Need some assistance with tips on Window issue

[sylcurt]

Hey all, so here's where I am at:

When I first bought the car, I noticed the windows were sluggish, particularly when going up....so in the "off season" last winter, I took out the regulators and sent them away to have the Hugo pulley installed.


I got them back and reinstalled them. (also took the time to clean out all the old dried up grease in the tracks and regrease them )

Passenger side was immediately different, faster up and down, no complaints at all. Dirver side was faster down, but really sluggish (same as before) going up. Also, I noticed it did not go down all the way flush with the top of the door, seemed to bog down about 2" sticking up.

I don't use the windows all that much, and since everything was back together, decided to live with it while I drove the car last summer.

So, yesterday was my day to take the door panel off, as well as the poly weather vapor barrier (what a mess that always is) and take a look at it.

Basically, here is what I can see:

1) from a totally closed (up) position, the window goes down quite well until about halfway...then slows a bit , like its boggingdown, then gets through that area and continues down the remainder of the way until it gets to about the last 3" of travel, and really bogs down, coming to rest about 2" above the top of door. You can't even force it down all the way by pushing it, while the window is in motion.

2) So, I disconnected the actual window from the regulator (PIA) so I could check each independently. Firstly, the regulator on its own, with no glass seemed to be very quick, up and down, made almost no noise, but still did not go all the way down....what would cause the mechanism to stop about 2" above the final resting point?

3) I checked the glass window by just moving it myself (no motor connected) it seemed to move ok in the tracks, although there was some binding about halfway down or up. It took quite an effort to move it up and down by hand. Is this normal to be a fair bit of effort to slide it up and down - due to weight of window? or is there alignment issues with tracks? There are two lower nuts over top of set screws that hold the bottom of the track in, and appear to adjust the bottom portion of the track slightly. I played with these a bit, moving the track slight more out, or slightly more in, and neitiher adjustment seemed to make any difference, even when I moved it to both extreme positions of in or out.

If I just let the window fall from the totally closed (up ) position, its a slow slide all the way down...not a fast free fall...is that normal or should it literally slam right down?

I think I might have two issues, but would really like your opinion of things. My glass itself could be binding, as well as my regulator for some reason is not returning all the way down.

I have a tonne of threads regarding the whole topic of sluggish windows, but I am looking for some starting points before taking out the regulator again....thanks, Curtis

 

[bullithollywood]

If the slider on the track does not go all the way to the stop when its out of the car then thats wrong and probably the best place to start. Significant drag on the window by itself may slow it down some but shouldn't stop it.

Its been a while since I did mine but as I recall if the regulator was reassembled without first pushing the slider completely to the bottom stop then the rewinding of the cable on the spool inside the regulator would be off and could cause what your seeing- not going down all the way.

 

[haveblue]

The regulator should definitely go all the way to the bottom. I actually don't see how it could have been re-wound to both stop 2" from the end, AND still work in the process. Quite strange...

The guides are highly adjustable with regards to alignment. It could be possible that they are slightly misaligned now upon your reinstallation, assuming that they are properly greased. There is really no other way to adjust them other than just messing with them.

I have a question though: When I did this repair a week ago, I ended up just cutting away half the plastic moisture barrier sheeting since it tore upon removal. What are the implications if I keep it removed?

 

[NSX2398]

Who installed your Hugo pulleys .. and do you have confidence in them? Having done it myself, I can believe that there are opportunities to put it back together incorrectly or not properly adjusted. You might want to check with Hugo to get his comments on that.

This next point doesn't have anything to do with your issue of stopping too soon but my personal experience with the modification (I did both the pulley and Hugo's teflon sliders) on one of my doors was that before I reinstalled it in the door, I noticed that the slider was binding part way down the track. After a lot of analysis, I believe that the problem was that the slider piece that Hugo's teflon pieces fit into had deformed slightly and therefore the teflon pieces weren't staying parallel to the guide at one point and were binding. My solution was to individually grind off a little of the teflon which seemed to fix most of the problem .. although it still doesn't work as well as the other.

 

[haveblue]

My slider was bent too. I had to grind down two of the teflon pieces before it would work.

 

[sylcurt]

Thanks for the replies guys. To answer some questions, I had the regulators updated with the Hugo pulleys done by one of our respected prime members here, Said he had done many of them, so I'm pretty sure they are ok...they move up and down very quickly and smoothly (without the window attached)

As far as the two tracks (one near hinge side of door and one hear handle side of door) I never loosened then or anything when I took out the regulators...so they would have been the same as they always were.

Regulators themselves...I see that that is some slight play in where you can tighten the bolts, but that doesn't appear to have any effect, since the while plastic bushing that goes up and down has enought play in it that it shouldn't be binding even if the regulator is positioned slightly "off" in the holes...we're talking only very small variances.

So, can the regulator itself be woundin a way that it reaches the end of its travel (downwards) and won't go any further?...or should it do indefintely like a continuous loop, only being stopped by the stopping bump place at the bottom of window. I am guessing that one of the problems is related to this, since the motor stops 2" above the window stop plate.

I think once I can get that one figured out, I will move on to getting the window to slide easier, which should speed it up....I just can see where there is any resistance being introduced, since it's just two tracks and there is lots of free play.

Yes, fresh grease was done, after the old somewhat dried up crusty grease was carefully cleaned out of the tracks.

The inside top rubber trim molding is current removed...that was the only way I could unattached the regulator from the glass.

If I can't figure this out, is this more an issue for a body shop person, or a mechanical technician?

I think I mentioned, but passenger side goes very well up and down. (all the way in both directions)

thanks for insight you can add, I will try some more this weekend...

Hugo, you have had many of these apart...any thoughts?

 

[Hugabuga]

Hi sylcurt

Well according to your description and my experience I would also bet your problem is a bent slider. Do you have an ealier 91 to 93 model? Sliders are wicker on these models and tends to bend with age, use an aluminium thingy part there if you do.

You have 3 solutions:

1 - you said "I don't use the windows all that much, and since everything was back together, decided to live with it...",well you should do exactly the opposite: use and abuse them :biggrin:as the teflon parts will break-in and all should get smoother with time.

If you are impatient or the window is really that bad then:

2 - remove the 4th teflon guide and operate the regulator only with 3 guides (remove the lower one, opposite to the bumpstopper side), or try to grind down that 4th one, but leave the other 3 intact. I have seen a lot of sliders with no guides at all, so do not worry it will work on 3
You should even be able to cut that 4th guide with the regulator in place, with a sharp nife or a cutter if you are too lazy to take it out of the door again...

3 - very carefully try to bend the slider back in place, but use some heat blower to get it hot before you do it, be very carreful not to crack it as you can't get a slider from any other car than from an NSX, that would mean a new regulator!

Only way to check if you have a bent slider is to disconnet the cables and move it over the regulator track to see if it glides freely as it is supposed to.
If you would fit 4 new OEM rubber guides to a bent slider you won´t be able to move it at all!

Let us know of the results, I will offer you some spare guides if your problem is not a bent slider and you have destroyed the guide in vain

 

[sylcurt]

Thanks Hugo.
The car is a 2000 with low miles and pristine shape throughout
So to keep things clear when you say the 4 sliders do you mean the part of the regulator that slides up and down or the parts that go up and down in the tracks? I think I will start with taking out regulator again and have a look at the sliding things Thanks for your reply.

 

[haveblue]

Your slider is definitely bent, like mine is.

Try to use it with three, and then dremel or sand the fourth down so that it moves without interfering with the channel.

 

[dustthisnsx]

I think I 've got the same issue

See YouTube video here


Appears to be bent

never making contact with the track

where as the other side sits right in the slot

and appears to have been rubbing quite some time

Little 320 and 500 grit sandpaper to the contact patches or the teflon worked like a charm! Slides freely for the whole length of the slider. Just make sure both pieces are free of grease, run the slider up and down over the sticky spots a number of times then inspect the teflon for contact/binding areas.

 

[Quix-Draw]

I did Hugo's kit a week ago on my driver's door (the one with the highest use). Besides barely go up, the window would bind in certain spots, prompting me to pull it up while holding the switch. After disassembly, I saw that my slider was actually twisted...bent...to where none of the 4 teflon pads were in line with each other (explains the binding). I could have shaved the teflon pieces to create the clearance, but as you'll read below, I decided to make the slider "right" again. Also, there must have been a lot of drag prior to the repair, because my little nylon window-thingy that holds the cable ends was cracked and deformed in the directions of the "UP" cable (I assume the "up" side, which takes most of the stress against the weight of the glass, etc.) also bending out the part of the slider that holds the "thingy". I reversed the direction when I reinstalled it to put the uncracked side on the "up" cable.
It took quite a bit of vise-clamping-gentle-bend-tweaking to get the slider back to 97% correct. Even thought the window works 500% better, yesterday I purchased the aluminum replacement window fixit "thingy's" from SOS, I know Dali has them too, so I'm going to take the driver's side back apart and replace the slightly-cracked nylon one with a new aluminum one. I'll have been a seasoned veteran at dismantling the door by that point and will check the slider for alignment again and do any final tweaks if needed. Then I'll do the passenger door, which works much better to begin with... Moral...give a good look at your slider. If it looks tweaked, it probably is, so work with it slowly to get it back to where it should be...

Best of Luck, QD.

 

[Quix-Draw]

I think I 've got the same issue

See YouTube video here


Appears to be bent

never making contact with the track

where as the other side sits right in the slot

and appears to have been rubbing quite some time

Little 320 and 500 grit sandpaper to the contact patches or the teflon worked like a charm! Slides freely for the whole length of the slider. Just make sure both pieces are free of grease, run the slider up and down over the sticky spots a number of times then inspect the teflon for contact/binding areas.

Great pics and writeup, by the way... I obviously concur... t.

 

[Grimeas]

I did my recently and had the same issue on the drivers side. It would rub and cause extra friction thru the middle of the run. I looked it was little bent and i took a razor and shaved the Teflon guide down to fit better where it gets tight and it seemed to work better.

 

[sylcurt]

Thanks guys, I will take the regulator out this weekend and have a closer look at the slider portion. I also have a question though....when you took the regulator out, was the window moving up and down freely?...meaning if you tried to pull it up and let it do down, was it still binding a bit?...my regulator is disconnected from the glass, and my glass is still stiff when going up and donw...is that a track alignment issue, or more so the "things" that slide within the tracks? If it is, how do you remove the tracks, or window altogether fromt he door to take a closer look at this...?

 

[sylcurt]

ok, so I finally had a chance to get the regulator out. I noticed a few things. Going up, it goes all the way, and seems to travel ok. Going down, it works almost to the end, but is binding at the very end.

I also noticed my pulley was not turning, the cable was actually just spinning around the pulley, so I loosened the bottom nut just a bit and the pulley started turning. But now, the top metal circular piece, the one with the tabs bent down over the edge, also spins a bit and after a few ups and downs, the tabs actually interefere with the cable (scrape on it).

Anyway, a couple of things also,,,there seems to be a tremendous pressure on the cable side of the mechanism, pulling it downwards towards the cable. Should the cable be that tight?...its like super tight. Secondly, the rubber sliders seem to be cracked and out of shape and it allows quite of bit of free play in the mechanism.

I know there are the teflon sliders now...can they be installed without taking the whole motor cable assembly apart? I think that would help a bit...but I am really concerned about the cable being so tight and because it has no room to flex, it is pulling the assembly over to the one side, causing it to bind. I will try to deal with the window tracks once I get this fixed.

I have attached this link to a you tube video that might help what I am trying to explain better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s0RQNBbqH8&feature=youtu.be

Thanks guys.

Curtis

 

[Hugabuga]

Hi Curtis!
As you asked me by PM, I carefully watch your youtube movie, here are my opinions/comments:
-the pulley top cover seems missaligned, one of the 3 cable safety holder devices could in fact be responsible for some drag to the cable when fully opening the window, try to unscrew it and realign it correctly
-I do not see any grease on your regulator, the HomeDepot white teflon grease does work fine
-I do not see any bump stopper on the lever= it should be old because bumper has gone = the lever should be bent because it is old - try to use only 3 guides or carefully bend the lever back to its orginal shape

Finally, yes you can replace the guides without opening and tighting the wires again, all the info is here:http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1424048&postcount=274

While you are at it, you should also check the lever by hand to see if it glides freely over the track as it should before re-connecting the wires!

Let us know the results
good luck!
Hugo

 

[grybrd]

I have a question though: When I did this repair a week ago, I ended up just cutting away half the plastic moisture barrier sheeting since it tore upon removal. What are the implications if I keep it removed?

The vapor barrier is important enough that when I did my '91s window tracks and found the driver's door barrier mangled, I ordered a new one. Interior panels are quickly destroyed by humidity if they are not in place.

 

[vf2ss]

hi curtis, in addition to hugo's first point when you attempt to realign it, there is also a possibility that the pulley got cranked down a little too hard when it was first being tightened; the metal sleeve inside that is meant reserve free movement for the pulley wheel is now only as wide as the pulley itself hence why it stops it. as you noted, loosening allows the folded tabs disc to move and potentially catch on the cable which is bad, and tightening it puts you back to where you started with the static u-turn the oem part already is. good news though, if this ends up being the case, i think i speak on behalf of hugo that you just need to pm him and he will get you a replacement sleeve! don't ask me how i know

 

[sylcurt]

Thanks Hugo, just so you know, I cleaned off all the grease for the purpose of working with it, but I did greae it all back up last winter after I got the regulators back from Wil with your pulleys. I will reviews the link you sent and see if I can remove things....is there anyone in US selling new teflon guides?...it would be nice to get some quickly while things are apart, rather than having you send them from Europe.

 

[sylcurt]

So how tight are the cables supposed to be? I mean my cables are very tight, which you can see in the video, requires them to stretch a bit as the assembly gets closer to the pulley, but because of the cables being tight, I think it is stopping the assembly from going all the way down.

Here is a thought...what if I added a couple of washers under the pulley, which made it higher and more in relation to the height of the cables..thus less stretching of the cable?

 

[Hugabuga]

The pulley is turning on your video, so its sleeve is fine, that is not the problem.

Cable alignment to the pulley varies depending on lever position!
If you add some washers you will raise the pulley height yes, but you will also increase the torque over the pulley screw/base, you might end up bending the regulator aluminium base.
You can however slightly bend the base of the regulator where the pulley is fixed, to align it with the cable, I usually do it when installing the kit, just bend it with the pulley on
But I really don´t think this is the problem. Remember, the original white cable 180o guide was not turning at all, but regulator used to worked even with a lot of drag to the cable from it

I still think your problem is a bent lever

Cables should be as tight as possible. Your cables are becoming tight because the lever is bent so it gets hard to move when it reaches the bottom of the regulator track

Wil should have some teflon guides in stock, you can also ask Bram from NSXClubCanada.
But again, you do not need new guides, just remove the lower one, opposed to bumperstop side, let your lever run on 3 guides only and you´ll solve your problem:wink:

 

[Hugabuga]

I was thinking of your problem and suddenly got a new idea that just might work.

You have a bent lever for sure. Instead of trying to bend it back to its original shape, or let the lever run on 3 guides only what don´t you try to twist the regulator track?
One easy way is to add a washer between the door shell and the regulator to one of its 4 fixing screws.
For a driver side regulator, try to fit a washer in the lower rear screw of the regulator and see if it solves the problem, use several washers or thickness until you see some progress. you can´t twist it by hand and fit it without washers as the door would twist it back to its original position

I have never tried this, but it might work

 

[sylcurt]

Hugo, I will try some of your suggestions this weekend...I am swamped at work during the week, and need to get into the right frame of mind completely, rather than going out to my shop and trying it a few minutes here and there.

I don't think the Teflon pads will hurt, so I may as well get some well I have it all apart. Passernger works like a charm by the way.

Clarification needed: When you say "bent" lever, what are you referring to specifically? Is there a picture of the part you think is bent possibly somewhere?....there is a post above mine in the thread a ways up...is the lever showing in one of these pictures that I can cross reference as what you think is bent on mine?

Sorry guys, I am more of a stereo and electronics guy, kind of get overwhelmed with mechanical stuff like this a bit.

Thank You.

 

[Hugabuga]

Hi Curtis
I do not have any pictures of a bent lever here with me to show you
Lever is the part that moves along the regulator track, were you fit the guides and were the wires connect to, right? Well if you carefully look at its design you'll notice the pulling wire is not aligned with the point where the glass weight acts! That disalignment produces a torque that will end up bending and twisting the lever due to creep after 20 years of usage. Then you'll notice the regulator track is also twisted because the window doesn't move in a 100% vertical direction,it also goes forward and backward a few inches.
So to correctly operate the lever and track twisting angle must match all times!
Somehow yours don't on the lower section of your regulator track
That is just your problem!
Take the lower guide out, opposed to bumperstop side
It will work just great on 3 guides only thrust me

 

[sylcurt]

UPDATE- ok, so I got my teflon guides on, and tried them out WITHOUT the cable and window thingy attached....with 4 guides is almost slipped up and down on its own, just gravity....I did try to straighten the assembly a bit, and carefully sanded it down just a hair, so the assembly now slides up and down all the way the full length of the track by just gravity and its own weight...Yeah!

So I was feeling pretty good, I hooked the window thingy cables back up, and tightened the pulley bolt from the Hugo pulley repair. The assembly travels all the way to up just fine, and goes down also pretty good until the last 1 - 2 ", where it comes to a stop?? Same problem as before....

So again: assembly when not hooked up to cables slides ALL the way UP AND DOWN to lowest possible position....but when cables hooked up, it does not go all the way down....(this is all testing with just regulator and assembly, no track and window.

By obvious detection, it has something to do with the cables not allowing the assembly to go all the way to the bottom, as it does not have anything to do with the slider assembly binding.

Can anyone suggest what might be the problem knowing this additional information? Could the winding of the spring and cable inside the regulator have been done slightly incorrectly and now restricts the full range of motion to the fully down position?

I guess as a last resort if anyone can offer the services to fix this, PM me including your cost. Please note that the Hugo pulley is already installed and I sent these away last year as a preventative matter to get pulley installed, but windows on my 2000 were just fine prior to that (range of motion was fine) , they were just a little slow...now speed is a bit better, but it doesn't go all the way down. Passenger side seems fine. Thanks, Curtis