New NSX Confirmed!

[Zanardi 50]

Not really.

It shared major dimensions with the Prelude Si engine. And that means they could share expensive tooling setups.

Also...

They make a lot more S2000s than they do NSXs.

Darn it Jimbo, you beat me to it! Gotta.....type........faster......

 

[cxr344]

I don't know of any present or prototyped working hybrid system that can channel any appreciable percentage of wasted braking energy back into the storage system.

I could be wrong, but I remember hearing that the new Toyota Prius actually gets better gas mileage in stop & go traffic as opposed to highway driving, mainly because of regenerative braking.

I'm not sure whether or not that would constitute what you mean be an appreciable percentage of wasted breaking energy... and even if it did, an econo-box like the Prius is a far cry from an exotic sportscar. But still, it would be cool if Honda had some kind of super-secret high efficiency regenerative breaking system that they were waiting to unveil with the new NSX/HSC.

Not very likely, but you have to admit that it would definitely catch the whole industry off guard.

 

[Jimbo]

It would catch the industry off guard. Simply because it would be a major technological advance that didn't come with any advance rumblings.

The Prius and the Honda hybrids do get better mileage in stop-go driving. But take either one of these cars to a track (not the dragstrip) and run a few laps. A few reviewers have done this and that's where the problem can be found.

Oddly enough a hybrid car might be a good choice for a 1/4 miler or for occasional "street racing" from a red light. But when it comes to a roadcourse they stink.

 

[Jin1976]

Wow just imagine parking an NSX and HSC side by side is like parking 355 next to 360.

They got their Ferraris and we got our Hondas

 

[kld12]

Wow just imagine parking an NSX and HSC side by side is like parking 355 next to 360

That would be an awesome sight indeed. The 355 is classic and beautiful as is the current Nsx. The 360 is modern supermodel looking as is the Hsc. Its like Heidi Klum next to Laetitia Casta or something like that.

 

[s800]

Ryan,
...

In the end, if you drive a hybrid car aggressively (i.e. like on a racetrack) you'll quickly deplete the batteries. And then you're lugging the dead weight of the batteries, motor and controls.

-Jim

I'm talking about something capacitor based instead of batteries. You'd be storing charge instead of electrochemical energy. This is more suitable to quick uptake of braking energy.

 

[s800]

The F20C shares some cylinder dimensions with the H22 because it's also Honda, not because it's so similar in design. H22 has much more in common with the B and D series than the F20C.

How F20C is different than the H, D, and B series:

Direction of rotation
Timing chain/geartrain
Bottom ladder design (check this out sometime if you can- it's really interesting to see in person)
Purpose built for long. mounting
Head is tiny compared to any other
DOHC Honda
Head doesn't mate
New rockers
Tranny mount completely different


You could make a case it's somewhat similar to the K series, sans the timing control.

 

[NextNSX]

2002, 2003, 2004 with minor changes in head light...there is no way they will sell current nsx in 2005 ...therefore expect new HSC/NSX around this time as 2005 model...

order yours today!

 

[Jimbo]

I'm talking about something capacitor based instead of batteries. You'd be storing charge instead of electrochemical energy. This is more suitable to quick uptake of braking energy.

Yes. In theory this would be much better. There's been a number of research projects along these lines. NASA, Toyota and Okamura come to mind.

I just don't see these being ready for prime time in the near future. Just imagine the safety and practical concerns around a 50kw (1000+ watt-hours) thingamajig.

Gee...I always used to shy away from ignition coils.

 

[wctsao]

Based on Honda's past, I'm sure the HSC will produce in the 400 hp range. I must admit that even hearing that the HSC has "more than 300 hp" was disappointing.

Looking back at the previous models, their performance and pricing, I tried to get an idea of what to expect in the 2006 HSC.

Back in 1990, Acura introduced the NSX at a pretty difficult time. The Ferrari 328 was in its last year and the 348 was just introduced. Looking at the NSX engine you would have thought the 328 powerplant was the target.

89 328 (3.2L V8; 260hp @7000 rpm, 213 lb.-ft at 5500 rpm).
90 NSX (3.2L V6; 270hp @7100 rpm, 210 lb.-ft at 5300 rpm).
90 348 (3.4L V8; 300hp @7200 rpm, 238 lb.-ft at 4200 rpm).

At that time the NSX was going for around 68k. The 328 was going for around 68-74k. The 348 went for 103-110k. In terms of weight, the NSX was around 3020 lbs, and the 348 TB around 3070 lbs so the power to Weight ratio was very competitive.

Performance times were those of the Ferrari 348 (basically low 5s and quarter times in the low 14s). The NSX was actually introduced shortly after the 348.

Fast forward to 2003, the 360 is selling for around 150k-182k. The 2003 NSX price has remained the at 89k (The same price back in 97).

Now that the Honda/Acura lineup is doing ok, they can focus on the RL and NSX. I'm guessing the powerplant will probably be similar to the way the NSX was based off the 3.2L Legend engine.

As much as I like hybrid technology, I don't see it going into the next NSX. Even in a recent interview with the Honda CEO, he even said that buyers for this type of car are not concerned with fuel economy.

With that said, its most likely the HSC will use the 3.5L V6 and try to bump the power to over 400. Based on the past history of pricing, the HSC would sell for around 117k when compared to the price of a 360 Modena. That would make it cheaper than a 911 TT.

Why not use the engine in the old Acura Spice. If they can pull off 440 hp from that 3.0L engine, they should be able to get 425 hp from this 3.5L engine. Heck, I even see lines of the HSC from the Spice model. The materials in the HSC would have to be special. Back in 90, aluminum was rarely used. Maybe the HSC should use Kevlar and Carbon Fiber like in the Spice.

NSX Spice (3.0L V6; 440 hp @8500 rpm, 270 lb.-ft at 6000 rpm) - 2015 lbs. (0-60 time: 3.0 secs, 0-100 time: 6.3 secs, 1/4 time: 11 secs @130 mph)

<img src="http://tachyonic.net/nsx/pics/cd5941.jpg">

 

[White92]

I may be stirring up a hornet nest here, but why are so many people concerned about how much hp the new car will have? I mean, how many people who own the current NSX can actually take the car to the extreme limits (under control) with 290 or even 270 hp for that matter? I know there are some people on this board and elsewhere that can, but I'm sure that a majority of the owners can't and don't push the car to the limits. I'm thinking that the people who are so obsessed with the hp rating will be modifying their cars anyway. I heard this same argument on other boards when the hp rating for the new TL was announced. Everyone was acting like it was the end of the world to only have 270 hp in the car. But how many TL owners could even take full advantage of that? How many people are going to race their TL's? I posed this same question to them. How many people could take their car to the track thinking their a hard ass and push the car as hard as they could. Then take that same car and let Rhys Millen (or someone similar) take it around the track. I think he could squeeze a little more than the average joe out of the car, even with a low hp rating. Hell, most professional drivers could probably scare the crap out of you in a 92 Civic DX! I think that 270 is more than addequite to do the job that Honda designed it to do. I know that I would love to have more hp. People think we'll be a huge joke with only 300 hp. Sure the Corvette has more, as well as Ferrari, Lambo, etc... But how many of those owners are businessmen who buy the cars just because they can? Most of the ones I see are. Just my .02 cents.

 

[mlambert890]

I think 99% of the HP angst is a desire to win bench races. I also think this attitude tends to be more prevalent in the US where HP and straight line performance seem to be the only thing most people care about.

Reading through a lot of these comments I think at least a few of the folks here are simply invested in the wrong car. If all you really care about is HP bragging rights, then just buy a Viper. All of this talk about what the upcoming Corvette C6 Z06 might do for $55k, meanwhile the Viper SRT10 is delivering 500hp for $80k *today* and is far more exotic than any Vette could ever be.

Personally, I can't imagine Honda would ever engage in this ridiculous hp war with the NSX. It's just not their style. I would say that we can expect significantly improved performance with the Gen 2 NSX coupled with the typically exquisite NSX balance and driving experience. If that's not enough for you because AMG Mercedes have 1000hp and Audis are pushing 500hp, then the NSX probably isn't for you.

If the new NSX is competitive with the 911 GT3 at the track, I'd call it a success. Meanwhile, I've seen the GT3 getting criticized (here in the states of course) b/c its "hp is too low" even though it is equalling or exceeding the 911TT at the track... Go figure.

If you want to brag about big HP and rocket past ricers in the 1/4 mile, then just buy these two items:

http://www.svt.ford.com/flash/index.html

http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/ford/cobra03/cobra03.htm

Grand total $40k for 600hp and a brand new car. Sure it's a Mustang, but if big HP is what you want, it's tough to beat that value.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

I may be stirring up a hornet nest here, but why are so many people concerned about how much hp the new car will have? I mean, how many people who own the current NSX can actually take the car to the extreme limits (under control) with 290 or even 270 hp for that matter?

I think thats totally wrong.

You could easily push the car to the limits (of acceleration anyway) in everyday driving. How hard is it to downshift and floor it? If you are in the correct gear and the pedal is fully depressed, you are pushing the engine to its limits.

 

[apapada]

I think 99% of the HP angst is a desire to win bench races. I also think this attitude tends to be more prevalent in the US where HP and straight line performance seem to be the only thing most people care about.

I wholeheartly agree. If one would buy a $90K car to win bench races, his money is better spent in a Viper. But again, there is HP, RWHP and last but not least useable HP. I just would need the latter.

 

[CokerRat]

Fast forward to 2003, the 360 is selling for around 150k-182k. The 2003 NSX price has remained the at 89k (The same price back in 97).

Good points, wctsao. In fact if you look at the F355, it made 385 hp from it's 3.5L V-8 and yet the '97 NSX-T was neck-and-neck when it came to performance comparisons. The F-car may be a couple tenths quicker in the 1/4 but c'mon, for a 95 hp deficit, the NSX has always acquitted itself nicely. And when it comes to lap times, the gap is minimal.

The NSX has always outperformed what its engine rating suggests. Consider the 3.0L performance against the likes of the Supra TT (stock at 320hp) or the 3.2L versus the C5's 345hp or the F355's 385hp. A new engine with 350 hp and the same basic weight oughta perform neck and neck with a 360 Modena.

One last thing...the Z06 has undeniably changed the performance market. Anyone to whom performance at the track or dragstrip is top priority will not even consider an NSX of any vintage -- it is neither top performer nor bang-for-the-buck champ. Frankly, no amount of power is going to change that without driving the price into the stratosphere. The NSX's niche is a near-Ferrari experience with Honda precision and craftsmanship. Accept no substitutes!

 

[Rex]

Somebody tell this man what year it is

Quoted in Motor Trend: HSC Designer Toshinoba Minami, "It (HSC) is a design study going back to sports car origins," he said. "A lightweight vehicle with a compact, high powered engine. Normally you would expect to find a V-8 or V-10 engine in such a car, but we have put in a V-6 3.5-liter engine which produces as much power as either of those. 300bhp, to be precise."

 

[Rex]

Horsepower IS important. Two things sell sports cars: performance and looks. If Honda can achieve the performance with 300hp, more power to them, but I think they'd have to get the weight below 2,500 lbs to do it and I don't see that happening. Which leaves horsepower.

I'm confident that HSC will continue the NSX's tradition of being better engineered, more refined, better balanced and better built than the competition. But that alone won't sell enough cars to make the HSC a success. Not at $100K, and probably not at $60K. The exotic looks of the HSC promise performance. A supercar that can't perform is like a porn star with erectile dysfunction. What's the point?

I'm not going to spend $100K to buy a car that looks fast but gets spanked by a $30K Subaru and I don't think many other buyers will either. The HSC is billed as a sports car, a two seater, paddle shifted, mid-engine, aluminum bodied sports car. It's not a touring car, it's a performance car. IT HAS TO PERFORM. I don't care how they do it - nuclear fusion, wind sail, anti-gravity paint, or good old less weight and more horsepower - but it must equal, and hopefully exceed, the performance of its rivals or it will fail.

 

[NSX-Racer]

Coker Rat wrote: Anyone to whom performance at the track or dragstrip is top priority will not even consider an NSX of any vintage

You may be right for the dragstrip but not for the track. Even Porsche techies would tell you (when noone else can hear) that the NSX is probably the only car you can take from the factory to the track that withstands long (and fast) track distances without failing and without altering anything. Even GT 3s (at least the older versions) have to be fine tuned by the owner to reduce understeer on the track.

I saw techies from different brands that looked at the NSX suspension/chassis/double wishbone with admiration. And they still shake their heads when they see my X after about 125,000 km overall and over 20,000 track km (most with race slicks!) where I only had to change some wheel bearings but no serious hardware.

The main problem is not the car itself but the Honda marketing and distribution (at least here in europe). You hardly found (and find) any commercials for the X or special events or other kind of support. You will even have a hard time to find a dealership that ever saw a NSX, not to speak of a Honda mechanic that has even the slightest experience with the car. That also means you have less than a handful of Honda showrooms in whole Germany with at least one X in it.

Nearly no dealer has any interest here to sell one because they have to pay about 15,000 Euro in advance when they order one and their gain margin is very small (the real prices are way lower than the sticker prices).

If that doesn't change the next NSX/HSC will be as unsuccessful as the existing one, no matter how much hp it has.

 

[nsx1]

Back in 1990, Acura introduced the NSX at a pretty difficult time. The Ferrari 328 was in its last year and the 348 was just introduced. Looking at the NSX engine you would have thought the 328 powerplant was the target.

89 328 (3.2L V8; 260hp @7000 rpm, 213 lb.-ft at 5500 rpm).
90 NSX (3.2L V6; 270hp @7100 rpm, 210 lb.-ft at 5300 rpm).
90 348 (3.4L V8; 300hp @7200 rpm, 238 lb.-ft at 4200 rpm).

I'm sure it was just a typo.

 

[CokerRat]

You may be right for the dragstrip but not for the track. Even Porsche techies would tell you (when noone else can hear) that the NSX is probably the only car you can take from the factory to the track that withstands long (and fast) track distances without failing and without altering anything.

I have to disagree. You may be right about the NSX being essentially set-up from the factory to be able to race, but it's clear that's not selling cars. If I was buying a car to go showroom-stock racing, I'd buy a Z06. If I was going to buy a car, do $20K worth of racing mods, I'd still buy a Z06. Give me a huge budget for racing and I'd buy a 996 TT or a 360 Challenge. Point is, nowhere in that equation is the NSX unfortunately. As brilliant as it was years ago, it cannot run with that crowd as it is today. The Gen 2 car could be a different story -- man I hope it is. If it can run directly with the likes of the 996TT, Z06 and Viper on the track then Honda will have achieved the unimaginable.

Frankly I think 350 hp is enough to compete successfully with those cars on the track, but as has been said so many times, probably not in the minds of a large number of buyers.

If that doesn't change the next NSX/HSC will be as unsuccessful as the existing one, no matter how much hp it has.

The NSX needs to again become the functional and aesthetic equivalent of a Ferrari 360 at half the price. It appears it will have the body for the job... now will it have the speed?

 

[kgb_agent]

Horsepower IS important. Two things sell sports cars: performance and looks. If Honda can achieve the performance with 300hp, more power to them, but I think they'd have to get the weight below 2,500 lbs to do it and I don't see that happening. Which leaves horsepower.

I'm confident that HSC will continue the NSX's tradition of being better engineered, more refined, better balanced and better built than the competition. But that alone won't sell enough cars to make the HSC a success. Not at $100K, and probably not at $60K. The exotic looks of the HSC promise performance. A supercar that can't perform is like a porn star with erectile dysfunction. What's the point?

I'm not going to spend $100K to buy a car that looks fast but gets spanked by a $30K Subaru and I don't think many other buyers will either. The HSC is billed as a sports car, a two seater, paddle shifted, mid-engine, aluminum bodied sports car. It's not a touring car, it's a performance car. IT HAS TO PERFORM. I don't care how they do it - nuclear fusion, wind sail, anti-gravity paint, or good old less weight and more horsepower - but it must equal, and hopefully exceed, the performance of its rivals or it will fail.

What Rex said.

 

[Rex]

The latest info/rumor from Evo mag

Quote from Evo mag:

"Honda has resisted the temptation to over-engine the HSC. Like the NSX, it'll be powered by a V6 VTEC unit developing 'over 300bhp' although evo has learnt that the final figure is expected to be around 360bhp. Not in the Enzo's league, then, but Honda is emphasizing drivability - as it did with the NSX.”

“Although the story being put around was that the HSC is a few years away from production, a senior Honda source told evo that he expected the car to appear much sooner - possibly as early as the beginning of 2005, and largely unchanged."

**************************************************



360hp might work if they can get it light enough, but given Honda's glacial pace updating the NSX, it seems far wiser to give it enough power to remain competitive for a few years, rather than handicap it right out of the gate. And what's this about limiting horsepower to maintain drivability? AMG is stuffing 600+ in everything in Mercedes' stable, all eminently drivable. A little AI intervention will keep things under control when testosterone exceeds talent.

We don't need 600hp but unless the HSC has a negative coefficient of drag, 360hp isn't likely to set many track records. Bragging rights are critical when selling cars. Auto industry prognosticators think Honda may not be able to remain independent unless it increases its market share. I would hate to see brilliant, innovative Honda become a division of General Motors. The HSC is the halo car for the franchise, its success (or lack thereof) will rub off on every car in the line.

Ford isn't betting the company on the GT on a whim. They are trying to save the entire company with a bold (if retro) statement that captures the public's imagination and casts a glow on every F-150 and Focus on the lot. The HSC needs to be an equally bold statement. Finesse is wonderful. finesse is why we bought NSX's, but the finesse market totals about 12.000 buyers over 14 years. Car magazines don’t do cover stories on finesse. Please, Honda, give the HSC all the finesse you’ve got, but also give it the balls to compete.

Rex

 

[NetViper]

Re: The latest info/rumor from Evo mag

Quote from Evo mag:

final figure is expected to be around 360bhp. Not in the Enzo's league, then, but Honda is emphasizing drivability - as it did with the NSX.”
**************************************************
360hp might work if they can get it light enough, but given Honda's glacial pace updating the NSX, it seems far wiser to give it enough power to remain competitive for a few years, rather than handicap it right out of the gate. And what's this about limiting horsepower to maintain drivability? AMG is stuffing 600+ in everything in Mercedes' stable, all eminently drivable. A little AI intervention will keep things under control when testosterone exceeds talent.

We don't need 600hp but unless the HSC has a negative coefficient of drag, 360hp isn't likely to set many track records.

Rex

I agree... 360 is OK at best. It should be enough for a mid 12 second 1/4 mile at around 115 MPH... about the same as a Z06.. at least until the next gen car comes out with 500HP and does it in 12 flat!. In 2 years the 360HP HSC will be getting dusted by a 50K vette, the next gen 360 and a bunch of 4-door sedans!

I guess the good news is that we can add the comptech SC on there and get 460 HP and be competitive..

As far as maintain drivability... that a pile of crap... I don't see E55 owners saying their cars are undriveable... or Z06 owners, or gallardo owners.. etc..etc... There are MANY high HP cars out now that are just as "driveable" as the NSX. That just really annoys me.

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by NetViper If I-VTEC is so great.... why isn't the HSC using a V6 with I-VTEC?

I recall that the original NSX test mule tested by the magazines in 1990 had a V6 without VTEC. Of course we all know that changed for the production model. It is quite possible that many things will change between the HSC concept car and the production model, hopefully for the better.

 

[CokerRat]

Re: Re: The latest info/rumor from Evo mag

In 2 years the 360HP HSC will be getting dusted by a 50K vette, the next gen 360 and a bunch of 4-door sedans!

At this rate, in another 5 years a Corvette will do 0-60 in 3 seconds! (j/k)

This whole horsepower war, especially the sedans, has really taken off in the last couple of years. It has to plateau sometime. The supersedans have already gone well beyond common sense. If the NSX does more with less and spends more money to get there (eg. aluminum, high-strung smaller engines), is that a liability or a selling point? Sounds like most people here think it's a liability.