Mike,
I believe it's the Brake Lamp issue. Please see the attached picture of the location of the error light.
My brake lamp light is on...
- Thread starter s2art
- Start date
Mike,
I believe it's the Brake Lamp issue. Please see the attached picture of the location of the error light.
The brake lamp monitoring sensor (BRAKE LAMP) is located on one of the rear lenses and attaches with two screws. I don't remember which side it's on, been a while. I went to the salvage yard and got one off of a Honda Accord (mid 90s) and fixed my problem. Take the old one with you to compare.
Brad
Brad
Any chance to get a picture of the incriminated part?
Thanks Brad I appreciate it so that I can replace this damn part. Yesterday this light went off for the first time in 9 months and I felt weird not seeing it anymore! Then it popped back up again.
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=NSX&catcgry2=1992&catcgry3=2DR+NSX&catcgry5=TAILLIGHT&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no
It's part number 32/33 on the diagram.
Hope this helps.
It's part number 32/33 on the diagram.
Hope this helps.
Here is a picture of the Sensor
Alternatively, you can just by-pass the sensor. See this write-up for this option. http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ke-Lamp-Failure-Solution?highlight=hyperflash
I've spent more time in the ass of my car than I'd like to admit, trying to fix this. I have a '91 with stock bulbs that have been cleaned and the pig tails cleaned too. I've jumped the white/green wire coming out of the 8 pin connector in the passenger side to the black grounding wire and got nothing. I've grounded it to chassis and nada. I've researched every thread I can find and I see where some people have cut the orange/white wire and grounded it to the black wire. Is this my next move?
I'm like most on here where the light comes and goes intermittently and in the same day. But it will almost always come on firing up the car first time in the day. I'm about to resort to the dreaded black tape on the dash "fix". Anything else I'm missing? Thanks in advance.
I'm like most on here where the light comes and goes intermittently and in the same day. But it will almost always come on firing up the car first time in the day. I'm about to resort to the dreaded black tape on the dash "fix". Anything else I'm missing? Thanks in advance.
My brake light was on all the time. The problem was in the cluster. Part # 18 DISPLAY
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=NSX&catcgry2=1991&catcgry3=2DR+NSX&catcgry5=METER%2BCOMPONENTS&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=NSX&catcgry2=1991&catcgry3=2DR+NSX&catcgry5=METER%2BCOMPONENTS&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no
I've had this before and nine times out of ten it will be a loose earth or a broken or pinched wire which can be a pain to find, so check for any lose connections or maybe if your tail lights have been out for whatever reason there may be a pinched wire when they were reinstalled which means the connection can be intermittant
Thanks Cam for the reply. My lights were taken out when the car was wrapped but the light was on before that so it's been a long standing problem. But I plan on tackling it today and hopefully victory will be mine.
Yeah mate check those connections and feel the wires for any possible breaks that the insulating rubber may hide, we could not find mine until we did that, the wire had been broken but the rubber insulater was still intact. It had been broken by pulling the lights in and out a few times and we obviously pinched it at some stage
Defeat. I spent hours going thru the entire system. Cleaned the pigtails, bulbs, checked for broken wires and pinches, connected the white/green wire to known good ground. And that freakin' light is still on. Time to break out the black tape.
Pure speculation on my part but I believe I read somewhere that the early signs of capacitor failure within the instrument cluster often manifests itself initially with the brake light warning lamp illuminating. Might be something to investigate further if you really have hit a brick wall.
No problem. For your reference I found the source of my information for you. See post #10 here: http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?11827-Speedo-problem
"The common failure mode is the speedo showing much lower figure compared to the actual GPS reading and the famous ‘BRAKE LAMP’ warning indicator stays On forever even when there is no bulb failures at the brake lights.
"
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Wow. That is some info right there, thanks for the tip. So who out there does a refurbished on Guage clusters?
After this thread came up again I was contacted by another Kiwi owner in Japan who had the same issue and it was a capacitor failure in the dash, so looks like this might start to become more common over time, maybe BrianK might want to offer this service to go along with his A/C unit repair. He used a service over in Japan to fix it as Honda Japan couldnt figure out how to do it.
Hi, Valhalla.
For your reference, followings are the basic on how the BRAKE LAMP warning circuit works.
Without starting the engine AND without touching the Brake pedal, please put the IG sw into P2 (IG ON, lots of lights on the dash gauge).
The light bulb check mode is initiated including the BRAKE LAMP warning light and it will switch itself Off after a few seconds if the circuit is working fine.
This is regardless of whether you have dead brake bulb or not.
The brake light bulb failure detection is only triggered at the time when you operate the brake pedal.
Once the bulb failure is detected, it will be latched until you switch off the IG sw.
Therefore, if your BRAKE LAMP warning light stays On even before operating the brake pedal, you have a problem.
To be clear, as long as you have at least one good brake light bulb on the car AND the failure detection feedback wire (ORN/WHT, mentioned later) is not broken all the way back to the dash gauge, the BRAKE LAMP warning light will switch itself Off after the bulb check mode in P2.
Even with the dead brake bulb, the BRAKE LAMP warning stays Off until you press on the brake pedal for the first time after the IG sw went into P2 .
For this kind of phenomenon, it is best to distinguish whether the issue is within the dash gauge or not.
For this purpose, ideally, you want to check the behaviour of ‘BRAKE LAMP’ warning circuit at the green connector directly on the gauge assy but not easy to access them.
Because of this, what I normally recommend the owners is to carry out the following test at the 22pin grey connector located at the forward left corner of the boot/trunk behind the carpet.
Please note that if you turn the IG sw into P2 while this 22pin connector is disconnected, you will trigger the ABS (and possibly the TCS, depending on the situation) warning light because the connection to the RR wheel speed sensor is disturbed.
Please make sure to erase the error code for the ABS (and TCS) controller(s) depending on the spec of your NSX.
For 91 - 99 models, you need to pull out the ABS 2,3 fuse or disconnect the battery in order to erase the error code.
For the later spec ABS (one body, 00+ models or if you have upgraded your ABS), you can’t erase the error code by pulling out the fuse or disconnecting the battery/controller.
You must follow the specific sequence involving the IG sw, brake pedal and the SCS terminal.
If you triggered the TCS warning light for some reason, 91 - 94 models will be handled at the same time when you pulled the ABS 2,3 fuse.
For the DBW model (95+), the TCS is done within the ECU so you will need to pull the CLOCK fuse addition to the ALB2,3 fuse in order to erase all of the error code.
Now back to the main topic......
First, please check the status of the female terminals at the 22pin connector. If you have spare 090 size mating male terminal, that's great.
If not, please use wooden pick or something non-conductive in order to prevent short circuit.
For some reason, Honda used non-WPC (Water Proof Connector) inside the boot.
As you know, inside the boot, condensation can happen and moisture + oxygen will eventually eat up part of the female terminal resulting in intermittent connection. You may see green debris around the edge of the terminal, like the patina corrosion.
You may find part of the female terminal falling out of the connector. Normally, it's the flat spring loaded section of the female terminal that gets corrosion and breaks off.
Because it's the main parts making good connection to the mating male terminal, once this happens, you are no longer going to get good connection and result in intermittent signal.
I saw BRAKE LAMP warning light triggered despite all light bulbs and bulb sockets in healthy condition, ABS/TCS lights triggered by the intermittent RR wheel speed sensor signal although the sensor itself was fine, etc.
All of these were due to the broken female terminal at this 22pin connector.
Next, locate the Orange/White (ORN/WHT) wire within this connector.
Out of 22pin, 1 (or 2) of them is (are) blank and 20 of them are placed in two rows.
Just below the locking tab, you will find two terminals placed in a single row.
One of them is the ORN/WHT wire.
Connect this ORN/WHT wire to the GND. You should have very good nearby GND like this.
It could be hard to see in the above photo but there is a mating male terminal inserted to the 22pin connector where the ORN/WHT wire is located and the black jumper wire with alligator clips is being used to connect the mating terminal to the GND point.
Carry out the above P2 (IG sw On) bulb check mode test.
Again no need to start the engine.
While having the ORN/WHT wire connected to the GND, it doesn’t really matter whether you touch the brake pedal or not because the BRAKE LAMP warning circuit is forced to switch itself Off by the connection of ORN/WHT wire to the GND (if the circuit is operating fine).
This is the same even with the dead brake bulb because the detection of the bulb failure will be ignored for the same reason above.
The light bulb failure detection module (the brown square parts) mounted on the each tail light assy is the one creating the GND connection of the ORN/WHT wire when all brake bulbs are fine.
For taking the photo, I disconnected this 22pin connector but if you want to avoid getting the ABS warning light like described above, you could GND the ORN/WHT wire without disconnecting the 22pin connector if you can insert something from the wire side (from the back) of the female terminal as long as you are 100% sure that nothing is disturbing the GND level by the ORN/WHT wire on the mating male terminal.
If your BRAKE LAMP warning light switches itself Off, then your problem is after this 22pin connector towards the tail light assy. Possibly the ORN/WHT wire was cut somewhere around the tail light assy.
If the warning light stays On, your issue is before this 22pin connector.
While it is very likely to be the gauge assy, there is still a chance of broken ORN/WHT wire between the gauge assy and this 22pin connector.
This is the reason why I initially recommended testing this at the green connector directly on the gauge assy as mentioned above.
Personally, I strongly recommend not to disable this BRAKE LAMP warning light.
Not only it’s for the safety reason for yourself as well as for the drivers in other cars behind you (in case you really have faulty brake light bulb) but also quite often, it’s the first sign of the capacitor leakage on the dash gauge.
The leaked acid will damage the BRAKE LAMP warning light circuit and despite all of the brake light bulbs in healthy condition with no obvious corrosion at the bulb socket, this warning light will be triggered intermittently.
If you ignore the first sign of the symptom or disable it by the means of black tape, GND wire, etc, it will eventually disappear.
Then, the damage will progress even further without being noticed and one day, you will start getting ‘door not closed’ indicator even when the door is fully closed.
Sometimes, you will get other ‘not closed’ indicator for the boot, eng glass hatch, hood together with or instead of the 'door not closed' one.
By this time, the damage is really serious and you could experience the small fire at the dash gauge.....
Hope it’s not the case for your issue but…..
(above 2 photos are courtesy of Mr Toyoizumi at T3TEC, Japan.)
Ideally, you want to take out the dash gauge and put it on the simulator.
In Japan, already more than 75 gauges went through the refurbishment service offered by T3TEC, Japan.
Kaz
For your reference, followings are the basic on how the BRAKE LAMP warning circuit works.
Without starting the engine AND without touching the Brake pedal, please put the IG sw into P2 (IG ON, lots of lights on the dash gauge).
The light bulb check mode is initiated including the BRAKE LAMP warning light and it will switch itself Off after a few seconds if the circuit is working fine.
This is regardless of whether you have dead brake bulb or not.
The brake light bulb failure detection is only triggered at the time when you operate the brake pedal.
Once the bulb failure is detected, it will be latched until you switch off the IG sw.
Therefore, if your BRAKE LAMP warning light stays On even before operating the brake pedal, you have a problem.
To be clear, as long as you have at least one good brake light bulb on the car AND the failure detection feedback wire (ORN/WHT, mentioned later) is not broken all the way back to the dash gauge, the BRAKE LAMP warning light will switch itself Off after the bulb check mode in P2.
Even with the dead brake bulb, the BRAKE LAMP warning stays Off until you press on the brake pedal for the first time after the IG sw went into P2 .
For this kind of phenomenon, it is best to distinguish whether the issue is within the dash gauge or not.
For this purpose, ideally, you want to check the behaviour of ‘BRAKE LAMP’ warning circuit at the green connector directly on the gauge assy but not easy to access them.
Because of this, what I normally recommend the owners is to carry out the following test at the 22pin grey connector located at the forward left corner of the boot/trunk behind the carpet.
Please note that if you turn the IG sw into P2 while this 22pin connector is disconnected, you will trigger the ABS (and possibly the TCS, depending on the situation) warning light because the connection to the RR wheel speed sensor is disturbed.
Please make sure to erase the error code for the ABS (and TCS) controller(s) depending on the spec of your NSX.
For 91 - 99 models, you need to pull out the ABS 2,3 fuse or disconnect the battery in order to erase the error code.
For the later spec ABS (one body, 00+ models or if you have upgraded your ABS), you can’t erase the error code by pulling out the fuse or disconnecting the battery/controller.
You must follow the specific sequence involving the IG sw, brake pedal and the SCS terminal.
If you triggered the TCS warning light for some reason, 91 - 94 models will be handled at the same time when you pulled the ABS 2,3 fuse.
For the DBW model (95+), the TCS is done within the ECU so you will need to pull the CLOCK fuse addition to the ALB2,3 fuse in order to erase all of the error code.
Now back to the main topic......
First, please check the status of the female terminals at the 22pin connector. If you have spare 090 size mating male terminal, that's great.
If not, please use wooden pick or something non-conductive in order to prevent short circuit.
For some reason, Honda used non-WPC (Water Proof Connector) inside the boot.
As you know, inside the boot, condensation can happen and moisture + oxygen will eventually eat up part of the female terminal resulting in intermittent connection. You may see green debris around the edge of the terminal, like the patina corrosion.
You may find part of the female terminal falling out of the connector. Normally, it's the flat spring loaded section of the female terminal that gets corrosion and breaks off.
Because it's the main parts making good connection to the mating male terminal, once this happens, you are no longer going to get good connection and result in intermittent signal.
I saw BRAKE LAMP warning light triggered despite all light bulbs and bulb sockets in healthy condition, ABS/TCS lights triggered by the intermittent RR wheel speed sensor signal although the sensor itself was fine, etc.
All of these were due to the broken female terminal at this 22pin connector.
Next, locate the Orange/White (ORN/WHT) wire within this connector.
Out of 22pin, 1 (or 2) of them is (are) blank and 20 of them are placed in two rows.
Just below the locking tab, you will find two terminals placed in a single row.
One of them is the ORN/WHT wire.
Connect this ORN/WHT wire to the GND. You should have very good nearby GND like this.
It could be hard to see in the above photo but there is a mating male terminal inserted to the 22pin connector where the ORN/WHT wire is located and the black jumper wire with alligator clips is being used to connect the mating terminal to the GND point.
Carry out the above P2 (IG sw On) bulb check mode test.
Again no need to start the engine.
While having the ORN/WHT wire connected to the GND, it doesn’t really matter whether you touch the brake pedal or not because the BRAKE LAMP warning circuit is forced to switch itself Off by the connection of ORN/WHT wire to the GND (if the circuit is operating fine).
This is the same even with the dead brake bulb because the detection of the bulb failure will be ignored for the same reason above.
The light bulb failure detection module (the brown square parts) mounted on the each tail light assy is the one creating the GND connection of the ORN/WHT wire when all brake bulbs are fine.
For taking the photo, I disconnected this 22pin connector but if you want to avoid getting the ABS warning light like described above, you could GND the ORN/WHT wire without disconnecting the 22pin connector if you can insert something from the wire side (from the back) of the female terminal as long as you are 100% sure that nothing is disturbing the GND level by the ORN/WHT wire on the mating male terminal.
If your BRAKE LAMP warning light switches itself Off, then your problem is after this 22pin connector towards the tail light assy. Possibly the ORN/WHT wire was cut somewhere around the tail light assy.
If the warning light stays On, your issue is before this 22pin connector.
While it is very likely to be the gauge assy, there is still a chance of broken ORN/WHT wire between the gauge assy and this 22pin connector.
This is the reason why I initially recommended testing this at the green connector directly on the gauge assy as mentioned above.
Personally, I strongly recommend not to disable this BRAKE LAMP warning light.
Not only it’s for the safety reason for yourself as well as for the drivers in other cars behind you (in case you really have faulty brake light bulb) but also quite often, it’s the first sign of the capacitor leakage on the dash gauge.
The leaked acid will damage the BRAKE LAMP warning light circuit and despite all of the brake light bulbs in healthy condition with no obvious corrosion at the bulb socket, this warning light will be triggered intermittently.
If you ignore the first sign of the symptom or disable it by the means of black tape, GND wire, etc, it will eventually disappear.
Then, the damage will progress even further without being noticed and one day, you will start getting ‘door not closed’ indicator even when the door is fully closed.
Sometimes, you will get other ‘not closed’ indicator for the boot, eng glass hatch, hood together with or instead of the 'door not closed' one.
By this time, the damage is really serious and you could experience the small fire at the dash gauge.....
Hope it’s not the case for your issue but…..
(above 2 photos are courtesy of Mr Toyoizumi at T3TEC, Japan.)
Ideally, you want to take out the dash gauge and put it on the simulator.
In Japan, already more than 75 gauges went through the refurbishment service offered by T3TEC, Japan.
Kaz
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Thank you #Kaz-kzukNA1 for this very thorough explanation and work around. I will look into this today and report back.
#Kaz-kzukNA1 . I removed the ground off the the brake light sensor from the passenger side rear brake light cluster White/Green wire. I rolled thru your diagnostics of checking the pins in the 22 pin connector on the rear firewall, all were good. I grounded the Orange/White wire to a known good ground, still got the brake warning light. So I'm afraid it is in the dash cluster as it remains on all the time now.
Does anyone know of a stateside service to repair these #BrianK or anyone else that does this service? I'm not quite ready for a replacement, or the wonderful looking S2K replacement service that is in its infancy state. Thanks for all the help.http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/member.php/25737-Kaz-kzukNA1
Does anyone know of a stateside service to repair these #BrianK or anyone else that does this service? I'm not quite ready for a replacement, or the wonderful looking S2K replacement service that is in its infancy state. Thanks for all the help.http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/member.php/25737-Kaz-kzukNA1
I did try two more items. I pulled apart the wire sensors at the Master Cylinder which measures low fluid level in the hydraulics. Nope, no change in the warning light.
So I went into the center counsel and looked at the sensor that attached the hand brake for any crimps, pinches or bad connections. Nope, it's fine too.
Guess I'll wait on BrianK to respond or Kaz to see what it would cost from T3TEC to get this rebuilt and how long/much it will take. I've exhausted everything but trying a known good '91 gauge cluster.
So I went into the center counsel and looked at the sensor that attached the hand brake for any crimps, pinches or bad connections. Nope, it's fine too.
Guess I'll wait on BrianK to respond or Kaz to see what it would cost from T3TEC to get this rebuilt and how long/much it will take. I've exhausted everything but trying a known good '91 gauge cluster.
The guy I know used T3TEC so I could get their details for you unfortunately he is busy at the Tokyo Auto Salon for the next week and a bit. If you want pm your email and I can put you in touch
PM sent. Thanks.
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