Manual vs Automatic transmission

nsxsupra

nsxsupra

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Are the newer automatics really that good? I am not talking about sequentially type of manual transmissions, like Ferrari F1 or BMW SMG.

BMW's steptronic automatic fround in 335i are supposely able to blip the throttle during downshifts and suppose to shift almost as fast as human or faster?

What about the automatic in McLaren SLR, AMG E55/63, SL55s?
 
nsxsupra said:
Are the newer automatics really that good? I am not talking about sequentially type of manual transmissions, like Ferrari F1 or BMW SMG.

BMW's steptronic automatic fround in 335i are supposely able to blip the throttle during downshifts and suppose to shift almost as fast as human or faster?

What about the automatic in McLaren SLR, AMG E55/63, SL55s?
Click to expand...

I drove a Nissan Altima rental car a few months ago and the 6 speed automatic was very impressive. In fully automatic it was very smooth and when using the "Sport Shift" function it was almost like driving a sequential shift manual. Flipping the lever to upshift or downshift was like shifting manually, no lag, no slip. I have an 02 TL-S with the 5 speed auto and compared to the Nissan's, it is a piece of junk. I also drove a Mazda 3 a couple of weeks ago with their 4 speed auto with "Sport Shift" and while better than my TL, nowhere near as good as the Altima.

Miner
 
i dont know maybe its just me but a automatic in a sports car just boggles my mind. With the stick you get that feeling of being one with the car you know, you are controlling it, you are damn near piloting the rocket so to speak. With an auto you just stick it in gear and go. blah
 
Ski_Banker said:
Altimas rock!! :biggrin:


BTW, I'm impressed you even used 2nd gear in a rental car... I never have!
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I'm getting old. A buddy and I used to test parking brakes on rental cars.

As for what Eclipsed says about being one with the car, I agree to a point, but there are times when an automatic is the way to go. Being in the NW, or anyplace with mountains, sometimes it's a real challenge. A good 'Sport Shift' is a nice balance and other than clutching, is almost as natural. A true Magnetti Marelli semi-automatic gearbox would be even better!

Miner
 
I always wanted a 6-speed manual because 4-speed auto's performance always sucked in comparison. Ie Corvette. Now the vette has a 6-speed auto that is every bit as fast as the manual.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 7-speed auto vette with 6-performance gears and 7 as cruise. That car will be faster than the manual..

I think the NSX with a 6-speed auto with true paddles and the 290HP motor would have been lots of fun.

We are now seeing 7-speed from merc and 8-speed from lexus... no telling where that will stop, but the performance will be better than a manual pretty soon.

The SMG M5 is faster than the 6-speed.
 
nsxsupra said:
I am at bmw ordering a car. Test drove 335i 6spd auto. It feel smoother than smg.

Freaking tough decision
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For a sedan, I'd definitely go with the Automatic.

Always a thought in the back of my mind with a sedan is towing something, like a small trailer, jet skis or u-haul. Can't beat an automatic for towing; which is just murder on a clutch.

Miner
 
NetViper said:
I think the NSX with a 6-speed auto with true paddles and the 290HP motor would have been lots of fun.

We are now seeing 7-speed from merc and 8-speed from lexus... no telling where that will stop, but the performance will be better than a manual pretty soon.

The SMG M5 is faster than the 6-speed.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your feedback.

Your responds helped me with my near official decision.

I just got back from testing driving both. Man, didn't help much:(, because I like each other just that much more. I think regardless which I went with I would still want the other.

The 6spd automatic shifts beautifully, very muscle, very V8 NA like of powerband, kinda like bpu Supra. I love it. It took time for me getting used to. A bit nervous with manual mode shifting, since I am not familar with it yet. It is fast and blip throttle beautifully. I am not as in control though, because I am unfamilar with this type of transmission. Inside line did tested the 6spd 0~60mph in 4.8sec. I kinda want to experience those AMG monsters and see how well the auto tranny shifts in manual mode on those.

The manual made me felt right at home. I can feel each rev, knowing exactly which gear and rpm I am in at all time. 100% connected. I think it is a win win choice.

Needless to day, I placed my order. They found a AW for me in configuration I wanted, if I don't change my mind on transmission choice. I will pick up the car on Thursday. If I do change my mind, I have to wait for 2 weeks. Don't want to spoil official decision yet.

How about dyno hp/tq numbers between the two transmission? I still have 24hours left to change transmission choice.
 
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Rear Wheel HP numbers for the automatic are probably a touch lower. Both the auto and SMG require the hydraulic pump instead of your left leg, and usually an automatic's drums and clutch packs suck some energy more than a simple set of gears.

SMGs when they were first introduced in the race cars didn't result in more power, just faster, more reliable shifts that improved performance. As I remember, the Ferraris had a greater than 50% failure rate due to issues with the hydraulic and electronic complexity. Of course, that was more than 10 years ago and Magnetti Marelli has much improved the system.

After rebuilding my manual due to snap ring failure, I'm convinced an SMG for an NSX is possible, just 3 simple hydraulic linear actuators and pump. Then about 50 lbs of computers to control the 3 actuators.:smile:

Miner
 
Car & Driver artical

Highlights of the article:

Even knowing what we know about the engine and tranny, we were still surprised just how quick the 335i automatic is. Indeed, this particular Arctic Metallic 335i coupe was the quickest 3-series coupe we've ever strapped our instruments to, and it also ended up right on top of an E46 M3, with 0-to-60-mph passes in 4.9 seconds and 100 mph in 12.1. The quarter-mile happened in a blistering 13.4 seconds at 106 mph, 0.2 second and 1 mph quicker than the 335i manual we tested last year.

335i's ZF-sourced six-speed automatic is among the world's very best transmissions, and we can't heap enough praise on it. Responsive and quick to act, it is the perfect autobox for this kind of car. In normal automatic mode, shifts are virtually invisible, but the character changes dramatically when prompted. Deputy editor Dave VanderWerp says, "Full-throttle downshifts are quite severe, but to me, that's fine when I'm pushing the pedal all the way to the floor. The automatic generally does a single multigear kickdown instead of stopping off at other ratios along the way." We also noted snappy rev-matching throttle blips when downshifting using the manumatic function (or paddles), and in the sport-shift mode, it eagerly takes the liberty of automatically downshifting during braking to set you higher in the meat of the power band whenever your right foot returns to the other pedal.

2007 BMW 335i Coupe Automatic - Specifications
(continued)


2007 BMW 335i Coupe Automatic
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 4-passenger, 2-door coupe

PRICE AS TESTED: $49,675 (base price: $42,850)

ENGINE TYPE: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve inline-6, aluminum block and head, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 182 cu in, 2979cc
Power (SAE net): 300 bhp @ 5800 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 300 lb-ft @ 1400 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 6-speed automatic with manumatic shifting

DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 108.7 in Length: 180.6 in Width: 70.2 in Height: 54.1 in
Curb weight: 3584 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.9 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.1 sec
Zero to 140 mph: 26.7 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 5.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.4 sec @ 106 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 145 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 156 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 20/29 mpg
C/D observed: 18 mpg


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My brief review for two BMW steptronics:

I have been driving a loaner E92 328i all day today, can't wait to hop back to my car after the goodie is installed. I don't like the atuo in 328i, very lazy. I was kinda shocked by the difference, I thought they were suppose to be the same. So I did a little bit of research an found that:

The 335i has the ZF auto built in Germany. It shifts very fast and blips the throttle on downshifts. Porsche 997 Turbo's tiptronic is also a ZF built auto. The 335i with steptronic actually have better fuel economy over manual.

The 328i has GM built tranny. It does not blip the throttle and is slower shifting.
 
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I don't think there's any doubt that modern automatics can be terrific. It all comes down to personal preference. I like the clutch and I like to shift, so no automatics for me please. :)
 
nsxsupra said:
Are the newer automatics really that good? I am not talking about sequentially type of manual transmissions, like Ferrari F1 or BMW SMG.

BMW's steptronic automatic fround in 335i are supposely able to blip the throttle during downshifts and suppose to shift almost as fast as human or faster?

What about the automatic in McLaren SLR, AMG E55/63, SL55s?
Click to expand...

Mclaren SLR is similar to the Ferrari F1. The biggest downfall is the all the bugs that need to be worked out. This is still fairly new technology. Take Maserati for example notorious for eating clutchs 10k miles in SMG Auto cars, even BMW steptronic transmissions have failed and is very known fact. X5 transmissions are made in Germany but are known for slushbox issues and the X3 is a gm transmission. Porsche who pioneered the tiptronic which lead to the smg's and F1 transmission burrowed from Porsche race division.

For the time most cars under 60k with SMG or Steptronic have warranties, nightmare out of warranty. That is why most people prefer manual to computer assisted shifting unless is insured.
 
NetViper said:
We are now seeing 7-speed from merc and 8-speed from lexus... no telling where that will stop, but the performance will be better than a manual pretty soon.
Click to expand...

I think we're already there with DCTs, which is why they didn't even bother with a manual for the GT-R. I also agree that we'll see more 7 and 8 speed cars thanks to DCTs.
 
NetViper said:
I always wanted a 6-speed manual because 4-speed auto's performance always sucked in comparison. Ie Corvette. Now the vette has a 6-speed auto that is every bit as fast as the manual.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 7-speed auto vette with 6-performance gears and 7 as cruise. That car will be faster than the manual..

I think the NSX with a 6-speed auto with true paddles and the 290HP motor would have been lots of fun.

We are now seeing 7-speed from merc and 8-speed from lexus... no telling where that will stop, but the performance will be better than a manual pretty soon.

The SMG M5 is faster than the 6-speed.
Click to expand...

That's so funny because for the longest time the Corvette autos were the way to go.

SMG not auto.

Also 7 spd from Merc sucks! My wife has it in her AMG and they give you shift paddles and all that jazz ,but you still have little control over shifts!
 
Deltron Zero said:
I think we're already there with DCTs, which is why they didn't even bother with a manual for the GT-R. I also agree that we'll see more 7 and 8 speed cars thanks to DCTs.
Click to expand...

Good point Double disc semi automatics was pioneered by Andolphe Kégresse just before WWll now sold mostly by VW group/Audi, but Porsche was using this in their 956/962 lemans cars also burrowed by Bugatti Veyron. PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplung) should be coming out on 08 for Porsche cars. Getrag has also developed DCT transaxel.

NsXMas Mitsubishi is offering a magnesium paddle shifter.
 

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