NEW GEN NSX in manual or auto

[naaman]

Well, actually, I wasn't talking about the sensation of Gs between shifts being "better" with a clutch/stick. Only that a DCT/PDK has no effect on the actual, measurable acceleration of the wheels themselves. G forces (that experience that makes WOT blasts so fun) are purely the result of the torque/power vs. the weight of the car.

And, if DCTs are so awesome because they eliminate shift lag, why not just skip all the "progressions" and start using CvTs in racecars/supercars so that shifting is never required and the car will always be operating at peak power (when WOT) or peak efficiency (at cruise speeds)? Why bother with individual gear ratios?

 

[JD Cross]

It doesn't matter. They don't add horsepower/torque, and therefore do not change the sensation of acceleration. Acceleration equals F/M. There is no contingency in that equation for paddle shifters. The only thing that a paddle shifter does for acceleration is eliminate/reduce the loss of speed during a gear change. It does not make the wheels turn faster, which is where the G forces pressing against the chest come from.

Acceleration is a measurement of change in velocity over time.
A vehicle only accelerates when power is being sent to the wheels resulting in a change in velocity.
When power is not going to the wheels a car also changes it's velocity but it is decelerating as stuntman says.

If a DCT reduces the time power is not being sent to the wheels then the acceleration is increased which is why DCT cars are faster.
So whether you can feel it or not the DCT car is accelerating faster.

Perhaps you are only thinking of measuring acceleration when a car is in gear and the clutch is engaged and no power interruption( shifting) is occurring.
If that's what you mean, then I agree the acceleration will be the same for either transmission until the engine redlines.

Perhaps another reason today's more powerful cars use a DCT is for safety.
I think the manufacturers have thought this out and believe with the very high power levels they are wise to offer their customers the safest driving method possible.

A driver with a 600 hp+ car driving with one hand on the wheel while pressing on a clutch pedal and working a shifter or heel and toeing and shifting is more dangerous not only to themselves but others on the road or track.
Best to have two hands on the wheel and concentrate on driving a very powerful car than worrying about heel/toeing and shifting.

Our stock/near stock NSX's aren't that fast by today's standards so less danger shifting etc. as it is with a Miata as well.

 

[naaman]

Yes. I'm talking about the purely phsyical experience-able G-Forces. I have not once disputed the fact that DCTs are faster by virtue of eliminating "shift lag" or interruption.

There are a lot of high HP cars out there that make well over 600 horsepower which are traditional manuals... as for their safety... well, I can't comment with any degree of expertise or authority, so I won't. I'll tend to agree with you on the reasons for DCT being the "next thing."

 

[whiteNSXs]

Yes. I'm talking about the purely phsyical experience-able G-Forces. I have not once disputed the fact that DCTs are faster by virtue of eliminating "shift lag" or interruption.

There are a lot of high HP cars out there that make well over 600 horsepower which are traditional manuals... as for their safety... well, I can't comment with any degree of expertise or authority, so I won't. I'll tend to agree with you on the reasons for DCT being the "next thing."

You keep changing your argument points to avoid further discussions of your claims. Please clarify some of your statements earlier and answer as they are. How do you claim that a DCT is quicker in acceleration but the driver will not sense the difference but only would register on a clock? Yeah, I called that absurd.
What DCT cars did you drive? You kept using the word G-force to describe your "sensation", what exactly do you mean by the g-force? You said all you care in driving was the sensation of the G-force. Did you mean all you care was the straight line acceleration? I do not use the term G-force at all as I find the term misleading and non-scientific. So is your G-force sensation describing the jerking sensations of the actual clutch in/power off/seizing acceleration/deceleration transitions to clutch-out/power back on in a lower RPM/higher gear, rather than the sensation of the force pushing your back forward? If I did not clarify before I would like to clarify now that the 4 PDK Porsches that I drove at Sears Point were all driven in full automatic modes. I did not once use the paddles. For just the straightline acceleration of the Cayman S, I can only say "holy mother" when I floored the throttle and I had to back off. It was quicker than any of my NSX including my CTSC NSX. Of course this "holy mother" thing is not documented with a clock but by the seat of the pants. If your sensation is so limited to just A=F/M, then perhaps jumping down 2 stairs would have the same sensation as jumping off a cliff given the acceleration is indeed a big G according to your rationale. In your ever so clear and primitive formula of sensation, I supposed speed and momentum have no roles. My sensations of driving a car are a little more complicated and usually are summations of many vectors, and I do mean VECTORS. Don't get me wrong. I love my current 3.2 hardtop NSX and likely would not part with it. But this PDK/DCT things opened a can of "worms" for me as I now have experienced it and think that it is a rightful tranny for the NSX. How about just go out to actually drive a DCT car? BTW, paddle shifters do not necessarily mean DCT. They are 2 different things. Then again, one can always defend all point by saying that it boils down to just the big "preference". But I am not asking clarifications of YOUR preference which is quite clear. So how does a quicker car feels no quicker to the driver again when A=F/M?
Steve

 

[stuntman]

Yes. I'm talking about the purely phsyical experience-able G-Forces. I have not once disputed the fact that DCTs are faster by virtue of eliminating "shift lag" or interruption.

There are a lot of high HP cars out there that make well over 600 horsepower which are traditional manuals... as for their safety... well, I can't comment with any degree of expertise or authority, so I won't. I'll tend to agree with you on the reasons for DCT being the "next thing."

IMO the "G-forces" felt during an upshift on DCT is pretty impressive since there is no power interruption and the engine is immediately dragged from redline to a couple thousand RPMs lower in the next gear -chirping tires at each upshift.

How many cars can you list that have over 600hp and have traditional manuals? Torque is the limiting factor for current DCTs which is why you don't see them yet in high torque big displacement cars. A Viper WILL be faster with DCT though. CVT would probably be ideal if the technology permits, however they have issues with power and torque and are complex and not as durable compared to DCT. Another advantage of DCT is more gears, until the corvette came out with a 7spd manual.

 

[RYU]

IMO the "G-forces" felt during an upshift on DCT is pretty impressive since there is no power interruption and the engine is immediately dragged from redline to a couple thousand RPMs lower in the next gear -chirping tires at each upshift.

I always wonder how that "shock" translates to longevity in a street car. Thats a lot of force on an engine to have to change rpms that quickly and that violently. I'm thinking cams, gears, valves, crank main bearings.. etc.

 

[butter78]

I always wonder how that "shock" translates to longevity in a street car. Thats a lot of force on an engine to have to change rpms that quickly and that violently. I'm thinking cams, gears, valves, crank main bearings.. etc.

Negative impact in most cases.... But then driving too easy can be bad too..

 

[stuntman]

I always wonder how that "shock" translates to longevity in a street car. Thats a lot of force on an engine to have to change rpms that quickly and that violently. I'm thinking cams, gears, valves, crank main bearings.. etc.

I wouldn't say it would be too much different than dropping the clutch on each upshift on a manual transmission. For a street car, you are not shifting at redline like that each time you shift. Plus BMW has done alot and are now bolting the diff directly to the unibody rather than the subframe.

 

[whiteNSXs]

I wouldn't say it would be too much different than dropping the clutch on each upshift on a manual transmission. For a street car, you are not shifting at redline like that each time you shift. Plus BMW has done alot and are now bolting the diff directly to the unibody rather than the subframe.

Same here. If anything, the DCT electronics probably will rev match much better up or downshift than a full manual, hence minimize the clutch wears. In fact, when I was driving the PDK on the track on full automatic mode, the car did not jerk at all entering or exiting corners but it was always in the right gears.
Steve

 

[fastaussie]

I'd completely agree with stuntman and whiteNSXs, the electronics systems in these modern cars are much, much easier on the hardware than any human would be.

Ferrari claims zero maintenance on the transmission in the 458. no fluid changes, no clutch replacement, nothing. it is a completely sealed unit designed and claimed to last the "life of the car."

- - - Updated - - -

there will always be some people who just want their 6-speed manual shifter in between the seats, fair enough. unfortunately for those of you who prefer it, the choices are getting more and more limited each and every day.

for the others who are on the fence, get out and drive a modern DCT car (Ferrari or Porsche) and let me know if you feel you've lost any feel, connection or enjoyment from the driving experience. 99% of you will be surprised...

 

[butter78]

I'd completely agree with stuntman and whiteNSXs, the electronics systems in these modern cars are much, much easier on the hardware than any human would be.

Ferrari claims zero maintenance on the transmission in the 458. no fluid changes, no clutch replacement, nothing. it is a completely sealed unit designed and claimed to last the "life of the car."

- - - Updated - - -

there will always be some people who just want their 6-speed manual shifter in between the seats, fair enough. unfortunately for those of you who prefer it, the choices are getting more and more limited each and every day.

for the others who are on the fence, get out and drive a modern DCT car (Ferrari or Porsche) and let me know if you feel you've lost any feel, connection or enjoyment from the driving experience. 99% of you will be surprised...

But all clutches wear...

 

[fastaussie]

you'll have to talk to Ferrari about that one. :wink:

but after 4 years in the 458 and a few more in the California, they seem to be holding up very well...

 

[naaman]

You keep changing your argument points to avoid further discussions of your claims. Please clarify some of your statements earlier and answer as they are. How do you claim that a DCT is quicker in acceleration but the driver will not sense the difference but only would register on a clock? Yeah, I called that absurd.
What DCT cars did you drive? You kept using the word G-force to describe your "sensation", what exactly do you mean by the g-force? You said all you care in driving was the sensation of the G-force. Did you mean all you care was the straight line acceleration? I do not use the term G-force at all as I find the term misleading and non-scientific. So is your G-force sensation describing the jerking sensations of the actual clutch in/power off/seizing acceleration/deceleration transitions to clutch-out/power back on in a lower RPM/higher gear, rather than the sensation of the force pushing your back forward? If I did not clarify before I would like to clarify now that the 4 PDK Porsches that I drove at Sears Point were all driven in full automatic modes. I did not once use the paddles. For just the straightline acceleration of the Cayman S, I can only say "holy mother" when I floored the throttle and I had to back off. It was quicker than any of my NSX including my CTSC NSX. Of course this "holy mother" thing is not documented with a clock but by the seat of the pants. If your sensation is so limited to just A=F/M, then perhaps jumping down 2 stairs would have the same sensation as jumping off a cliff given the acceleration is indeed a big G according to your rationale. In your ever so clear and primitive formula of sensation, I supposed speed and momentum have no roles. My sensations of driving a car are a little more complicated and usually are summations of many vectors, and I do mean VECTORS. Don't get me wrong. I love my current 3.2 hardtop NSX and likely would not part with it. But this PDK/DCT things opened a can of "worms" for me as I now have experienced it and think that it is a rightful tranny for the NSX. How about just go out to actually drive a DCT car? BTW, paddle shifters do not necessarily mean DCT. They are 2 different things. Then again, one can always defend all point by saying that it boils down to just the big "preference". But I am not asking clarifications of YOUR preference which is quite clear. So how does a quicker car feels no quicker to the driver again when A=F/M?
Steve

Steve,

First, I'm not trying to avoid anything. I'm not even really trying to prove anything. I'm just explaining why I like what I like. I don't really care what is fastest or what is newer or what is cooler. And I especially don't really care because the DCTs and PDKs are on cars that I will almost certainly never have the financial wherwithal to acquire (and even if I did, I'd likely never be willing to spend that much money just to get into any one car). As I said at first, I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. A DCT/PDK is faster. I don't dispute that. I never once said I drove a DCT car ever. I said I've driven paddle shift cars (or, buttons, if your prefer) one on a Camaro, one on a 911 (996). Boring. I also said that the activity of rowing through gears is something I enjoy, regardless of whether it is "slower" than current supercar technology. There are plenty of people who would rather drive an ITB NSX with ~400 horsepower than a 600+ horsepower turbo NSX simply because they prefer the NA set up. Who cares if its "slower"? Not those guys.

Please, why don't you explain to me, how, while IN GEAR (any one gear, you pick, from idle to redline) is a DCT any faster than any other transmission, all other things being equal. Because obviously, I must be ignorant as to the "magic" involved with the DCT that somehow makes a 600 horsepower car achieve escape velocity with it's magical seamless shifting. /sarcasm

As for cars that exceed 600 horsepower with a traditional manual, I was referrring to aftermarket deals, although the Viper and ZR-1 (and new Z06) are some examples of off-the-showroom-floor three-pedal cars.

Stuntman, I understand that the immediate uptake from one gear to the next may very well present an awesome experience... although, I will say that the more seamless my shifts in my stick car, the less "pull" I feel when the next gear engages... it's more of a smooth continuation of the same acceleration (more or less), but, with no specific experience to draw upon in a DCT for comparison, I must defer.

 

[whiteNSXs]

Steve,

First, I'm not trying to avoid anything. I'm not even really trying to prove anything. I'm just explaining why I like what I like. I don't really care what is fastest or what is newer or what is cooler. And I especially don't really care because the DCTs and PDKs are on cars that I will almost certainly never have the financial wherwithal to acquire (and even if I did, I'd likely never be willing to spend that much money just to get into any one car). As I said at first, I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. A DCT/PDK is faster. I don't dispute that. I never once said I drove a DCT car ever. I said I've driven paddle shift cars (or, buttons, if your prefer) one on a Camaro, one on a 911 (996). Boring. I also said that the activity of rowing through gears is something I enjoy, regardless of whether it is "slower" than current supercar technology. There are plenty of people who would rather drive an ITB NSX with ~400 horsepower than a 600+ horsepower turbo NSX simply because they prefer the NA set up. Who cares if its "slower"? Not those guys.

Please, why don't you explain to me, how, while IN GEAR (any one gear, you pick, from idle to redline) is a DCT any faster than any other transmission, all other things being equal. Because obviously, I must be ignorant as to the "magic" involved with the DCT that somehow makes a 600 horsepower car achieve escape velocity with it's magical seamless shifting. /sarcasm

As for cars that exceed 600 horsepower with a traditional manual, I was referrring to aftermarket deals, although the Viper and ZR-1 (and new Z06) are some examples of off-the-showroom-floor three-pedal cars.

Stuntman, I understand that the immediate uptake from one gear to the next may very well present an awesome experience... although, I will say that the more seamless my shifts in my stick car, the less "pull" I feel when the next gear engages... it's more of a smooth continuation of the same acceleration (more or less), but, with no specific experience to draw upon in a DCT for comparison, I must defer.

See, what have I been talking about? You just made all these false assumptions about DCT and have nothing to back it up. And now you just revealed that not only did you not drive one, you did not even know how it works to make the car quicker. I am still asking you how you claimed that a quicker car would not feel quicker to the driver but only can be clocked. The sensation of speed is not just from the acceleration itself which you have repeatedly and ignorantly stated and it is the basis of your argument. If what you said were true, a roller coaster would be boring as hell and should not even exist in the first place.

There you go.

"Please, why don't you explain to me, how, while IN GEAR (any one gear, you pick, from idle to redline) is a DCT any faster than any other transmission, all other things being equal. Because obviously, I must be ignorant as to the "magic" involved with the DCT that somehow makes a 600 horsepower car achieve escape velocity with it's magical seamless shifting. /sarcasm "


First of all, there are 7 gears in a PDK. 6 close ratio and one tall 7th gear. NO ONE drives in one single gear, so your question is already irrelevant either in DCT or full manual. In a run, say a 1/4 mile, to experience your "G-force" ( your term, not mine), it consists of sequential pushings of the car through several gears. The PDK shifts at 0.1 second which minimizes the interuptions of acceleration. With your preferred full manual, a shift is much longer which translates to longer interruption of power and dropping of rpm. The result is a shorter run time and higher trap speed for the PDK. THAT's the sensation that you claimed would not be felt. Cayman S 6 speed is generally clocked at 4.8 seconds and 4.1 seconds with the PDK. If you don't think it would give you the sensation that I get, I don't think I have any kind words for you.
Steve

 

[docjohn]

lol Steve........safe to say you were impressed by your demo day......Thats why I refrain from driving these new fangled dual clutch doohickies .....plus I like the smell of burning clutch disc in the morning....smells like acceleration....:tongue:

 

[butter78]

lol Steve........safe to say you were impressed by your demo day......Thats why I refrain from driving these new fangled dual clutch doohickies .....plus I like the smell of burning clutch disc in the morning....smells like acceleration....:tongue:

Loooool

 

[stuntman]

Those paddleshift automatics you drove are horrid and do not compare to the performance or feel of a DCT, however AMG's locking torque converter automatics aren't bad either.

You are correct that while in gear, a DCT is no faster than a manual, however DCTs usually have shorter tighter gear ratios and more gears than their optional manual, which isn't apples:apples but in the real world, does make them faster while in gear.

Even your smooth seamless upshifts (even if fast) likely cause the car to actually decelerate a mph or two briefly compared to the constant acceleration of a DCT or automatic shift. Throw a datalogger on and you'll see this mph loss.

DCT is the way of the future, like hybrids, turbos, direct injection, fuel injection, synchronizers, power steering, etc... Whether people like it or not that's where things are headed.

 

[RYU]

The locking 6AT in my BRZ is pretty decent also.

 

[stuntman]

You didn't tell me it was an auto! Lol

How's the m3?

 

[whiteNSXs]

lol Steve........safe to say you were impressed by your demo day......Thats why I refrain from driving these new fangled dual clutch doohickies .....plus I like the smell of burning clutch disc in the morning....smells like acceleration....:tongue:

Doc,
Several years ago, my college roomates and I had a reunion in Irving, Ca. Elbert brought his 2010 GTR and all three of us went for a ride with probably about 600 lbs in the car. He did a few short runs probably no more than 5 seconds each, Ted and I were so stunned that we were giggling like little boys. I figured the GTR had 500 hp, and the brutal acceleration was from the engine. After driving the Cayman S with PDK, I realized the amazing runs were significantly contributed by the DCT. These "automatic" transmissions virtually fix all the shortcomings of a full manual. Then again, one can always say that they "prefer" the old stuff as a personal choice but don't give me that pseudo-intellectual-wannabe physics analysis. I still drive my 1989 Carrera and two 928s frequently as I PREFER driving them. Their performances are CLEARLY not up to par against the newer cars and I certainly will not go around and claim that they are as good as the modern cars. They win my garage spaces purely on nostalgia. But if I have to run for my life, the DCT would be the top choice.
You should just try them.
Steve

 

[QUICKIE]

This car will show up in a few years, lmao

 

[RYU]

You didn't tell me it was an auto! Lol

How's the m3?

lol yes, i'm a big wuss. I ruptured my achilles long ago so I can't daily a clutch I'm quite impressed with this 6AT though. It's about 150% better than any other Torque converter i've driven and for street/track it's about 90% of a stick. I mean.. the "Sport" mode shifting algorithm is so good it preselects gears better than I could with perfect rev matches all the time. On the street it granny shifts well enough to maximize mpgs. Tuning is pretty good. If it was a DCT it'd be amazing.

M3 is still getting maintenance work. It's a clean car but it was ignored towards the end on maintenance. I'll send you pics of the rear shock mount. OH MY lol. I also found a X- brace for $70. I love these e36 prices! These mods would have cost 5-10x more on the NSX.

 

[stuntman]

Drive a C63. I still have a bit of buyers remorse for going with the M3 instead, however I might get my torque fix soon.

What's the mpg of your BRZ? I'm getting 21-23 mix hard driving with injectors, manifold, and cams in my e36. I think I was around 25 stock. And the V8 is 16-17 lol.

You don't need to drive a Ferrari to experience DCT. The VW CC and many BMWs (Z4, 3-series, etc...) have them but these budget DCT cars aren't quite as good from a programming and execution standpoint as those found in the M3, M5, GTR, Porsche PDKs, Ferraris, etc... but they aren't bad.

 

[naaman]

See, what have I been talking about? You just made all these false assumptions about DCT and have nothing to back it up. And now you just revealed that not only did you not drive one, you did not even know how it works to make the car quicker. I am still asking you how you claimed that a quicker car would not feel quicker to the driver but only can be clocked. The sensation of speed is not just from the acceleration itself which you have repeatedly and ignorantly stated and it is the basis of your argument. If what you said were true, a roller coaster would be boring as hell and should not even exist in the first place.

There you go.

"Please, why don't you explain to me, how, while IN GEAR (any one gear, you pick, from idle to redline) is a DCT any faster than any other transmission, all other things being equal. Because obviously, I must be ignorant as to the "magic" involved with the DCT that somehow makes a 600 horsepower car achieve escape velocity with it's magical seamless shifting. /sarcasm "


First of all, there are 7 gears in a PDK. 6 close ratio and one tall 7th gear. NO ONE drives in one single gear, so your question is already irrelevant either in DCT or full manual. In a run, say a 1/4 mile, to experience your "G-force" ( your term, not mine), it consists of sequential pushings of the car through several gears. The PDK shifts at 0.1 second which minimizes the interuptions of acceleration. With your preferred full manual, a shift is much longer which translates to longer interruption of power and dropping of rpm. The result is a shorter run time and higher trap speed for the PDK. THAT's the sensation that you claimed would not be felt. Cayman S 6 speed is generally clocked at 4.8 seconds and 4.1 seconds with the PDK. If you don't think it would give you the sensation that I get, I don't think I have any kind words for you.
Steve

Okay. I'll shut up now.

 

[butter78]

Lol