New NSX not MR: Sellout anyone?

[Lotus_Esprit]

In my lifetime (thats not much by the way) I have been a loyal fan to MR layout. my first MR was a 1986 toyota MR2. and I loved how that car handled and performed. I have driven all kinds of layouts before and I like the MR much better then any other layout next to Subaru's symentrical AWD.

 

[BD]

Don't kid your self, I'll take a 599 over a 430 any day!!!

I'll take a Daytona over a Countach any day.

I'll take a....

Depend on the car really. If this car can deliver, why not? BUT I'll still have my NSX in the garage even if I'm going own the new one:wink:

 

[oscar_driver]

The question should be:


>>SHOULD this new Honda Supercar/GT/Supercoupe be called NSX?

>>or something else?

Oscar

 

[Doc C]

I agree with Vancehu. It depends on the car. Front vs mid-engine really makes no difference. In SCCA club racing people win races and championships with front engined cars all the time. The mid-engine cars rarely do well on road courses. A friend of mine, Michael Pettiford has won many races and championships with a 1996 V-8 Camaro Z-28. He now races a Pontiac Solstice and they beat the Lotus Elises all day long. The NSX is a neat car, but a new Z-06.......hell even an old C-5 regular Corvette would beat an NSX silly on a race track easily. Even the V-6 Camaros will give a stock NSX all it can handle and would most likely beat it. The NSX is a great sports car, looks good, handles well etc., but it is not a race car. Truly, the king of stock "race cars" would be the new Z-06. And, dollar for dollar is the best all around performance/race/sports car in the world. I just got my SCCA racing national certificate and in talking with many folks about a race car, all of them think of a V-8 Camaro very fondly and all rave about the Solstice. No one has ever raced an NSX with any kind of real success. It's in the T1 class and gets its ass kicked. Jeff Jenson raced one, but any success he had was because of him and not the car.
It seems to me racing is like golf. You can spend $1,200 on a set of clubs and look good but not win, or you can spend $300 on clubs and $900 on lessons and win.

The next NSX or whatever name it has should try to be a true sports car, whether mid or front engined. The GT-R seems to be that way. The Z-06 is. Hopefully Honda can build one of that same caliber. I love my NSX, but no way do I think it is truly a race car. It just isn't.

 

[shrddr]

I agree with Vancehu. It depends on the car. Front vs mid-engine really makes no difference. In SCCA club racing people win races and championships with front engined cars all the time. The mid-engine cars rarely do well on road courses. A friend of mine, Michael Pettiford has won many races and championships with a 1996 V-8 Camaro Z-28. He now races a Pontiac Solstice and they beat the Lotus Elises all day long. The NSX is a neat car, but a new Z-06.......hell even an old C-5 regular Corvette would beat an NSX silly on a race track easily. Even the V-6 Camaros will give a stock NSX all it can handle and would most likely beat it. The NSX is a great sports car, looks good, handles well etc., but it is not a race car. Truly, the king of stock "race cars" would be the new Z-06. And, dollar for dollar is the best all around performance/race/sports car in the world. I just got my SCCA racing national certificate and in talking with many folks about a race car, all of them think of a V-8 Camaro very fondly and all rave about the Solstice. No one has ever raced an NSX with any kind of real success. It's in the T1 class and gets its ass kicked. Jeff Jenson raced one, but any success he had was because of him and not the car.
It seems to me racing is like golf. You can spend $1,200 on a set of clubs and look good but not win, or you can spend $300 on clubs and $900 on lessons and win.

The next NSX or whatever name it has should try to be a true sports car, whether mid or front engined. The GT-R seems to be that way. The Z-06 is. Hopefully Honda can build one of that same caliber. I love my NSX, but no way do I think it is truly a race car. It just isn't.

an objective post. a rarity. i like it.

 

[H-carWizKid]

The question should be:


>>SHOULD this new Honda Supercar/GT/Supercoupe be called NSX?

>>or something else?

Oscar

we have already covered that HERE

I believe they should not call it an NSX. I have been saying that since 2003.

The NSX is an NSX, whatever comes next is something else.

P

 

[Tanto2]

Lotus: I couldn't disagree more with the responers above. In fact, he must be joking about the camaros and old vettes. I've spent some hours at SCCA events, and owned two camaros (to my displeasure). The ONLY reason these cars can beat ANYTHING is the V8 torque (which is a HUGE issue on the track or the street), and their suspensions are almost totally replaced. Mid engine cars not handling on road courses? Gee, is that why the NSX won Lemans when is started raining? This gentleman is not paying attention obviously. I haven't driven either a 599 or a 430, but I'd bet that 100 out of 100 race drivers would tell you the 430 handles just a smidge better. All of these cars are engineered so well now, yes an excellent front car will out handle a mediocre mid car, but there is a reason F1 and indy cars are mid-engine. I'll never ever own another front engine sports car. Many just can't tell the difference. I can. Not in ultimate handling, but certainly driving pleasure. I bought an X19 as a fluke many years ago. I could do things in that car (modified just a bit) that I doubt a 599 could do, and I know a Z06 couldn't, at least not safely. Mid-engine cars are for drivers drivers as they say. Keep the faith and ignore the others. No offense to you other guys, we mid nuts have to. Second gen MR turbos are EXCELLENT cars and would have done excellent on the track if they weren't screwed by the SCCA rules.

 

[wilsonp]

I don't think Peter Cunningham would agree either...

I also started with an MR-2 (1989 Supercharged) and didn't enjoy my (brief) experience with an FR (2000 Eclipse GT). Between budget and availability, a Cayman S or R8 (once I am independently wealthy) seem like the best bets for replacing the NSX (or a newer NSX first).

Plus I find it hard to believe the new car could look better than (or even as good as) a modern Aston Martin.

 

[H-carWizKid]

I don't think Peter Cunningham would agree either...

Really? Why do you suppose he has usually (with the exception of the NSX now discontinued due to being non-competetive) campaigned FWD cars for the team then?

the ITR, the RSX, and TSX race cars are all FWD cars. All 3 platforms have had great success in the Speed Touring Car Championships...

It isn't always the car- most of the time it is the driver.

P

 

[wilsonp]

Does Honda make a RWD he could race?

 

[Doc C]

Really? Why do you suppose he has usually (with the exception of the NSX now discontinued due to being non-competetive) campaigned FWD cars for the team then?

the ITR, the RSX, and TSX race cars are all FWD cars. All 3 platforms have had great success in the Speed Touring Car Championships...

It isn't always the car- most of the time it is the driver.

P

Absolutely, and the NSX he drove was an NSX in name only. It was INCREDIBLY modified with a bottomless budget behind him. He could have been in an AMC Pacer and done as well as he did with that budget and those mods.

No, the Camaro suspensions are not totally replaced, because the SCCA won't allow. They might allow shocks, but the live rear axle is still there.

It is about the driver. I've seen seasoned drivers in Miatas and Proteges win easily against BMW 3 and 5 series cars (with inexperienced drivers) on open track days.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Does Honda make a RWD he could race?

Well - if he wanted to run an RL with SH AWD in Speed GT I imagine he could (since the Audi's he goes up against are generally AWD).

The only RWD in Honda's product line is the S2000, and it's displacement won't qualify for GT.

The FWD cars he runs pretty much dominate the Touring car series. I wonder what he could do with a built out TL-S, or possibly an SH AWD TL-S once released in the next gen.

P

 

[NetViper]

I don't think it is a sell-out, I just don't think there is a huge market for the current NSX set-up... hell there never was.

I just hope they call it something else.

We need something to take the light off the GT-R for a while. C&D just placed it higher than the Z06, GT2 and Viper ACR.

 

[Silver F16]

Back in 07, we had a poll which had 265 votes, the most votes by far.

The results indicated 92.4% wanted Mid-engine compared to 3% which wanted front engine.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82263

 

[swbatte]

We aren't the best people to ask as most of us are/were 2nd or 3rd owners of the car and didn't pay full pop.

Ask a question like:

For those of you with $140,000 to spend on a car, and want to buy another Acura Halo car, would you buy a:

A. Front engine car (as described by Honda)
B. Another brand's mid-engine car if Honda doesn't go in that direction; or
C. Either

It doesn't matter what we think or write on Prime. Honda is building a FE AWD car with a V10 & SHAWD.

Why do we still talk about this??? Why am I writing this??? I don't know!

 

[eclipse1501]

The question should be:


>>SHOULD this new Honda Supercar/GT/Supercoupe be called NSX?

>>or something else?

Oscar

You hit the nail on the head. The result of the New Supercar Xperiment happened in 1990 and to label this front engine V10 an NSX is a disservice to the whole idea. Honda's new supercar is re-configured, re-styled and should be re-branded.

 

[Tanto2]

Absolutely, and the NSX he drove was an NSX in name only. It was INCREDIBLY modified with a bottomless budget behind him. He could have been in an AMC Pacer and done as well as he did with that budget and those mods.

No, the Camaro suspensions are not totally replaced, because the SCCA won't allow. They might allow shocks, but the live rear axle is still there.

It is about the driver. I've seen seasoned drivers in Miatas and Proteges win easily against BMW 3 and 5 series cars (with inexperienced drivers) on open track days.

Doc, you obviously didn't attend any of the NSX races like most of us did. Peters Budget was TINY, the only reason he could compete is that the car was NOT MODIFIED MUCH AT ALL. The early cars were almost stock. They used the same engine all year long. In fact he used to brag about being the ONLY car with stock suspension points. When Audi came in their budget was a whopping 400 million. Thats why Peter dropped out, and Honda didn't come along with a bigger engine to work with. Regarding the suspensions, it depends what class you are talking. You have never driven a stock Camaro hard, have you? What are you doing on this site dude?

 

[H-carWizKid]

Doc, you obviously didn't attend any of the NSX races like most of us did. Peters Budget was TINY, the only reason he could compete is that the car was NOT MODIFIED MUCH AT ALL. The early cars were almost stock. They used the same engine all year long. In fact he used to brag about being the ONLY car with stock suspension points. When Audi came in their budget was a whopping 400 million. Thats why Peter dropped out, and Honda didn't come along with a bigger engine to work with. Regarding the suspensions, it depends what class you are talking. You have never driven a stock Camaro hard, have you? What are you doing on this site dude?

1st- Don't take this conversation in the direction you are taking it. Doc C has been on this site a Loooong time- actually, 2 yrs longer than you. He is curteous, and he was just stating his opinion based on the facts of his experience, so how about cutting him some slack?

Second- if you think the RTR NSX was anything close to "not modified much at all", you are sorely mistaken. At the end of it's operational life the car was Supercharged for Christ sakes! It was modified in every way a car could possibly be modified, and that shop was about the furthest thing from a "tiny budget" facility that I can imagine. The rest of your "facts" are dubious at best IMO. PD was incredibly competetive with the Audi's at the start of the last competetive season for the NSX, and remained so until Speed GT started limiting his boost allowance mid season. The officials decided the weight penalties that applied to everyone else weren't enough to create parity for the series. As far as I know the RTR NSX was the only car subjected to boost restriction after the season began.

How do I know? You may have gone to races- I went to the shop...

See the two guys standing between the ITR, and the NSX? I am the guy with the dark hair, and the grey hair dude in the matching T-shirt standing next to me is my Dad. We are both giving the RTR NSX our most careful inspection. This photo was taken in the RTR facility in Wisconsin where we were attending a reception party at the start of NSXPO 2001.

BTW- that car was amazing. for the cost of a donation to 9/11 charities some lucky NSXCA members got taken for rides in the car at the Road America track event.

This doesn't look stock...

Philip

 

[BioBanker]

I don't know where the post above claiming that c5 vettes and v6 Camaros beat or are even close to NSXs on the track gets its information from.

 

[H-carWizKid]

I don't know where the post above claiming that c5 vettes and v6 Camaros beat or are even close to NSXs on the track gets its information from.

probably personal experience, and as such it is only as valid as that persons experience.

I think we can all agree that the NSX is a fantastic sports car. IMO far better than a Camaro, or Corvette- but then, that is my experience!

Philip

 

[BioBanker]

I guess, but it is so far away from my personal experiences that I cannot believe that someone has found that a V6 Camaro is anything even close to a match for an NSX.

I think that V6 Camaros have a rough time with Integra GSRs myself.

 

[Doc C]

First, thanks H-carWizKid for the kind words. Second, my post is based on my personal experience and advice from my instructor and friend Michael Pettiford who has given me instruction to get my national SCCA racing license. He has raced V-6 Camaros, V-8 Camaros extensively for many years and holds track records for lap times at most tracks in Colorado. He now races Pontiac Solstices. Both normally aspirated and turbo models. I was wanting to get into racing and was considering the NSX. His point was that the V-8 Camaros will beat an NSX easily on a road course. The V-6 Camaros would be competitive on a tight course, but in a course with a long straight the NSX would most likely be able to beat it. Against a C-5 Corvette. Not even close!!! Look at how many NSXs have won victories in any aspect of SCCA racing vs. Camaros of any kind. The NSX race car from Pike's Peak Acura is a neat car, and Jeff Jansen is a great driver, but the car is simply not competitive in its class. That's why he doesn't race it anymore. My main point was that the driver is the most important factor. Not where the engine is. Tiger woods could use a set of women's clubs from the 50s and beat anyone's ass with the latest equipment. However, I was also stating that the NSX is easily surpassed as a true race car or track car. The Pontiac Solstice turbo would eat its lunch easily. It's a neat road car, but there is no way it is competitive at the national SCCA level. Thus, I'll be buying a Solstice or V-8 Camaro or Corvette for my race car. I'll keep the NSX for weekend drives.

Tanto2-Please don't question my rationale for posting here. I've been a contributor to this site, a member of NSXCA, and have attended NSXPOs. I love the NSX as much as anyone else, but it is really past its prime compared to current offerings as well as many in the last 5-10 years. If you'd like to race Mr. Pettiford in your NSX against his Solstice, I think I could arrange that. He might even take you in his Mazda Protege!!!:smile:

 

[swbatte]

I guess, but it is so far away from my personal experiences that I cannot believe that someone has found that a V6 Camaro is anything even close to a match for an NSX.

I think that V6 Camaros have a rough time with Integra GSRs myself.

Regardless of anything else said, I have to agree. I am not familiar with the rules of SCCA racing, or what classes each car runs in, but Dave and I are experienced Track rats in the NSX, and have owned GSRs to. I am certain our lap times would be lower in an NSX.

Given equal driver, stock NSX to V6 Camaro, or C5 I have to expect lap times to be lower in the NSX.

I can see a professional driver wiping the track with your average NSX owner in anything he drives.

Just so I don't hijack this thread....
The new Acura Supercar will be faster than our MR NSXs regardless of it's configuration, again with same driver on same track.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Regardless of anything else said, I have to agree. I am not familiar with the rules of SCCA racing, or what classes each car runs in, but Dave and I are experienced Track rats in the NSX, and have owned GSRs to. I am certain our lap times would be lower in an NSX.

Given equal driver, stock NSX to V6 Camaro, or C5 I have to expect lap times to be lower in the NSX.

I can see a professional driver wiping the track with your average NSX owner in anything he drives.

Just so I don't hijack this thread....
The new Acura Supercar will be faster than our MR NSXs regardless of it's configuration, again with same driver on same track.

I agree with all points above, but will also interject that it would be far more practical and inexpensive to modify, and operate a Camaro, C5, or Solstice as a club racing vehicle. With the lower cost of operation performance potential is increased significantly.

to stay off a hijack tangent I will also say that the V10 sounds incredibly sweet, and I will likely embrace the new car as revolutionary rather than evolutionary.

Honda made a call- AWD V10. The performance is there (7:37 is really fast, and it is still early in the game). This new car will be interesting, and i look forward to reading more about it as it developes.

Philip

 

[BioBanker]

I remember when a local Acura dealer campained an NSX in Grand Am. It was classed against the Cobras, Vettes and the like. It did okay, not great, because it would get killed on the straights. It was also a tough car to run because it was aluminum. The class rules were tougher on the NSX than any other car in the field, or so they said. So they stopped running it.

I agree that put the right person in any car and that person will handily beat almost anyone on this board, including myself, in my NSX. I also know that Im, myself, an advanced intermediate driver in my STREET CAR NSX, getting within 3% of Pro Drivers in full blown Grand Am race cars. The NSX has to be a whole lot better than what you're saying if I am able to do that.

i think that youre getting incorrect information from your friend. At best, I believe it us incomplete information. I know that NSXs were not campaigned a lot, but my understanding is that that had zero to do with its performace and potential, and everything to do with the restrictions placed upon it versus the competition, availability of parts and the costs associated with running it versus other less restrictive cars. Plus, you bang up an NSX and youre stuck trying to fix an aluminum car. You can bang out a Camaro to better than factory spec with a few hammers.