Manual Shift Lesson

[Roadrunner]

I've been through both and to me it depends on what you are driving and road conditions.
When I was driving 1963 dated tanker fire trucks, down shifting and double clutching were the rule of the day. I still double clutch the NSX if I'm downshifting just due to old habits and a smoother gear blend.
With the NSX approaching a stop, I do coast in neutral and use the brakes. Downshifting seems a waste of clutch and engine wear time.
Of course, with a truck you would maintain your downshift in case of brake failure, you'd at least be slowing down before impact!

Flames welcomed and encouraged!
So many driving techniques. All the instructors should be fired!!

 

[NetViper]

The NSX is a VERY easy car to drive. I say just learn in the NSX.

 

[O-Ace]

Originally posted by fangtl:
Okay now you've confused me, was I taught wrong from the very begnning?

Why use the engine to slow down the car when you have the brakes?

You don't have to downshift, but don't pop it in neutral either. Say, you're in 4th gear and approaching a stop light. Just leave it in 4th and use the brakes to slow down. Your RPMs will drop, and when you've slowed down enough (around 1500 RPM or so), then cluth in and put it in neutral and come to a complete stop.

At least that's how I was taught. Maybe I'll make a small instructional video on shifting when I get my NSX, and put it on RacingFlix

------------------
2001 QuickSilver Corvette Coupe - Not Stock [503 RWHP, 545 RWTQ]

2002 Black Acura 3.2 TL/S

www.RacingFlix.com

 

[TigerNSX]

Originally posted by O-Ace:
Maybe I'll make a small instructional video on shifting when I get my NSX, and put it on RacingFlix

Yes, please

 

[silverNEEK]

If, when deaccelerating, you simply lay off the throttle so that the engine slows you down you use zero fuel. The fuel injection shuts off temporarily until you are about to stall. The computer sees that the car is not accelerating (+) so the movement of the gears, tires, etc keep the engine turning. A simple way to save gas. This is why sometimes when you lighten your fly wheel you can stall at an intersection when doing this. The revs drop so fast (due to your lightened flywheel) that the fuel injection cant turn on quick enough, and you stall.

 

[Midnight_Raven]

Hey I have a question about shifting. (Remember I have no driving experience)
I seen this in a game but not sure if this realy happens.
Okay now my question.
Does the gear your in affect the distance that your car will stop in.
Cause in the game that I mentioned, you have to downshift down every gear and if you don't the car seems like it doesn't want to stop as fast. (This happens during high speed driving in the game)
If you understand what I'm saying then maybe you can help me out.

Thanks for any hint of clue.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Learn to drive the car you plan on driving. I know that sounds dumb but just about every car has a different feel to the clutch. Some are hydraulic while others are manual. If you are going to learn to drive one might as well do it on the car you have.

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ALL NSX
92 RED/BLACK 5-SPEED

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Midnight_Raven:
Does the gear your in affect the distance that your car will stop in.

Yes, if you're not using the brakes. No, if you're braking hard - which is what you should be doing if you're trying to minimize your braking distance.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 30 November 2002).]

 

[Auraraptor]

Originally posted by Lud:
Rev matching is not a way to double clutch, though as part of double clutching you will typically rev match.

People can go on for days about the nuances of all this, but in short...

Rev matching means while you have the transmission between gears during a shift, you use the throttle to match the RPM of the engine to the RPM it will be when you put it into whichever gear you are getting ready to shift into. This is typically done by "blipping" the throttle. See "heel and toe" below.

Double clutching (aka double declutching) is, in my opinion, not really needed in a modern car with a syncrhonized tranny, but you can still do it and some will argue it offers benefits on the race track because it matches shaft speeds, etc. in addition to engine speed. If you ever drive some commercial vehicles, a really old car or truck, or a vehicle with a blown synchro, it can be a very handy skill to know. Basically you:

1) Get off the throttle and disengage the clutch (pedal down).

2) Shift the transmission to neutral

3) Engage the clutch (pedal up).

4) Blip the throttle to match shaft speed to speed of new gear. (see heel and toe below)

5) Disengage clutch (pedal down)

6) Shift from neutral into desired gear

7) Engage clutch (pedal up) and apply throttle as needed

1 - 3 can be done quickly or slowly
4 - 6 must be done quickly
If 7 is done quickly, the engine will be 'rev-matched' to the rest of the drivetrain


Heel & Toe is the somewhat mislabeled technique whereby you use your right foot to both brake and blip the throttle at the same time. I say it is somewhat mislabeled because most people in most modern cars use the side of their foot more than the actual heel to blip the throttle, but do whatever works best for you. To heel and toe, you put the forward part of your foot securely on the right side of the brake and press the brake to slow the car. While doing that, you roll your foot to the right to blip the throttle. The exact position of your feet during all this depends on the car and pedal placement, the size of your feet/shoes, and your driving position. This is how you can double clutch and rev match when it counts most - under braking as you go into a turn.

This all takes practice. I suggest starting with heel-toe rev matching, then work up to double clutching.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 27 November 2002).]

Why cant you blip the throttle with the clutch depressed/disengaend? Is that bad? Thats how I have been double clutching, and will stop if its bad for the car (duh)

BTW, I still dont have starting from a stop right, some explain the g-spot and all. this is what I do: simitainoutsly depress throttle and release clutch, light on throttle (1500rpm) slow on clutch, the car shudders still which is annoying.

I went for a drive with someone who could drive a manual (though never an nsc before) and he kept the rpms at 2000 as he releaseed the clutch, no shudder but i guess more clutch wear. comments?

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Resident E38er

-97 NSX "Nina"

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Originally posted by Auraraptor:
Why cant you blip the throttle with the clutch depressed/disengaend?

You mean as in skipping step 3 & 5 in Luds description?

If the clutch is not engaged when you blip the throttle, then you are not accelerating the gearset. When it comes time to engage the gear, the synchros will still have to accelerate the gearset to the appropriate speed. Without steps 3 & 5, its not double clutching.

Is that bad? Thats how I have been double clutching, and will stop if its bad for the car (duh)

No its not bad... you are just rev matching and not double clutching.

You can play around with shifting into first gear to illustrate this. When traveling faster than 25mph (on my gearbox anyway), I find it difficult/impossible to shift into first gear. No amount of rev matching, pressure on the shift lever, or time (waiting for the synchros) will help. But, if you double clutch and spin the gearset to the right RPM (~5000 in this case), you will find that it slots immediately into gear with no resistance. If you skip steps 3 & 5 as described above, then you will find that you still cannot put it into gear.

 

[Auraraptor]

thnks Joe!

Now all i have to do if fig out how to start from a stop

------------------
Resident E38er

-97 NSX "Nina"

 

[Lud]

JoeSchmoe is absolutely correct - if you skip steps 3 and 5 you are not double clutching. It's not bad, it's just not double clutching (which as I said in my opinion isn't really needed anyway).

Starting from a stop is simple if you remember one thing: You shouldn't do anything slowly with the clutch.

This is not to say you should slam it down and then just take your foot off it to release it, but all the clutch work should be done quickly, smoothly and deliberately.

Anytime you are holding or "feathering" the clutch right at the engagement point while you give the car throttle, you are burning the clutch.

It's possible to launch the car at a steady 2000 RPM, but that's not really a good technique. One of two things is going to happen: either you burn the clutch by releasing it slowly or you are going to have a rather abrupt start.

 

[Auraraptor]

Interesting.

When I try being quick (but not dropping) the car shudders quite bad. Does this imply I need to depress the throttle more?

How fast is your clutch engagemnet from a stop? ~1/2 sec? I take a good second to a second and a half.

Let me get this straight:

1. feather to ~2000rpms
2. release clutch
3. as soon as it grabs, throttle?

I try it and end up stalling out every time with the "as the tach falls after the blip" technique. Whould this be because I am not engaging fast enough or becuase I am not applying throttle in an adquate amount when it engages?


BTW thanks for the help!

BTW anyone nearby Hazleton PA that would be free in the coming weeks (anytime, night day weekend) that would be willing to come with me for a drive? Help is much appreciated!


___________
Auraraptor

The NSX owner who still cant start from a start well

 

[Roadrunner]

Auraraptor, I see you have the same year as mine. Great! The clutch is single disc on these and should not shudder as much as you describe.
My car is as easy as a Civic to clutch. Very civil and light.
Get with another NSX'er in your area or even someone with another Japanese made manual drive tranny. The clutch should be somewhat similar and get them to coach you.
Even let them try your clutch. It should handle smoothly.
Expect a problem if it shudders for an experienced driver.
Good Luck!

 

[tewills]

Has anyone considered or attended a driving school at a race track to improve their driving ability? What was the experience like? Was it worth the $$$? What kinds of things did you learn? I am guessing that they may be able to help anyone drive a manual better.

 

[Lud]

I really don't know how to tell someone how to use a clutch beyond what I've said. Perhaps someone else is better at describing it.

I don't know exactly how long I take to clutch... I just do it. The whole clutch pedal action may be a second or two depending what I'm doing, but the actual transition from disengaged to engaged is very quick. I do not hold it at the friction point - I'm either engaging or disengaging.

Now in some situations most people feather the clutch a little, such as starting from a stop up a steep hill. Don't sweat that too much (though you should try to minimize it). I'm just talking about regular starting and driving.

In general you do not want to be sit there giving the car throttle while you are still holding the clutch at the friction point. That is what will wear your clutch out prematurely.

The general technique of blipping the throttle to around 1500-2000 RPM and engaging the clutch and throttle as the revs fall down between 1500 and 1200 RPM is really to get around the shudder on the twin-disc clutches. Again you do not "hold" the clutch right at the friction point with this technique, you just engage it and give it throttle. This technique will also work on a single disc clutch ('97+ stock clutch or some aftermarket clutches), it's just not really necessary.

If you are stalling, you you are either too late or too light on the throttle, or both.

The single disc clutches shouldn't shudder too much. Just to make sure... shudder is felt in the clutch and as sort of a vibration in the drivetrain. It is different from the "jerky" engagement (where the car lurches back and forth) many people experience when they are first learning to drive a clutch. If you have a lot of clutch shudder on a '97, I'm not sure what is causing it offhand. I don't have a stock clutch in my car to try and duplicate the problem either. I guess it's possible you have spot burned the friction material on the clutch which could cause uneven engagement, but I would have to drive it to get a feel for it, or disassemble the clutch to see if the discs are burned (which is expensive).

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by tewills:
Has anyone considered or attended a driving school at a race track to improve their driving ability? What was the experience like? Was it worth the $$$? What kinds of things did you learn? I am guessing that they may be able to help anyone drive a manual better.

Performance driving education events and club track events assume you know how to use the clutch and drive the car.

A true racing school may help you work on things like rev matching, double clutching, threshold braking, etc. but they also typically expect you know how to fundamentally use a clutch and drive a car.

They will ABSOLUTELY teach you to become a better driver though! Everyone who has a high-end sports car should try some kind of high performance drivers education event. Heck everybody should do it regardless of their car, but PARTICUARLY owners of sports cars.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Auraraptor:
Let me get this straight:

1. feather to ~2000rpms
2. release clutch
3. as soon as it grabs, throttle?

I try it and end up stalling out every time with the "as the tach falls after the blip" technique. Whould this be because I am not engaging fast enough or becuase I am not applying throttle in an adquate amount when it engages?

Originally posted by Lud:
If you are stalling, you you are either too late or too light on the throttle, or both.

A thought, and a suggestion.

When I was learning to drive a manual transmission, I found (after it was pointed out) that, as I started letting up the clutch slowly, as soon as the car started to move forward, I let it out completely, before it had fully engaged, and this would stall the car.

My suggestion is this: You need to get a feel for the progressive nature of the clutch's "sweet spot" as you are letting it out from a stop. Take the car to an empty parking lot to practice. Starting from a stop, with the clutch in, rev the car to 2000 RPM and keep it there. SLOWLY let out the clutch. As soon as the car starts to ease forward, press the clutch back in - to give yourself a chance to see what happens. Then slowly let it out a little bit, and let the car move slowly forward, but don't let it out all the way - again, to give yourself a chance to see that you can vary the speed of the car based on where the clutch pedal is. Work the clutch at various settings with the engine at 2000 RPM, and you can see that the car can move anywhere from 0 mph (with the clutch fully depressed) to 10 mph (with the clutch full released), and anywhere in between, to see how it's the clutch, not the gas pedal, that varies the speed.

When you start the car from a stop, what you're really doing is using the clutch pedal's progressive nature to control the speed as it increases from 0 mph to about 7 mph, and above that point, the clutch should be fully let out, and you control the speed with the gas pedal.

This is something that nobody ever told me when I was learning stick, because they were too busy yelling "let out the clutch" and "get on the gas", neither of which made sense since treating the clutch as an "on/off" mechanism almost guaranteed that the car would lurch forward and the clutch would either catch or, more likely, stall.

Hope that helps.

 

[Lud]

Ken has some good ideas and points. Above I am talking strictly about how to drive, not how to learn. Teaching is not my strong point.

As Ken says the clutch is not an "on off" button. When I say I am either engaging or disengaging, that doesn't mean it happens absolutely instantly from a dead stop, but that I do not sit there and hold the clutch at the friction point for several seconds with the engine at a few thousand RPM until the car slowly starts going. You are timing a couple things to happen all in a very short period of time. As the clutch engages, you give it throttle and continue to release the clutch. This is done all as one quick fluid motion once you know how to do it, but it may be easier to learn by breaking it down into steps.

You must have a feel for that friction point or you will never quite get the hang of using a clutch correctly. Ken's idea of playing around with it in a parking lot is good. I might even recommend trying to get a feel for it at first without touching the throttle so you have only one thing to worry about.

Just find a flat parking lot, press the clutch down, put the car in gear, and slowly release the clutch. When you get to the friction point on the clutch the revs will come down and the car will move forward a little. Just keep easing it back and forth to get a feel for it. As long as you don't release the clutch too quickly the NSX has enough power at idle to slowly accelerate with no additional throttle (yes, I have done it).

Once you can take the car from a dead stop to idling slowly along in 1st gear without ever touching the throttle, you have probably got a pretty good feel for the friction pooint. Then start using the throttle a little as Ken suggested to see how the two interact.

Feathering it at the friction point is NOT how you use a clutch to drive the car, but it is probably a worthwhile exercise if you are having a problem with smooth engagement of the clutch. Again, when you have the hang of it, this all takes place fluidly and quickly.

While slipping the clutch does cause wear, at such low RPMs you aren't going to hurt anything doing these exercises for a few minutes. A few minutes does not mean half an hour. If you want to experiment with it for a long time, take breaks to let the clutch cool down every few minutes. If you smell anything bad, stop immediately and let it cool down for a while.

 

[JerryW]

Here's an odd question. I've been driving the same crap car with a manual transmission for about 10 years now and since it is a crap car, I never worried about it, but if I'm going to be driving a $80K car I figure I should find out if it is a bad habit.

I've found that it is easier for me to get started rolling from a stop if I keep pressure on the gear-shift while it is in 1st gear. Nothing too heavy, I just push forward on the knob with maybe 10-15lbs of pressure. I don't know why it makes things better, maybe it is helping me to keep my body better balanced with my feet on the clutch and accelerator, or maybe it is just psychological. But I do know that when I lent my crap car to a friend for a few months, and it was his first stick in about 5 years, he found that doing the same thing helped him to make smoother starts too.

So, anyone else do this? Any idea if it is harmful to the transmission (my crap car's only got about 50K miles on despite being almost 10 years old, and no sign of clutch or other related problems).

 

[nsxtasy]

Thanks, Lud, for the additional explanation. Yes, I was advising this as a way of learning to get a feel for the friction point of the clutch. Once you get the hang of it, as Lud notes, it becomes a very fluid motion, with the coordinated interaction of the two pedals.

JerryW, I've never done that and never heard of it. As far as I know, the gear shift should be either in a gear, or in neutral, and you should do all your shifting with the clutch pressed down, so the gear isn't engaged to the drivetrain at the time you're shifting. I have no idea why applying pressure to the gear shift knob would do anything for you, other than psychological or balancing effects that you mention.

 

[Lud]

Resting your hand on the shift knob, as many people do just as a place to rest their hand, leads to premature wear on some transmission components. Pressing on it is even worse, but probably done for much shorter periods of time.

Unless you have a problem with your transmission, there is absolutely no reason to touch the shift knob other than to shift gears.

 

[JerryW]

Thanks guys - just so its clear, I only put the pressure on the shifter for the few seconds while engaging the clutch into 1st gear from a stop. After that, hand is only on the shifter to actually shift and the clutch is always fully disengaged when shifting through any of the other gears.