has been around forever.. I would be interested to see how it compares to a standard NSX.
Click to expand...

I too would like to see that but note - there was a lot of variability between the Dyno HP of the stock 91' NSXs at a dyno day. Just one dyno would be interesting but there would be a lot of questionability of the data (how old is the car, how hard driven, type of dyno, temp/humidity on that day, condition of the transmission, altitude, etc.). Still would be interesting but I doubt conclusive.
 
Originally posted by matteni:
OPINION
BELIEVE
OPINION
OPINION
FACT
FACTS
Click to expand...

Yes, we can only present our opinions and speculate on what might happen. However, there are a few simple facts that may help us reach our opinion in this speculation:

FACT: When the Zanardi Edition NSX was introduced in 1999, it was accompanied by a fair amount of publicity, with articles about it in most of the major magazines. Only 49 cars were available in the States. Yet many of these cars sat in showrooms for six months or more, and sold for steep discounts from MSRP, and were much harder to sell than the 200 or so more-expensive NSX-T sold that year.

FACT: The non-Zanardi "faster, tighter, lighter coupe" you mention has been available since 1996, yet has never sold more than five cars in a year.

The only conclusion - excuse me, opinion - I can come to, based on these facts, is that the NSX-R would likely be as difficult to sell as the NSX-Z and post-'96 NSX Coupe have been. As an enthusiast, I would love to see the NSX-R introduced here and result in a big success in both image and sales for Acura; however, if I were a betting man, I would have to say that past experience shows that the odds are heavily stacked against it. And the last thing the NSX needs for its image is another model that is perceived as another failure in the marketplace, particularly right before the pending introduction of a new-generation model.

Of course, YOMV.
 
I am curious? Why do you think there are so many models in Japan? Type-S, Type S-Zero, Type R?

How many NSX's do they sell per year there? Is it much higher than the US?

The Latest Motor Trend says there will be no changes at all for the NSX in 03. Too bad. They REALLY need a bump in power with porsche sitting at 320 in the 911 and the boxster S now near 260. I guess nobody at Honda reads this forum. If they did, they would realize that almost EVERYONE here wants more power.

They also said that honda will not be bringing the RSX-R to the states. Instead, they will start to sell aftermaketing Packages called FP (i think -- factory performance?) that will stiffin up the car and add body kits.. No change in the engine specs though.
frown.gif




[This message has been edited by NetViper (edited 04 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by NetViper:
I am curious? Why do you think there are so many models in Japan? Type-S, Type S-Zero, Type R?
Click to expand...

I don't know why, but they seem to offer more customization in general than in the States - witness too the availability of such Porsche-like options as custom stitching colors, the factory refresh program, etc.

Originally posted by NetViper:
How many NSX's do they sell per year there? Is it much higher than the US?
Click to expand...

They've sold slightly fewer than in the States - roughly 7,200 total vs 8,000. But in recent years they've only sold about a quarter as many as here. They haven't sold a hundred NSX in a year since 1997. Click here to view actual sales by calendar year in Japan.

Originally posted by NetViper:
The Latest Motor Trend says there will be no changes at all for the NSX in 03. Too bad. They REALLY need a bump in power with porsche sitting at 320 in the 911 and the boxster S now near 260. I guess nobody at Honda reads this forum. If they did, they would realize that almost EVERYONE here wants more power.
Click to expand...

I interpret things very differently. I have spoken with the NSX product planners at American Honda HQ in Torrance. I can assure you that everyone THERE recognizes the need for more power.

However, more power is expensive. It's not a trivial matter to add power, particularly to an engine that's already highly engineered. Plus, Honda will not introduce a model that has less than outstanding reliability.

I believe that it makes eminent business sense for Honda to place all of its financial investment in a new powertrain for the next-generation NSX, rather than in adding power to a car that's going to be discontinued after next year.

Originally posted by NetViper:
They also said that honda will not be bringing the RSX-R to the states. Instead, they will start to sell aftermaketing Packages called FP (i think -- factory performance?) that will stiffin up the car and add body kits.. No change in the engine specs though.
Click to expand...

We're going off topic now, but... I continue to hear conflicting reports about the RSX-R; some are certain it will come, and others are equally certain it will not. My personal belief (just guessing) is that we will see it introduced here at some time during the current generation RSX model cycle. In any case, though, just like with the NSX, I can assure you that the product planners for the RSX (who are the same folks as for the NSX) are just as aware of the "buzz" on the streets regarding the desire for a "real" RSX Type R, as they are for the need for more power in the NSX.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 04 September 2002).]
 
From this article
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/previews/2002/february/200202_preview_acuransx.xml?keywords=NSX

You can see this:

This brings us to the question of how the NSX's performance compares with that of the other big-name players in this general price realm. At 290 horsepower, its all-aluminum 3.2-liter (automatic versions get a 252-hp 3.0-liter) DOHC 24-valve VTEC V-6 is on the light side of the power ledger compared with its competition. The Porsche 911 Carrera flat-six is up to 3.6 liters and 315 hp (from 3.4 and 300) for 2002, the '02 Corvette Z06 V-8 serves up 405 hp (up from 385 in '01), and the Dodge Viper V-10 brings 450 ponies to the party, with 500 due next year.

The last NSX we tested (July 1999) was an Alex Zanardi limited-edition model, which scaled in much lighter (2970 pounds versus 3153) than the curb weight Acura lists for the 2002 model. It sprinted to 60 mph in 4.8 seconds, covered the quarter-mile in 13.2 at 106 mph, stopped from 70 mph in 164 feet, and pulled 0.93 g on the skidpad.
Respectable numbers, but not extraordinary. Our long-term 1999 Carrera (May 2001) was about the same in its wrap-up runs (0 to 60 in 4.8 seconds; 13.4 seconds at 105 mph in the quarter-mile), with 19 fewer ponies than the '02 version.

Our most recent Viper test numbers are a year old (February '01). That Viper, a 460-hp GTS ACR model, hit 60 mph in 4.3 seconds and ran the quarter in a robust 12.6 seconds at 114 mph. The Z06 from that same test recorded 4.0 seconds and 12.4 at 116.
Click to expand...

If the type-R was tested at 12.5 quarter then you can bet that it is much more powerfull then a stock NSX and way into modern supercar status.
 
The NSX-R weighs in at 1240kg. Its about 400lbs lighter than a Stock NSX-T. Basically as far as Power to weight ratio's go, thats the same as getting an extra 30-40hp. Not to mention the fact that the 6 Speed's gears are MUCH closer ratio than stock, and also the final drive has been changed to 4.23.

And Contrary to whats been voiced by a few people earlier, the NSX-R would not sell very well *anywhere*. They can barely get people to buy them in Japan. The front springs are almost 600lbs/inch and the rear's are around 450-500lbs/inch. Does anyone honestly think that there are a huge number of people that would drive around on the street on springs that stiff? Not to mention the shocks. Polyurethane/Delrin/Metal bushings make it all the worse, along with no sound insulation. Most Japanese customers buy these strictly for the track. Not many American owners take their NSX's to the track (as evidenced by me being the sole NSX owner in about 10 track events across 2 years here in the NW) so regardless of how great the NSX-R is, its not going to sell.
 
Originally posted by matteni:
If the type-R was tested at 12.5 quarter then you can bet that it is much more powerfull then a stock NSX and way into modern supercar status.
Click to expand...

I do not understand...

A stock 3.2L NSX coupe will turn 12.9 in the 1/4 mile. Throw out several hundred pounds, as with the -R and the math says it should be in the mid-12s with the same power.
 
The Motor Trend article quoted the Honda spokesperson as saying the goal was 100 NSX Type-R's for 2002 (just Japan or worldwide where available?). If that was true that would double the total NSX's sold in Japan for last year - if I am reading the production numbers correctly.

I didn't see how many had sold this year from any of the sales numbers. I don't have the article here so a lot of it is from memory - but I read it so many times I should have just memorized it!
smile.gif


Also - the 13.2 quarter was for the lighter NSX-Z. I think the blueprinted engine IS producing extra power (can't prove it). I intuitively believe that the extra time spent matching parts would produce extra power as it is basically built to race car tolerances (from the article - not my words). I think you are correct in that the R&P / gearing makes up for some of that but I don't think there is a big difference in weight between the NSX R and the NSX-Z so that only leaves more power. The coupe is exactly 3069 lbs so the Type R is about 300 lbs lighter.

I don't know if the NSX Type-R would be considered streatable and I have not driven one (nor have I heard of anyone in the auto press who has driven one seriously complain either). Many people believed the 94' Porsche speedster was not streetable and yet they are highly sought after even today.

My point is why even bother with the 02' refresh? There is nothing there - IMO. A few body parts, lights, etc. Better for them to use the resources, time, and money on the 04' or 0-whatever new model.

Do you think anyone bought an 02' based on the new features? Wouldn't a Type-R have been an exciting, press generating, and maybe even sales boosting departure from the status quo? Type-R is so sacred and so rare for Honda - it would have been AWESOME to see.

Oh well - I like the type-R and even the big wing is growing on me. In the article the Honda rep asked rhetorically, "do you think anyone in the US would buy an NSX Type R?" I guess the journalist and I shared the same speculative opinion - YES.

BTW - what is the incremental cost of giving the US the same options as much of the rest of the world. Why NOT let us order a Type-R, Type-S, etc? I completely don't understand - since they build it and can order it in Japan and their processes support it and it is basically the same car - why not allow the US to order it?
 
Originally posted by Edo:
Not many American owners take their NSX's to the track (as evidenced by me being the sole NSX owner in about 10 track events across 2 years here in the NW)
Click to expand...

Maybe that's true in the NW, but it's not true in the Midwest. I know a lot of NSX owners who track their cars - some casually (once or twice a year, or not even), others frequently (four to eight times a year or more). I run into folks driving NSXs frequently at track events held by BMW CCA and by CGI Motorsports. In fact, I would guess that more NSX owners track their cars than Porsche owners or Ferrari owners.

Heck, it's not even true in California. At NSXPO '99 at Laguna Seca, the largest NSXPO to date, there were 119 NSX owners signed up for the track event - 12 as instructors, 107 as students (not counting several dozen non-owner instructors). This was the first track event for 39 of the owners; for the other 70, it was not their first track event, and 30 of those had driven in 10 or more events.

Of course, the numbers since then have probably gone up, not down.

Compared with NSXPO '99, the percentage of owners with track experience at other NSXPOs has been higher, but the number of attendees has been lower, with drivers in the track event numbering 50-70 each year. The majority (not all, but the majority) who attend each NSXPO come from the immediate area and surrounding states, and thus do not represent double-counting of attendees from other years.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 04 September 2002).]
 
So, it looks like we all know if Acura came out with a light-weight car next year, chances of it selling are slim.

However, if they came out with a FACTORY supercharger/Turbo option for 5K extra that pumped the car up to 420-50HP and did 0-60 in 4.1-4.3 and the 1/4 mile in 12.5, I think you would see A LOT of renewed interest in the NSX. Given Honda's relationship with comptech, I don't see why this hasn't been done for years already.

Heck, they used a Turbo for the NSX Lemans car... why didn't they offer that option?? (it was making 650hp!)



[This message has been edited by NetViper (edited 04 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by NetViper:
Given Honda's relationship with CompTech, I don't see why this hasn't been done for years already.
Click to expand...

Back in 97/98 when the CompTech unit first came out there were some rumors on the list that the CT supercharger was partially funded by Honda to study a factory Supercharger. Their redesigned intake manifold is apparently pretty good and at a minimum I would bet that they had consulting if not development help from Honda.

Don't know if it is true or why the decision was made not to have a supercharged NSX. Only someone closer to the "woodwork" could answer that question for us.

Allthough much of the same could be accomplished with an all CF body, shortened and longer stroke pistons, higher compression ratios, etc.

OR - maybe we just need an electric motor for the front wheels!
smile.gif
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Given the difficulty they had selling only 50 Zanardi NSXs, it's no wonder they didn't bring in the Type R model. The market for a lightweight, decontented version of the NSX (and any other high-performance sportscar) is but a tiny fraction of that of a more conventional model.
Click to expand...
How did the ITR do ??

In my opinion, its more a "high-end track-tuned halo car" offering that drives it, not a question of economic viability. Other examples of lower-volume, de-contented, higher-power cars are the Porsche 911 GT2, or Ferrari 360GT.
 

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