My first time out on the track with nsx.

[NSXDreamer2]

Hi, just want to share the experience... I absoulutely loved my car, yes it might have more body roll than I wished, but the car made me looked like a champ today. My instuctor was very impressed the progress I made and the pace I picked up being that this is only my first time on the track with this car and I haven't been to any open track day since my first time in 2000.

Then my ego and confidence keep boosting, at the back of the straight where I was going comfortably before at 130 before, I was getting faster and faster. My instructor encouraged me to go for 140, after couple of laps of getting thru traffic, I got it, we cheered and then He encouraged me to get to carry more speed of the last turn before the back straight... I've been going noticeably slower in that turn since last time I've been that track, my friend flipped my car in that turn..(no run off area on the outside of the track)...

Well this time I carried at least 10 mph faster than I was comforting going in, and all the sudden, my instuctor told me "Don't lift Don't lift", I was telling my self the same thing, and it's too late, the backend swinging out, my friend's crash crossed my mind, then I just put my both feet in... 360 into the gravel of the infield. Based on my instructor's comment is that he noticed a little hesitation and instead of lifting more throttle, I could have keep the car on the pavement and settle the car, he was so sure of my reflex and skills that I would have catched the car.. But somehow I was too scared of turning and saving the car...

I was doing exceptionally good and looked like a champ whole day long until this incident at the last second lap of my last session..

My ego busted, SoS carbon lip is broken into 3 pieces (my wife just bought me that as my birthday gift last month), brakes a little wrapped (We have to go check out the car as soon as we get off the track, and I have no time to drive out and cool off the brakes until 10 mins later.), I got two cones on the passenger side door and front end, it buffed out, but leave couple deep scratch the bottom side of the door...

Well, I just have to tell myself It could be worst.
But I'm not afraid of what happened though, cuz the instructor stated that If I want, my car can go through there with 100 mph, no problem(I was going 90+ when I spun) , I just have to work the bugs out of my head.

Does anyone know how to exercise of precisely control my leg?? I can't even imagine myself lifting the throttle by itself when I was keep telling myself stay on it stay on it.

Someone told me that It will eventually happened (when you exploring your limits you tends to make mistakes). But as far as I concerned, I felt miserably because I didn't bring my car back in one piece. I could have easily worked on 2 mph at a time but I didn't. For the whole day, I was reminding myself I'm driving the nsx not a civic/integra I couldn't afford any mistake, as it getting closed to the end of the day, I drove faster and faster and I forgot about it. I was so confused now, because I was driving my car like my own arm and legs and I'm in a harmony that I don't even feel like I'm driving a car anymore, I'm very comfortable at speed...... right before the incident.

Well, I guessed afterall I'm still a novice, I paid a price for learning.

 

[Peter Mills]

Get a better instructor

And if you had wrecked your car would he have said "sorry".
The first rule of instructing: YOU TEACH TO THE LEVEL OF THE STUDENT, NOT TO THE CAR!
Consider yourself very lucking that you only came out of this experience with very minor damage. I suggest you find a school with better instructors. The BMWCCA has a rather indepth instructor education program and they run very good schools.
Lots of seat time at reasonable speed as it relates to your experience will help develope your confidence and your understanding the handling characteristics of the NSX.
Stay on the black.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

That's unfair to the instuctor.

I was telling him I would like to go race cars or instruting someday. I wasn't running like a red head out on the track. I was being very considerate to other students in slower cars.

I ran into other corners with good speed, and if I go over, I could save it. He had a very good idea of my ability to recover the car and my reflexes. plus I never had chance to tell my instuctor about my fear of that corner, so He DIdn't know!! Now I think of it, the fear of that corner never exist until right at the moment the car broke loose.

I don't think he did anything wrong but he could have told me don't increase the speed too much way before I approached the corner. But he didn't know I was going that fast until it's too late, right?? He did apologize to me that maybe he shouldn't keep pushing me, but I wholeheartly thinking that I'm responsible for the whole incident.

I guess what I really asking is that what kind of attitude I should have toward this, especially next time when I have a chance to go on the track again??

 

[2slow2speed]

Which run group were you running in? did the instructor know that you only had a single track day prior to the event?

The instructor and others might be able to take the car through that particular turn at higher speeds, but that does not mean that it would be the same for you , it takes a while to be able to really get comfortable with the car, even a great handling car like the NSX.

Driving just like any sport requires "muscle memory", that's not something that is developed overnight, you don't think what you need to do next, it just happens. If you are still thinking it means that you need more practice.

Not to be critical, instead of focusing on going fast make sure that you have the fundamentals right before you up the pace, things can get *really* ugly *really* fast. BTW: You can easily roll a car at 90mph, and given your description about a 360 that is really scary .

Get to know your car little by little, there is no trophy or prize waiting for you at the end of the day besides being able to drive your car back home in 1 piece. (I hear this every single track day that I attend)

Hope your car is ok, and take it a bit easier next time and get a good instructor and make sure that they know how much actual track experience you have.

Safe driving,

Ken

 

[2slow2speed]

Does anyone know how to exercise of precisely control my leg?? I can't even imagine myself lifting the throttle by itself when I was keep telling myself stay on it stay on it.

Just more actual seat time.

Seriously, when people drive on the streets the first thing that people do when they think that they are getting in trouble or are scared is to lift off the gas.

Understanding vehicle dynamics and practicing what you read/watch/hear is the only way to get better at it.

Courses like the Car Control Clinic by Skip Barber and others will help, it will give you a sense of how the cars react to driver inputs.

Ken

 

[DONYMO]

The instructor should have said "GAS! GAS!" or something in the "positive". Saying "Don't lift" doesn't work. Your brain only processes the "lift" and not the "don't".

Works the same for golf. Telling yourself "don't hit it in the water" is one of the best ways to insure you go in the water. Instead, you tell yourself "Hit it on the green" or something like that.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

The instructor should have said "GAS! GAS!" or something in the "positive". Saying "Don't lift" doesn't work. Your brain only processes the "lift" and not the "don't".

Works the same for golf. Telling yourself "don't hit it in the water" is one of the best ways to insure you go in the water. Instead, you tell yourself "Hit it on the green" or something like that.

I agree totally. Telling you NOT to lift should have been said in the paddock discussing that corner, NOT while going through it!

 

[kgb_agent]

BMW Instructors

I've heard many, many good things about BMWCCA events and instructors. But my question is--given the unique handling characteristics of the NSX, and the fact that BMW does not make a mid engine sportscar that I am aware of--how is it that BMW instructors are such a good fit with NSX drivers?

 

[nsx13]

Re: BMW Instructors

I've heard many, many good things about BMWCCA events and instructors. But my question is--given the unique handling characteristics of the NSX, and the fact that BMW does not make a mid engine sportscar that I am aware of--how is it that BMW instructors are such a good fit with NSX drivers?

I ran my first event with BMWCCA a few weeks ago at Lime Rock in the rain. Great club and organization, and my instructor was great (drove a stock '95 M3). I think Peter Mills hit the nail on the head with teaching to the level of the student.

I run Intermediate, and my instructor gave me lots of feedback and always made me feel comfortable, and by the last run of the day, cars that passed me earlier weren't passing me any more and I felt totally in control of the car even with all the rain. 2 thumbs up to BMW CCA!

 

[RP-Motorsports]

I have done BMW schools since 1998. I will fill you in on how clubs work, and hopefully others will also chime in. (Ken) Most "club" held events, search out instructors, because the supply in-house is far less than the demand. Just as an example our local Windy City Chapter of the BMWCCA had its school at Road America last weekend, and Mark B. (the one on Prime with the new yellow CTSC NSX with 50k + miles on it) was a student. Guess who his instructor was? Ken Sax an NSX owner. Among the instructor group, it is about 50% BMW owners, and 50% of every other marque. And of the BMW owners, do you think that they all owned and driven BMW's all their life exclusively? Answer probably not. Jeff B. was another instructor driving an E36 Euro powered lightweight, but guess what for the last 5 years or so he owned an NSX. There are Z06 instructors, Rx7, Viper, Ferrari, etc etc. When you sign up, the BMW board will try their best to supply you with a good match for your skill and car. And if for some reason (it happens) you just don't "click" with your instructor on Sat mornings first session, you can request a better match.

The BMWCCA schools are second to none. I started the schools in my GSR, followed by the same car with full suspension, brakes, slicks, and a turbo kit. I now have an NSX. I have never owned a BMW, but after joining the BMW family with my Hondas, and meeting so many great people, I will be buying one soon.

PS if even Ken Sax as a qualified instructor doesn't satisfy your needs, Memo Gidley was on hand as well, I think if he can push a 900 bhp turbo mid-engined Honda around the track he will do.

 

[DONYMO]

Re: BMW Instructors

I've heard many, many good things about BMWCCA events and instructors. But my question is--given the unique handling characteristics of the NSX, and the fact that BMW does not make a mid engine sportscar that I am aware of--how is it that BMW instructors are such a good fit with NSX drivers?

They usually pair you with an instructor who drives an NSX or similar handling car. Instructors are very experienced and are typically not clueless as to how different cars handle. It's not THAT complicated!

 

[NSXDreamer2]

FYI: My instructor is a member of BMWCCA

and he mentioned to me to join their section to get more seat time. He raced BMW himself too and he's probably not too familiar with the nsx handling. He probably had the false image of trusting my skill and the handling of the nsx... I felt very bad, by posting this, I acted like I was trying to blame and talking s*** about him. In reality, He was willing to help me out and give me instruction for free. (I didn't pay for the event with instructors.) I'm very sure that I can go out and drive with a slower pace and bring the car back in one piece.

I was hoping to push the car more and gaining more valuable experience and being faster. And he lend me a good hand for the experience.

I wasn't even prepare for all this, cuz my initial plan was joining for a drive section that I just enjoy being out there and strech the nsx's legs. Then as soon as the first session ended, the instrutor actually gave me a lot of confidence and I was being going faster and improving braking... Then all the sudden I got too serious in my head that I was working hard for a faster speed. I could have avoid it totally, but it's just me...

That happens a lot to me even like just going for an indoor go kart as a afterwork relaxation event ... Once I was having only 2 hours sleep, went for work for straight 12 hours, and then went for playing go kart, all the sudden, I was too mad that I was doing slower than I thought, and I kept playing another 20 mins to work for a better time. I almost collapsed when i got home.

 

[Peter Mills]

HPDE Instructors

BMWCCA has a Instructor Training School for Advanced drivers who want to become instructors. You're given a mentor who spends two days with you role playing different skill level drivers and different personalities. Then you are evaluated by a different trainer. How you instruct him and your ability to understand certain situations on the track are given value points. If you score over 180 points you are certified as an instructor. Lower points allow you to instruct but with continued supervision. The school I attended only 2 out of 10 passed.
Other HPDE groups seem to select their instructors from a list of advanced drivers that haven't crash within the past 24 hrs.
Once again an instructor teachs to the driver not the car. You were very lucky. Next time ask the instructor about his or her qualifications and experience. Its information you should know.
I'm outa here.

 

[CDub]

My first track experience was very similar to yours. At Streets of Willow I was following other cars (without an instructor) most of the time because we had 20 cars in our run group. The last session was a session for all cars and I found myself all alone when I get to the back straight. I was going way too fast and before I knew it, the chicanes were right in front of my face. With late braking, I spun the car 180 and went off track backward putting many rock chips on the side. Needless to say, I went home discouraged.

After that, I bought the book "Going Faster" and got feedback from Ken, Kenji, Ken S., Alex V., Greg H., Marc W.... My mindset for my second (Button Willows) and third (Pahrump) track events were to go slow and learn the lines first, then learn the braking points and shifting points.

WRXs, Evos were passing me and I didn't care. At the end of the day, I felt tired but exhilarated. I believe that is the way I'd want to enjoy my car. I figure driving faster on the track will come some day. But not the first dozen events.

I also found that autoX is a good and safe way to learn how your car behaves. It doesn't take too much to push your car to its cornering limits on a tight course. You'll learn how throttle application can help the car through turns. That was part of my learning process.

 

[matteni]

The instructor should have said "GAS! GAS!" or something in the "positive". Saying "Don't lift" doesn't work. Your brain only processes the "lift" and not the "don't".

Works the same for golf. Telling yourself "don't hit it in the water" is one of the best ways to insure you go in the water. Instead, you tell yourself "Hit it on the green" or something like that.

Be careful with this advice. If you aren't experianced enough to know you have overcooked a corner and begin to spin - you are not experianced enough to catch it with the gas IMO. By the time a novice student or even a passenger is aware of a spin starting - it is too late. When you spin - both feet in.

I remember listening to Peter Cunningham at Mid Ohio tell me - when you realize you are in trouble - the very last thing you want to do as a novice is through "gas" on the problem.

He recounted some terrible incidents where a innocent spin with limited risks was turned into something much more serious because the driver was in trouble and stomped on the gas.

BTW - there is no shame in admitting all of this and I have been guilty to. We are all part time track hounds and most of us can only get an appreciation for a real racing experience - not duplicate it.

 

[kenjiMR]

I wasn't gonna chime in, but what the hell...

You gotta remember driving at the track is dangerous and going to risk scratching the paint on your car.
Thats just part of learning to go faster. Actually, I don't believe the NSX is really a great car for
beginners to learn to drive fast. The learning curve for a beginner using a OEM springed NSX is going
to be higher than something small, cheap and underpowered. If I were to do it all over again, I would
start by tracking a 100HP car, then a 200HP car, then a 300HP car. It takes time for your mind to
calibrate to higher speeds as well. The racetrack while driving a 300HP car looks a lot different than
one in a 100HP car.

I've done about 25 track events, I still have some anxiety in some turns in the NSX. The MR2, on the
other hand is way too slow and doesn't make me sweat one bit.

 

[ncdogdoc]

Be careful with this advice. If you aren't experianced enough to know you have overcooked a corner and begin to spin - you are not experianced enough to catch it with the gas IMO. ........

I think what Don was trying to emphasize was not to get off the gas, not jump into the gas.

I agree with your statements, but even the standard line of both feet in can still get you in trouble. It is my experience that with an NSX, even feathering of the throttle can get you in trouble. It is all a matter of finesse. I would rather stay in the gas and steer off course than have the rear end take me where it wants to go.

My two strongest statements regarding driving this car at speed is NEVER lift, and do not pinch a corner as you cannot dial in more steering if you are too fast for the corner. Both will get your ass backwards faster than you can blink.

 

[Yellow Rose]

.....and do not pinch a corner as you cannot dial in more steering if you are too fast for the corner.

Perhaps it is the terminology, but something doesn't make sense to me. By "pinch the corner" do you mean turning in too early? If so, if you are going to fast and the rear begins to step out, rather than dialing in more steering (I presume you mean turning the steering wheel more in the direction you have already turned it) to prevent the rear from coming around, you should counter-steer. To me this means dialing out steering.

 

[DONYMO]

I think he means that when you're past the apex, tracking out, don't turn in MORE. In other words let the car track out smoothly, all the way to the tracks edge...don't feed in more steering input.

Correct Gary?

 

[kgb_agent]

Although I have not had mine on the track before I have experimented on desolate curvy roads. I find that the slightest bit of bump or off-camber change in road surface will make the front light if you are cooking it and start to send a REALLY fast, uneasy feeling of impending snap-spin. When this happens I never lift and I quickly countersteer out of it. It will feel like 4-wheel drift. The whole process takes about 3/4 of a second.

The NSX is much trickier than a front-engine sportscar to master near the limit of adhesion.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

what I experienced first hand is that handling a drift or correcting a slide in 30-60mph is 10 times easier than say, in my experience, 90 mph+...

After I talked to couple guys who been on the track, the section I spun is a little rough and uneven, it's also right after a left up hill... So what could happened was that I was trying to lift the throttle before I go into the long sweeper while the rear suspension is "floating" from the uphill.

Next time I go to the track, I'd probably demand to walk out there and look at the road surface and paid more attention to that.

After 2 nights of thinking of what happened, I guess I'm ready to get on the track again and over come that.

 

[kenjiMR]

I've found ride-alongs with other experienced drivers to be very helpfull. Do you have any experienced NSX drivers in your area? That would help a lot.

 

[Tank]

You gotta remember driving at the track is dangerous and going to risk scratching the paint on your car.
Thats just part of learning to go faster. Actually, I don't believe the NSX is really a great car for
beginners to learn to drive fast.

I gotta go with kenjiMR on this.

This first thing I did with my X was take it to the track at Buttonwillow. And in the first run group I spun it. I came to a stop 10 feet from the pit wall. As I sat there rather stunned with the dirt cloud still blowing through my open windows I thought, "Wow, I just about made a $40K mistake." I decided right there that I had to find a better way to learn to drive fast.

In the process of doing that I came to some of the conclusions already mentioned here. The biggest of which is that this car - on a stock suspension - is not an easy car to learn fast driving. It has some built-in traps for someone without a lot of high-performance driving experience.

My journey took me to autox, which I fell in love with and spend most of my time doing now. But at least these days when I get on the track I have a real idea about the limits of the car.... and myself.

BTW, the BMW Clubs do have some great instructors, just like the ones we used at NSXPO last year. I joined BMWCA just to get more seat time with them. NSXCA is a very small group compared to them. It is no reflection on our cars that their club has an abundance of great drivers; the percentage might actually be the same or better with us but there's just so many more of them.

Keep the shiny side up.

t

 

[OLDE GUY]

More and More Serious Accidents at DE Events

I have seen four serious accidents at three DE events in the past 5 weeks. No person was seriously injured but the cars surely were: two hit walls hard, one cartwheeled rear over nose after hitting a puddle of water near the end of a straight and one rolled. When talking with friends, I used to say that I rarely saw serious accidents at DE events - not anymore.

Too many of these accidents are by students who have instructors in the cars - not the solo or instructor drivers. I can tell you that the instructors afterwards were very shookup - perhaps more than the students - because they thought that the student had good skills and judgement. They were wrong in their opinion.

As someone else mentioned, things can go VERY WRONG, VERY FAST on the track. Having read the student's comments above, I have to question the judgement of both the student and the instructor. What is a first time student doing going 140 MPH with no roll bar or cage? How can he possibly be aware of the possibilities, of danger signs, that he is in trouble soon enough to do something about it i.e. he just missed an apex by 5 feet and is in deep trouble. He can't know these things and he surely doesn't know what to do about it at speed. Furthermore his natural reflexes i.e. to lift the throttle will cause him to do the wrong thing.

Our student here wants to discribe his problem as not keeping his foot on the accelerator when he should be analyzing why he got into trouble in the first place. My money says that he was wide of the apex by a significant amount and that is why he was in trouble. The student should be asking why he missed the apex in the first place , what he can do the next time he sees that he is GOING to miss an apex, pickup the problem earlier so he doesn't go charging ahead as though he is on line. A novice student SHOULD BE CONCENTRATING ON LEARNING THE LINE AND BEING ABLE TO DUPICATE IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN - WITHOUT FAIL - NOT ON GOING AS FAST AS HE CAN. Shame on both of them for very poor judgement. They were very lucky it wasn't worse.

NSXDreamer2, if you want to learn to race, do yourself a favor and please go to a school where they require rollbars/cages and you wear a 5 point safety harness.

 

[titaniumdave]

Come on down to Portland and PIR. The track is very safe with lots of run out and is a great place to learn and develop skills with out the danger of PIR in Seattle. That track is fun to drive but as you found out, it comands a consideable amount of respect. Team Continental does some very good instruction for high performance driving and the BMW club does very reasonably priced DE days where you can get lots of track time. I hope to be back on the track by the middle of June, maybe we can hook up on one of the days?