Low grip tires... a better way to improve?

[jtower]

at a hpde a couple of years ago i corded two toyo 888 on my spec e30 so i borrowed a couple of bfg r1 from a friend. he said they were old and heat cycled out so i put them on the front thinking that understeer was safer than oversteer. but they still had noticeably more grip than the 888s and my car became a tail happy monster - and it was an epiphany, i was reborn as a driver that day. i had previously been timid, afraid of oversteer (possibly a result of a lifetime of fwd) but forced to deal with whether i liked it or not, i discovered that it's really nothing to be afraid of once understood. admittedly, the e30 is more "friendly" wrt oversteer than a nsx but the principle remains the same.

so by all means, set your car up to be "looser" - bigger front tires, smaller rears, alter the toe, play with tire pressures, run less grippy tires, etc. getting comfortable with higher rear slip angles will not only make you faster but increase your enjoyment of the car.

 

[docjohn]

Lol,I never understood how Tanner gets so many different speed show gigs

 

[9doors]

unless you guys are pro drifters or experienced racers:wink: sliding around turns at your friendly hpde is the slow way around,grip not slip.....:smile:

This is one of the things Coz taught me... :smile:

 

[Sennansx81]

Nice videos, loved the last one...

 

[Hapa88]

I think you are talking about my videos. When the back end is sliding you NEVER want to "get off the gas". You can hold it steady. You can slightly increase it to put weight on the rear. You can slightly decrease it if the rear tires are actually spinning. But when you "get off the gas" the weight shifts forward, no weight on the rear and see ya - around you go like a top.

That is called "drop throttle oversteer". Go hot into a corner, drop the gas, weight shifts forward, rear comes around. You can actually play with this by getting off the gas, letting the car rotate and right back on the gas to transfer the weight back to the rear and stop the rotation. But you don't want to do this when the car is already sliding.

I understand that completely. However, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what happens for me based on my experience at the track with this vehicle. I will of course stay on the gas up until about a 20 degree angle if it starts to break loose. However, if I get to about 30 degrees, I left off the throttle a bit and it "snaps" back into place (the direction I'm counter-steering) and I gradually add more gas and drive out of it.

I've yet to completely spin this car around doing the above method. The one time I did spin around completely, I was attempting to add more throttle and drive out of it. That resulted in a spin.

I agree with Jim on this one, though this is the first time I've heard it called "drop throttle oversteer".. I always knew it as "lift-off oversteer", but it's the same thing.

What Hijacker explains seems to be the fine tuning throttle modulation you do midcorner to get the car to rotate a little more (or in the instances that oversteer occurs at a slower speed). Every time you "lift off" the throttle midcorner, weight transfers forward decreasing the grip on the rear tires giving you that oversteer. If you don't catch the oversteer with more throttle quickly, it'll spin for sure (unless you're going relatively slow).

I learned a lot on a rainy day track day... The cars travel at a much slower speed and the snap oversteer onsets at a much slower pace. It's not as surprising and I highly recommend experimenting in those conditions.

Lot of good footwork is shown here.. especially the fine tuning throttle modulation and quick/small steering inputs Jim & Hijacker talked about.
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[R13]

Lol,I never understood how Tanner gets so many different speed show gigs

He's the only host they have that can both A) Actually Drive and B) Enunciate :biggrin:


Also, I still say at least try autocrossing a few times. It's a much safer environment in which to deliberately find the limits of the car, and how it reacts when traction is lost at slow speed. Cone marks wipe of or buff out, wall marks do not.

If you don't find and exceed the limits of the car on purpose to see how it behaves when the threshold is crossed, then you're not going to be as well prepared to react if you reach those limits unintentionally. Also, since you will now know exactly where that limit is, you'll be less likely to unintentionally exceed it.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

small correction at 12:40.
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bigger correction at 10:53
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this is at a relatively small track (go kart track), I'm not an autoXer nor a drifter, so excuse my rusty car correction/dancing skill.
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and to OP... forget about mods and play with your tire pressure, find the best pressure at your comfort. and keep driving your car at 9/10th. increase your pace gradually, you will be comfortable with the speed and the track. you will be soon 'getting' it.

 

[RYU]

Question for you folks who have done the rear non-compliance. Does it get rid of the floaty rear end feeling? It's the feeling mid turn at high speed when you feel the front grabbing just fine but the rear starts to rotate/roll in a way that feels disconnected. I understand the dynamic toe change issue just not sure how that translates into the car's dynamics quite yet.

That is the only thing about the NSX that makes the rear feel uneasy. Sometimes it's rather unnerving. It's easy to watch out for when you know to expect it but it's still something I wouldn't consider pleasant.

I'm hoping the non-compliance kit will get rid of this. I can "drift" my pickup with more control than my NSX!

 

[CL65 Captain]

Question for you folks who have done the rear non-compliance. Does it get rid of the floaty rear end feeling? It's the feeling mid turn at high speed when you feel the front grabbing just fine but the rear starts to rotate/roll in a way that feels disconnected. I under the dynamic toe change just not sure how that translates into the car's dynamics quite yet.

That is the only thing about the NSX that makes the rear feel uneasy. Sometimes it's rather unnerving. It's easy to watch out for when you know to expect it but it's still something I wouldn't consider pleasant.

I'm hoping the non-compliance kit will get rid of this. I can "drift" my pickup with more control than my NSX!

yes. Plain and simple you can definitely feel the difference.

 

[Honcho]

I read Dave's initial post and also thought of the Senna video. You can see him make the correction in the 130R turn- he gets the right rear wheel on the curb/grass, which looks wet/slick. The car starts to rotate, but he corrects it immediately with a very quick movement. I also noticed that whenever the car gets out of sorts, he keeps his foot planted on the gas.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I also have not done any of the non-compliance upgrades, although its high on my list to do once I better understand those mods.

Hijacker you should sign up for the group buy on Dave's non-compliance parts, we only need one more guy to get the group buy pricing. It's the best stuff and at a good discount depending on what you buy. I've posted in the group buy section.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So I am confused a bit are you guys saying running R compound or slicks WILL or WILL NOT help me improve? Seems like it wouldn't because the tire grips a lot, I am going even faster which makes me more nervous, and if I go over the limit it's a much bigger f'up to have to recover. But you guys are saying the extra grip gives extra confidence and that will help me more?

 

[RYU]

Hijacker you should sign up for the group buy on Dave's non-compliance parts, we only need one more guy to get the group buy pricing. It's the best stuff and at a good discount depending on what you buy. I've posted in the group buy section.

+1

It's nice to lock down this issue and know what the fix is. It's the last piece of my NSX puzzle. I think this will go down as one of the mods I wish I did sooner.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

So I am confused a bit are you guys saying running R compound or slicks WILL or WILL NOT help me improve? Seems like it wouldn't because the tire grips a lot, I am going even faster which makes me more nervous, and if I go over the limit it's a much bigger f'up to have to recover. But you guys are saying the extra grip gives extra confidence and that will help me more?

with the Z1 both me and a very talented young nsx driver proved that mild R compound tires (Nitto NT01) only has 1 second advantage to the Z1. However the Nt01 gives you more stable tire temp and grip thoughout the whole track day, whereras Z1 do warm itself up (for me, I don't get consistent lap time comparing to when i run R comp.)

For learning purposes, consistency is quite important imo, hence my comment on your tire pressure above.

i have never had a chance to drive the Real R comp (BFG R1, Hoosiers or the michellins.) However, RA1, R888 and NT01 is quite forgiving at breakaway. Even with how loud my car is, I can still hear my NT01 before it gradually break loose.

BTW, I know it's hard, but spinning at street driving in wet is quite different than you driving at the track catching a slide. (too much variables, maybe you were driving on oil slicks, maybe you were just hitting the painted arrows on the road...etc.) just ditch that thought.

I had my non compliance last year, and honestly the effect is not as huge as everyone puts. Then again, the huge GT wing tame down the rear movement A LOT!

 

[Hapa88]

So I am confused a bit are you guys saying running R compound or slicks WILL or WILL NOT help me improve? Seems like it wouldn't because the tire grips a lot, I am going even faster which makes me more nervous, and if I go over the limit it's a much bigger f'up to have to recover. But you guys are saying the extra grip gives extra confidence and that will help me more?

My personal thought is that at the stage you are now I would run through a set of the Dunlop Star Specs first. Since your other threads reveal that you only drive 8/10 to 9/10, I would say learn the car and the driving dynamics first. Once you are able to comfortably overdrive the car with those tires, step up to the NT01s.
Keep in mind that the NT01s have a much higher threshold of grip. They will allow you go too much faster around the track, but at the same time will let go at a much higher speed than the Dunlops. This could prove to be catastrophic should you go a little “too hot” into a corner.

You’ll definitely improve after running NT01s and stepping back down.. but I think you’d be getting ahead of yourself if you try to do that now.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

My personal thought is that at the stage you are now I would run through a set of the Dunlop Star Specs first. Since your other threads reveal that you only drive 8/10 to 9/10, I would say learn the car and the driving dynamics first. Once you are able to comfortably overdrive the car with those tires, step up to the NT01s.
Keep in mind that the NT01s have a much higher threshold of grip. They will allow you go too much faster around the track, but at the same time will let go at a much higher speed than the Dunlops. This could prove to be catastrophic should you go a little “too hot” into a corner.

You’ll definitely improve after running NT01s and stepping back down.. but I think you’d be getting ahead of yourself if you try to do that now.

Hapa88, did you drive both tires back to back? and I forgot to add, the Z1 overheats in summer months quite fast even at our "cooler" tracks in Seattle. NT01 does not have "much higher" grip than Z1. but do handle the heat related tire pressure issue a lot better than Z1.

 

[Hapa88]

Hapa88, did you drive both tires back to back? and I forgot to add, the Z1 overheats in summer months quite fast even at our "cooler" tracks in Seattle. NT01 does not have "much higher" grip than Z1. but do handle the heat related tire pressure issue a lot better than Z1.

I guess I can't compare since the tires I'm comparing are on two completely different cars.

My NSX runs Kumho SPTs on the 18/19s and Dunlop StarSpecs on my 17/18 set. I use the Dunlops at the track.

The NT01s set I have are on my Mazdaspeed3. The daily driving set is a Hankook V12.

Driving those back to back (by back to back, I mean 1 week NSX, next week Mazda), my Mazdaspeed track times are faster ~3+ seconds faster per lap, even though corner grip & lateral G's "feel" higher in the NSX on the Z1s. There's a lot of variables, because I too only drive my NSX at 8/10s to 9/10s of my ability whereas the Mazdaspeed is balls to the walls. :smile:

I've just burned through the NT01s on my Mazda and thinking I'm going to pick up a set Hankook RS3s to replace them. I'll see what happens to my times after I put those on...

 

[NSXDreamer2]

I guess I can't compare since the tires I'm comparing are on two completely different cars.

My NSX runs Kumho SPTs on the 18/19s and Dunlop StarSpecs on my 17/18 set. I use the Dunlops at the track.

The NT01s set I have are on my Mazdaspeed3. The daily driving set is a Hankook V12.

Driving those back to back (by back to back, I mean 1 week NSX, next week Mazda), my Mazdaspeed track times are faster ~3+ seconds faster per lap, even though corner grip & lateral G's "feel" higher in the NSX on the Z1s. There's a lot of variables, because I too only drive my NSX at 8/10s to 9/10s of my ability whereas the Mazdaspeed is balls to the walls. :smile:

must be one hell of a Mazdaspeed3 suspension set up is everything, and I should back up my claim a little as if op's car has more hp without extra aero help, the difference could be bigger than what i experienced...

funny that brings out another question, what's wrong of driving 8-9/10ths at Hpde?? and is your 8/10th driving the same level as my 8/10??? I had corner workers trying to kick me out of the track as they think I'm driving over my ability. I flat out told the guy I drove on this track with zero incident more than him sitting at the side of the track.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Hapa88, did you drive both tires back to back? and I forgot to add, the Z1 overheats in summer months quite fast even at our "cooler" tracks in Seattle. NT01 does not have "much higher" grip than Z1. but do handle the heat related tire pressure issue a lot better than Z1.

I have driven Z1 SS and NT01 back to back on the NSX on the same day.

My Vbox shows consistent peak lateral Gs for the Z1 SS of 1.1g where the NT01 is 1.4g same corner. Over and over again consistently. The NT01s were a full 2+ seconds faster a lap - same day, same conditions @ Putnam Park ( 1.78 miles, 10-turns).

Dave - if you still have tread of the Z1s, then run those and burn them up. No need to go out and buy new tires just to switch tires. First you have to figure out if you are getting new wheels, and whether you are going to keep them for street only and use the old ones for the track or sell the old ones. But right now you have wheels with tires - burn them up.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

I have driven Z1 SS and NT01 back to back on the NSX on the same day.

My Vbox shows consistent peak lateral Gs for the Z1 SS of 1.1g where the NT01 is 1.4g same corner. Over and over again consistently. The NT01s were a full 2+ seconds faster a lap - same day, same conditions @ Putnam Park ( 1.78 miles, 10-turns).

Dave - if you still have tread of the Z1s, then run those and burn them up. No need to go out and buy new tires just to switch tires. First you have to figure out if you are getting new wheels, and whether you are going to keep them for street only and use the old ones for the track or sell the old ones. But right now you have wheels with tires - burn them up.

did you notice the inconsistant grip (tire pressure related) at warmer track days comparing to the NT01???

 

[Hapa88]

must be one hell of a Mazdaspeed3 suspension set up is everything, and I should back up my claim a little as if op's car has more hp without extra aero help, the difference could be bigger than what i experienced...
funny that brings out another question, what's wrong of driving 8-9/10ths at Hpde?? and is your 8/10th driving the same level as my 8/10??? I had corner workers trying to kick me out of the track as they think I'm driving over my ability. I flat out told the guy I drove on this track with zero incident more than him sitting at the side of the track.

Yeah, the Mazdaspeed is quite the sleeper. With minimal mods it definitely holds its own on the track. Last time I brought it out for a HPDE was at Chuckwalla and the track was dominated by Z06s and Boss Mustangs. My track times were pretty much the same as most of them in my group. My only upgrades were Bilstein heavy duty struts (on stock springs), the NT01s, Carbotech XP10 front pads, Exhaust/test pipe/intake and an ECU tune… BTW, that 3 second gap is on Streets of Willow where lap times are in the 1:20s to 1:30s.

As for the 8-9/10s, I judge those numbers on my own aggressiveness. I’m definitely much more composed and reserved in my NSX, purposely lifting the gas and braking earlier than I would on the Mazda. I chase people down in my Mazda.. making it a goal to try to overtake them.. in the NSX, I just let people pass and concentrate more on the technical aspects of the drive. I think if I drove the NSX the same aggressiveness as the Mazda, the track times would be similar.

 

[R13]

I've only had the Star Specs get squidgy on me once, and that was a very hot day in the middle of Alabama. Even then the time drop off was only about a tenth/lap from the session average.

I like the R888s on my MR2, but I haven't tried a set on the NSX yet. I'm able to drive to and from the track on the Dunlops and drive plenty fast enough to have fun while on the track.

I try to resist making modifications to the car (including stickier tires) until I feel the car is holding me back vs. the other way around. I think R-comps can hide bad driving behind decent lap times....not always, but it can be the case.

 

[CL65 Captain]

did you notice the inconsistant grip (tire pressure related) at warmer track days comparing to the NT01???

The Z1 (as well as the AD08) I find are good on warm days for about 18-20 minutes at a time and then they start going away and getting "greasy". The NT01s were good an entire 30 minute run start to finish.

 

[Hapa88]

The Z1 (as well as the AD08) I find are good on warm days for about 18-20 minutes at a time and then they start going away and getting "greasy". The NT01s were good an entire 30 minute run start to finish.

Jim,
What are you thoughts of the Z1s toward the end of their tread (like after you just pass the wear bar)? I noticed the last track day that the backend rotated much easier than previous. The changes I could attribute to it were:
1) The tread depth was significantly less than previous track days
2) We were running the track the opposite direction that day
3) I had just installed the STMPO Rear Strut Tower bar on my NSX-T. This greatly increased rear chassis stiffness (which I believe may had a similar effect as having a larger rear sway bar??).

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Jim,
What are you thoughts of the Z1s toward the end of their tread (like after you just pass the wear bar)? I noticed the last track day that the backend rotated much easier than previous. The changes I could attribute to it were:
1) The tread depth was significantly less than previous track days
2) We were running the track the opposite direction that day
3) I had just installed the STMPO Rear Strut Tower bar on my NSX-T. This greatly increased rear chassis stiffness (which I believe may had a similar effect as having a larger rear sway bar??).

2 and 3 are more likely.. I tracked the z1 with almost to the cord in wet/dry condition before... I didn't noticed any loss of grip when the track is dry.... it was quite scary on my 6 hour drive back in freezing rain though.