Need some guidance on suspension set ups

[Wavey1]

Has anyone here took an early model and installed 02+ shocks and springs on their cars? For some reason or another the 02 looks like a more perfect ride height versus the jacked up 91 models. What is the difference of the shock and springs?

I just did this on my '92, using '04 units with <12K miles on them. I'm very surprised that the car actually sits HIGHER. Makes no sense, but it's at least 1/2" higher than it was on the worn-out (136K miles) original units. Maybe even 3/4". It rides and handles a ton better, but the stance is killing me. I'm thinking about going to Bilsteins with these newer springs on the lower perch. I'd rather do shorter springs on the newer shocks, but everything currently available will lower it more than I want. The original springs had sagged enough that the ride height was pretty good, just want to get back to that or a little lower.

Swift springs sound about perfect (-.8" front, -.6" rear), but are NLA. EDIT: Found a set on eBay ($500!)... has anyone run these on OEM shock? I had a set of S springs, wish I hadn't let them go.

 

[Jinks]

Update:
After about a weeks worth of eating tacos at any and everywhere I can get them, I think I FINALLY found the BC sweet spot at 26 clicks. I am also possibly considering getting the swift springs and longer threaded shock bodies for the front. I need literally like 1/8" height in the front and I am already at max. The Michelin pss really do improve the ride like I have never felt before. Granted they ain't R comps but they are a awesome all around summer time. The steering improvement is ridiculous. Point where you wanna go and the car aims like a marksman.
But I am also still thinking of going KW V3 within the next year or so. I just don't want to keep sinking money into the car but I want it to be an all around performance car. I recently removed my lower nsxr chassis bar. Man! Why did I put that thing in anyway? It drives way better without it. Plus it basically made sweet metal on metal love with my stock sway bar which I could always hear.

 

[nice_tan]

Good info here guys! Anyone know if we got a vendor or if there's any special deal on BC coilovers w/ swift spring upgrade? Looked around and everywhere seems to be around $1315 ($995+$320). Worth a shot before I make my order.

 

[Wavey1]

I just got a set of Swifts for OEM shock replacements and Evasive Motorsports had the best price by far.

 

[Jinks]

[MENTION=25720]Wavey1[/MENTION] So you got swift lowering springs for the later model shocks? If so, can you please post ride height pics and give spring rates/lowering rates.
Thanks.

 

[Wavey1]

@Wavey1 So you got swift lowering springs for the later model shocks? If so, can you please post ride height pics and give spring rates/lowering rates.
Thanks.

Yes, see my post above. I just installed a set of '04 OEM suspension units but the ride height is really high. Going with the Swifts:

Front .08" lower, 146 to 218 pound/in progressive rate, averages to 11.2% stiffer than the '04 OEM springs by my calculations.

Rear .06" lower, 157 to 258 pound/in, progressive, averages to 15.2% stiffer than '04.

The '04 springs are already a bit stiffer than the '92 springs, about 15% stiffer front and about 1% stiffer rear.

The Swifts keep about the same front-rear percentages too, about 88%.

I just got them, will be a while before I have time to install but I will post pics. I expect the ride height to be about the same as my sagging original '92 springs were, probably a slightly more nose-down attitude.

 

[Jinks]

Yes, see my post above. I just installed a set of '04 OEM suspension units but the ride height is really high. Going with the Swifts:

Front .08" lower, 146 to 218 pound/in progressive rate, averages to 11.2% stiffer than the '04 OEM springs by my calculations.

Rear .06" lower, 157 to 258 pound/in, progressive, averages to 15.2% stiffer than '04.

The '04 springs are already a bit stiffer than the '92 springs, about 15% stiffer front and about 1% stiffer rear.

The Swifts keep about the same front-rear percentages too, about 88%.

I just got them, will be a while before I have time to install but I will post pics. I expect the ride height to be about the same as my sagging original '92 springs were, probably a slightly more nose-down attitude.

Cool yeah, I remembered you telling me you swapped to late model suspension which increased ride height. Will be very good to see final install. A part of me still wants to upgrade the BC, or buy KW, but still in the back of my mind I do not think or can I be convinced by anyone that they would be better then oem to suite,"my needs".... Non track use, more for driving enjoyment, and keeping my cavity fillings from falling out.
I get wicked snap oversteer over bumps with the BC's. Taking off the Nsx-r lower radiator brace really improved it though.

 

[Wavey1]

I think your thoughts are right on for your driving needs. I've modified the suspension on most of my cars over the years and, generally, the "track" set-up is too much for even aggressive everyday driving. Usually somewhere in the range of 20% - 30% stiffer on springs (or torsion bars on earlier Porsches), and the same on sway bars, and better damping (especially rebound) seems to take most cars where I like them. One of those cases where more isn't necessarily better.

 

[RYU]

The snap oversteer is partially caused by a lack of controlled damping. You have to be quicker at catching it. Unfortunately.... Been there.

The OEM dampers on stock springs or even Bilsteins will improve it. Lowering springs on stock dampers will cause a higher rate of wear on the shocks but they will "work" for a short while before they blow out.

Better dampers yet will actually make and oversteer situation enjoyable since it becomes predictable and controllable nearer to the limits.

 

[Wavey1]

I generally agree, but the difference with Swift is they claim to limit the amount of lowering to stay within the range of the OEM shock travel. Front is lowered .8", rears .6", which is a lot less than the typical 1.5" amount. They're also quite a bit stiffer at the compressed end of their progressive range, so you may not get any more total compression than with the stock springs. At least that's how I'm seeing it. If they blow out I'll just go to Bilsteins, although I've had problems with them "clicking" on other cars. Konis are too harsh for a road car IMO.

 

[nice_tan]

I got quoted $1400 + Shipping @ Evasive Motorsports. Seems like $1315 is best deal so far.

 

[Jinks]

I think your thoughts are right on for your driving needs. I've modified the suspension on most of my cars over the years and, generally, the "track" set-up is too much for even aggressive everyday driving. Usually somewhere in the range of 20% - 30% stiffer on springs (or torsion bars on earlier Porsches), and the same on sway bars, and better damping (especially rebound) seems to take most cars where I like them. One of those cases where more isn't necessarily better.

The way I see it, tracks are as smooth as possible so non compliance parts can be used. On the street it is a completely different ball game. I also agree with Coz about how most people who make suspension upgrades will never even come close to actually utilizing them. Also, what Billy says about how people do not know that suspension is a tricky game. You can't just throw new coil overs on without having to address all the issues that come with it. Your changing the suspensions geometry. I realize that now. Which is a route I do not wish to go down anymore. I don't want non compliance parts, stiffer sway bars, constant adjusting, etc. Just looking for a mild ride with enough performance for the street.
The nsx is really good on the track with tons of upgrades. But so is any car with that much suspension work done to it.
I get the same rush driving the car wheather or not I placed first or last. I am going to just buy all new oem shocks, oem top hats, and lowering springs. But to future BC buyers, I hope you understand that if you do not track the car, this is NOT an upgrade. I wouldn't even come close to calling it that....

- - - Updated - - -

The snap oversteer is partially caused by a lack of controlled damping. You have to be quicker at catching it. Unfortunately.... Been there.

The OEM dampers on stock springs or even Bilsteins will improve it. Lowering springs on stock dampers will cause a higher rate of wear on the shocks but they will "work" for a short while before they blow out.

Better dampers yet will actually make and oversteer situation enjoyable since it becomes predictable and controllable nearer to the limits.

I am waffling Ryu. Sometimes the BC's are okay. But sometimes they are not. Screw it, I am going back to oem....:biggrin:
Also, I know that a stiffer chassis is good. But I am just wondering about how removing the lower nsxr chassis bar improved my ride comfort? Maybe because it was rubbing on the oem sway bar the whole time?

 

[robbiedawg]

Which lowering springs did you decide on?

 

[Jinks]

Which lowering springs did you decide on?

If you are referring to me Robbie, I have not yet decided on swift or Tein... I need the extra height up front for my 225/35/18 pss tires with oem liners. So I am leaning towards Tein.

- - - Updated - - -

For example... See this video. Two chaps who lost their life hitting a bump at 200 mph in a Aventador....
'but yet I have seen modified Audi's on the autobahn reach much higher speeds and float across bumps...https://youtu.be/WUgoNSq8Ybg

 

[robbiedawg]

yes,Jinks, that was me,just curious. the Tein S-Techs have worked well for me.

 

[Jinks]

yes,Jinks, that was me,just curious. the Tein S-Techs have worked well for me.

Wanna trade yours for my BC's? Lol...

 

[datvince]

I've been on the fence on this topic for a couple of weeks. From what I've been reading from this thread and others, Bilstein ride comfort seems subjective, and some people have different experiences with noises. Springs look to be the simplest option, but I would also look into replacing the OEM with a new set. I get a fair share of rattle with my current OEM shocks on these SF bay area roads. Jinks, where are you picking up a new set?

Here's some pics of how my car sits now:

 

[robbiedawg]

Wanna trade yours for my BC's? Lol...

throw in the supercharger?

 

[Jinks]

I've been on the fence on this topic for a couple of weeks. From what I've been reading from this thread and others, Bilstein ride comfort seems subjective, and some people have different experiences with noises. Springs look to be the simplest option, but I would also look into replacing the OEM with a new set. I get a fair share of rattle with my current OEM shocks on these SF bay area roads. Jinks, where are you picking up a new set?

Here's some pics of how my car sits now:

Hello @datvince. I do not think I have seen you post here before. Anyways, welcome.... Your car looks great! I think you could use maybe just a hair lower on the front. But as I mentioned in other posts, lowering our cars suspension is a tricky game. Or at least it was in my own experience. I am learning here myself and I am not a track racer so please just look at this as my opinion. I lowered my own car on BC coils and along came a plethora of issues with it. Such as, ball joints knocked loose, suspension bits rubbing together, shocks bottoming out, sway bars being knocked out of calibration, etc. Not saying the Nsx has no room for improvement on the suspension, but how far are you willing to go? I am only saying that once you change one thing another is adversely affected. I like simplicity. But more importantly, I like to actually drive the car on the street! Which is why I have just recently removed almost all of my aftermarket parts(minus the ctsc and rg3 wheels) and gone back to Oem...
As for your request of the best bargain to obtain Oem Acura parts, please see www.acurapartsforless.com. They are the absolute lowest price I have ever found and I have be undoing someone's quest for aftermarket mortality for years now restoring my own nsx from cheap ass aftermarket parts. Also, use a promo code 5nsx for 5% off their already lowest prices in the U.S.
I ordered the 02-05 shocks which as @docjohn says are dampered lighter than the 91 years. The cheapest I got them for was about 210$ each shock.
The earlier models run much, much higher costs.
A small price to pay over an after market peice of junk that fixes 1 problem and causes 5 others in my opinion. Hope this helps you in your quest for your needs.
The Kw V3 are just about 1,000 dollars out of reach from all new Oem shocks with lowering springs. However, for me I do not wish to spend hours tuning them or deal with unwanted noise as I do not track the car. I also do not understand how everyone replaces our cars greatest feat, "the suspesion" with aftermarket parts... But yet, anything else with the car, everyone always says to stay Oem? Confusious say, "buy Oem"

- - - Updated - - -

throw in the supercharger?

Do you know how long I begged Shad to get it back? no way!:biggrin:

 

[Wavey1]

I ordered the 02-05 shocks which as @docjohn says are dampered lighter than the 91 years.

I think the later shocks are actually damped a little firmer than earlier cars; spring rates are a bit firmer too. None of that is a bad thing but as I said, the '04 shocks I installed on my '92 are making the ride height unacceptably high (hence the Swift springs I have waiting to install). I have a chart on the OEM spring and shock rates on another computer and will post that later.

Otherwise I agree with all your comments above! I've tweaked the suspension on a number of cars over the years (Porsches, BMWs, Saabs, etc.) with great results, but the X is a different animal.

EDIT: Here's the chart. This shows the compression/rebound on the '97-on shocks being a little tighter than the '92 units. Same for spring rates.

 

[stuntman]

Can you clarify jinks - did you say you bottom out the BCs over bumps, and/or you can't raise the car enough?

 

[Jinks]

Can you clarify jinks - did you say you bottom out the BCs over bumps, and/or you can't raise the car enough?

I am at the highest ride height available on the BC up front which is already way lower than the Oem set up even at highest height. These things are built for extreme lowering.It took me about a year to figure out how not to bottom out/have my tire hit the fender. Even at full stiffness if I hit a dip in the road at high speed, you could hear the tire whack the fender. Same thing on my new wider tire set up but I have it pretty much dialed in so that tire/fender rubbing is minimal and only at extreme driving. I have some smashed up fenders from using BC coils.
The difference now is, running full stiffness on my Nitto tires was dreadful but running full stiffness on the Michelin is completely different and comfortable.
I remember when I bolted on th BC coil overs the shock was so much shorter than Oem that I had to adjust the tie rods just to get the car to drive. The drivers side wheel went left and the passenger side went right. Soon after that, the front sway bar shifted and made contact with other parts and some rear ball joints got knocked loose. Luckily the nuts on the ball joints are held on by pins! Also the Oem sway bar carved channels into my type r lower chassis bar.
Just some of the many many reasons I am going back to Oem.

 

[robbiedawg]

Jinks, my personal approach to mods is very conservative. if I have a car like the NSX that some very smart and experienced engineers put a lot of time and effort into setting up, i don't change what they did lightly. this causes me to put a lot of time into researching and thinking (and sometimes overthinking) about the few things i have changed.
before i went to the 17/18 wheels i did lots of reading on here,and some of the experts like Angus, stuntman and Ben gave me a comfort level that steering feel and handling would be improved by the wider tires and stance. i felt that here newer technology was better,and with the superlight wheels, it was 3-4 lb. lighter per corner than my oem 16/17's. i probably wouldn't have started thinking about bigger wheels if the 16/17 tire choices weren't getting so scarce, so it was partly a gamble on the future that 17/18 tires would be easier to find.
i chose the Tein S-Tech springs because they are very close to stock in feel, but would give a bit of lowering which would go well with the new wheels.
what i'm saying in a long-winded way is that I agree with you about mostly staying oem.
thinking about this reminds me of the great Gordon Murray article. he is the McLaren Formula 1 designer who used the NSX as his benchmark in designing his street McLaren F1, then owned an NSX for years. Some highlights:

...the NSX's ride quality and handling would become our new design target...the NSX's most special quality has long been overlooked."The NSX's suspension is amazing." It's lightweight, tough, yet compliant.The NSX's suspension is truly an ingenious system, and back then I imagined the development costs must have been enormous.

here'e the whole article, highly recommended for those that haven't read it-
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/gordon-murray-on-the-honda-nsx-1495548371

 

[jwmelvin]

BC on full stiff? How could you expect that to work well. It will be highly overdamped. I get that you're doing it in an attempt to solve another problem but it will add a new problem in doing so.

And, in my view, ridding in a car with KW makes one realize that there is room for improvement in the OEM dampers.

 

[stuntman]

How are you adjusting the ride height? Do you raise the threaded spring perch or the lower threaded body? Can you take your wheel off and take a picture of your damper to show where your spring perch heights are?