Need some clutch help, hard shifting, clutch engaging way early

[Malibu Rapper]

I used the search and now I'm confused. I thought it could have been the slave but it looks unlikely now.

Here's what happened. I was driving hard today, took 3rd gear over 100. I noticed after I revved 3rd really high (8000 RPM range), I couldn't shift into 4th or 5th (95 NSX). I pull off of the freeway and can barely engage into 1st, I grind into 2nd. I grind into 3rd.

I stop for a light and I can't even go back into 1st. So I turn off my car for a while to let it cool. I start it up in neutral and cannot shift into 1st. I start it off in 1st and without even letting go of the clutch it dies. I let it cool for another 15 mins. I start it off in 1st, it gets ready to die but I decide to let it catch, give it some gas and drive it home.

I look under the car once it gets home and see no leakage at all. I switched to Redline several months ago without any problems except 1 when I was replacing the fluid. I loosened a bolt that I had to remove with a 1/2" ratchet by mistake. Some fluid spilled out, I didn't think it was a big deal. But I replaced the rest of the fluid with Redline MT90.

At this point, the car has been off for nearly 2 hours and I don't want to test it again. Any ideas on what's going on here? I can't go to any gear. When I let out on the clutch, it seems like its already engaged well earlier than normal. The clutch pedal does not fall to the floor. I have several Acura dealers nearby and if this is a part failure, I can check which one has it in advance before towing my car there.

Let me know, thanks!

 

[blknsxnoc]

Hey Malibu,

I had the same symptoms that you mentioned on my Toyota truck. I had a leak in the hydraulic line for the clutch and the fluid was waay low and eventually empty. I would definitely check that.

Plus I know that on NSXs, if there is a leak in the master slave cylinder, the leak would be in the driver side floorboard where the clutch pedal meets the firewall and not necessarily leaking on the floor of your garage.

Hope that this helps.

 

[hlweyl]

Yeah sounds like the master/slave cylinder. The master usually leaks by your feet like the earlier poster wrote and the slave is mounted on the tranny. When my slave went bad, there were no signs of leakage on my floor either.

Good luck

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Do you have any idea which clutch is in the car now?? Rebuilt, new OEM? Mileage??

If your pedal feels normal, and no leaks, and full clutch reservior, I would suspect you have broken a spring tang off one of the clutch disks and the clutch will no longer fully disengage. If so, it is time for a clutch.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[drew]

trans problems

Can you shift through the gears without the engine running?
With engine running, does the trans gear mesh noise eventually
stop with the pedal down?
From your description: it doesn't sound good.

Where you located in Malibu? I'm at Piuma and can can stop by for a quick check...

Is it just me: Or is NOBODY else concerned with an "accidental" bolt removal??? 1/2" Bolt? Gawd I hope he means 3/8" for the drain plug. If not, which bolt please?

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Thanks for the replies. I have a pretty new clutch, about 15k miles on it and it was done by an Acura dealership, all stock. I don't have a jack at this residence to check the fluid and the car is undrivable now so it's off to the Acura dealership I go with the tow truck.

 

[nsxexotic]

A new OEM clutch... is your master and slave original? how much mileage is on the car?

 

[hlweyl]

BTW, you can check the clutch hydraulic fluid without a jack. It is under the front hood, it's next to the brake fluid resevior.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

The 1/2" bolt I removed by accident when I was putting in the redline MT90. I put it back of course, it's listed in the factory service manual as the 36MM Sealing bolt, I mistook it for the fill plug. Fluid spilled out when I took it off. I hope that's not the reason why the clutch had problems. I did fill up on clutch fluid after that incident though.

The car is at Keyes Acura now. There were 3 other NSXs there, one black 95+ FSTDAWG plate, a silver and a red coupe. Oh yeah, the 2002 Yellow that belongs to one of the staff. They already determined that the hydraulic is working so they don't suspect the slave or master cylinder. I called Ramon and he thought that if I filled up the fluid again I should be able to pump the clutch and eventually drive the car again but no luck.

The gears could be engaged when the car is off, not sure if that still is the case now. Keyes wanted to replace all the cam plugs because the car bleeds but I was told this was normal by Ramon. They somehow theorized that the car was leaking so much oil even though my garage floor is spotless that it somehow affected the clutch. I didn't buy that so that's why I called Ramon. At any rate, they wanted to replace the clutch that has less than 12k miles on it but I told the service guy to see if they actually need to do that when they open things up.

The car has 90k miles on it. So the total quote for replacing clutch, 2 axle boots, throw out bearing came out to about $2500. I'm hoping they open things up and find out that they can repair whatever is broken.

 

[hlweyl]

The gears could be engaged when the car is off, not sure if that still is the case now. Keyes wanted to replace all the cam plugs because the car bleeds but I was told this was normal by Ramon. They somehow theorized that the car was leaking so much oil even though my garage floor is spotless that it somehow affected the clutch. I didn't buy that so that's why I called Ramon. At any rate, they wanted to replace the clutch that has less than 12k miles on it but I told the service guy to see if they actually need to do that when they open things up.

Leaking oil from the cam plugs is not "normal". I assume they meant that low hydraulic fluid (not engine oil) affected the clutch.

Good luck in any event.

 

[drew]

<b>The 1/2" bolt I removed by accident when I was putting in the redline MT90. I put it back of course, it's listed in the factory service manual as the 36MM Sealing bolt , I mistook it for the fill plug. Fluid spilled out when I took it off. I hope that's not the reason why the clutch had problems. </b>

Can you point out which bolt? Still troubling to me...

Making mistakes are fine, some just cost more than others, but the goodnews is that you always learn from them.

<b>I did fill up on clutch fluid after that incident though.</b>

You mean MTF?
Why would the clutch reserviour be affected by this operation?

<b>At any rate, they wanted to replace the clutch that has less than 12k miles on it but I told the service guy to see if they actually need to do that when they open things up.</b>

They think that engine oil impregnated the clutch facings? Naw, they're nuts: It would smoke, slip and stink.

The axle boots probably need replacing.

My guess is that your tranny is not very happy at all. I'm tying to figure out which bolt you removed. I have not pulled apart the NSX tranny...but I am heavily suspecting the bolt removal is the cause.

You shouldn't have oil coming out of a normal case to case fastener (but then again: I have not taken apart the NSX tranny [at least not yet]).

 

[Malibu Rapper]

I also remembered reading a thread about bleeding cam bolts that said it's ok. Here it is: Linky

And yes, they did mention engine oil, not hydraulic fluid, affecting the clutch. The technician that lifted the car was describing how somehow the clutch is sensitive to low oil in the car. The tech basically thought that the car lost so much engine oil that it overheated something and somehow broke the clutch (my car did NOT overheat BTW, temps were fine). Which is why they quoted me on all the cam plugs and a few gaskets. I didn't buy this because I know my car has a greasy oil pan but it never drips even a drop on my garage floor and when I use my oil extractor, I get just over 5 quarts. The tech didn't make me feel very comfortable, he quickly dismissed the possibility of it being covered by warranty since my clutch is fairly new but my service guy Josh was looking into it for me.

Here is the picture of the 36 MM sealing bolt. I remember sticking my finger in there and it couldn't go in very far. There was some kind of a lever in there you could move back and forth.

 

[drew]

OK, I'm stumped. You've exhausted my knowledge, not that it took much.

I think your cam seals are OK. Take care of it when you get your new timing belt.

The seal bolt was probably a nothing, I can see why you removed it.

Guesses: clutch not initialized properly? Tranny not happy? Shift linkages not happy?

 

[cbr600]

Malibu Rapper,

I experienced almost exactly the same problem last week. At first, I didn't think my clutch would be the problem due it only had 12k miles on it. It's OEM. Dropped the car at Acura dealer and was told the clutch needs to be replaced.

Cost $2,021.07
Knowing the new clutch may need to be replaced again 12k miles later, priceless

 

[cbr600]

.

.

 

[drew]

CBR600 your worn clutch did not allow you to shift gears? I would expect that you would be able to shift, but just not go anywhere...the higher the gear: the more slip.

It seems M.Rapper can put the car in gear, start car and drive away....which really does sound like the clutch is not releasing. Hopefully, Keyes will figure it out (While Keyes does have high prices, I have been otherwise happy with their service).

 

[cbr600]

I don't know too much about clutch so I'd let those photos explain the problem. I was told that a piece of metal broke; the spring came loose and got struck.

When the problem first occurred, the clutch pedal dropped to the floor and I could not shift at all. Later on, I managed to drive the car 5 miles back home, during the 5 miles I had difficulty shifting and heard the grinding noise when shifting. Before the incident, I never had problem shifting or experienced clutch slippery.

 

[JPS Europa]

I had the same spring retainer failure in my Integra and the same symptoms, although it was at 195,000 miles not 12,000. I did replace everything, but only the friction disk needed replacement. Is this a common failure on the NSX? I sure hope not. I would hate to think that the clutch design on my 30 year old Lotus (has never needed a clutch adjustment) is better than my 10 year old NSX.

 

[cbr600]

I talked to a few local NSX owners about my clutch problem. None of them had the clutch failed so quickly. I must be the unlucky one.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

The pics by cbr600 show exactly what I described above. Notice the tang missing from the hole that the spring is now missing from. This is a classic NSX (and Integra) clutch failure.

I will say it is a little earlier then normal at 12K miles, but remember clutches are like brakes, wear rates vary unpredictable, but very dependent on how they are used.

So the clutch per say is not "worn" at 12K miles, it broke. Still need a result from Malibu's dealer to know what is wrong.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Yeah I noticed what you were saying Larry, thanks! If the spring just broke and they see that it's the issue, do they replace the whole clutch still or just the spring?

My car was still sitting in the repair lot this afternoon in the hot Van Nuys sun. They did supply me with a cool little RSX loaner.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

You can order the disks separately, but the tech will have to evaluate the friction surfaces on the flywheel, intermediate plate, and pressure plate to decide if this is a good way to go.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Got the car back

Well, I got my NSX back on Friday. The service manager showed me my old clutch and it looked a lot like the picture that was posted. One of the spring tang things was missing. I couldn't tell but he said my flyweel was burned out and they suspect it's because I push the car without turning the TCS off which I am definitely guilty of. So, I got the clutch, all 4 axle boots replaced, throwout bearing, alignment and the bill came out to $2432.

The car definitely shifts smoother and the clutch feels lighter now.

So I get my car back and I'm anxious to try the new Zaino products. As I'm washing off the car, I notice some scratches on my Wings West front lip. Definitely not from the tow because I had a great tow company take my car to Keyes and I know the scratches weren't there because I was taking off the tow hook cover and would have noticed it or I would have noticed it the night before when I was washing the car. These were deep scratches and then on closer inspection, the paint was cracked from around the side to near the middle. Someone hit something from the time the car was left at the dealer till when I got it, I know I didn't hit anything on the way back home. The impact caused the deep scratches and the lip to bend and crack the paint.

I should have inspected the car when I got it back but it was a hot day and I was tired. I'm going to give the dealer a call to see what's up tomorrow. They took good care of me and I hope they continue to do so.

 

[hlweyl]

There has been several posts regarding damage caused by the dealer. If/when we use the dealer, I think a thorough pre and post inspection is in order!

 

[ATERPAK]

You know Malibu Rapper. I've been following this thread and I've seen the same failuer on my wife''s old Integra but after over 50,000 miles on it. But what I'm most surprised at is the pure "BULL SHIT" these service techs. and repair people are throwing at you.

1. Clutches don't get screwed up because you may be low on oil from the engine. Even if the engine had no oil in it and blew up, it shouldn't affect the clutch in the least.

2. Pushing the car with the TCS on will not affect the cutch either. TCS needs a certain amount of speed to be working properly and it has to be turned on.

3. Who installed that clutch originally? Don't they have some form of gaurantee for at least 1 year. For it to fail that quick and if you haven't been flogging the car at the drag strip or even the track, then it shows that the part was defective and not how you drove the car.

4. Changing any oil in the transmission will not affect a clutch unless you're putting in pure grease and even then I doubt it. The only way transmission oil can affect a clutch is if it's pilot shaft seal has failed and it starts leaking onto it and then eventually onto the clutch disks. This will cause the clutch to become very grabby when you first start out. You should also notice it coming out from the transmission where a little hole is at the bottom where it mates to the engine. It's there just for that purpose.

If I were you, I would get away from these people ASAP. They're pure CON ARTIST.