Did anybody see Hungarian GP qualifying today? It appears lewis hamilton was not allowed a last lap by Alonzo fernando's pit crew holding him up. Lewis had the fastest laptimes of the day. Fernando got the pole.
lewis hamilton cheated out of pole at the hugarian GP
- Thread starter Ko-nsx
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Remember, Alonso's pit crew is also Hamilton's. So uh, it wasn't the team, it was Fernando. If you watch it again, the team was timing it, then the lollipop man brought the lollipop up but Fernando still stayed put for a few seconds, then left.
The reactions of Ron Dennis and the team said it all. Something was not right... and Ron Dennis looked like he wanted to confront Fernando after he weighed in.
Alonso and M.Schumacher are the same. They display poor sportsmanship.
I hope Lewis takes first on the first corner tomorrow.
Edit: Ron Dennis is now blaming Lewis for the problem. It seems to me that this was said only to avoid or reduce any possible FIA sanctions against the team. Ron Dennis blames Lewis Hamilton
The reactions of Ron Dennis and the team said it all. Something was not right... and Ron Dennis looked like he wanted to confront Fernando after he weighed in.
Alonso and M.Schumacher are the same. They display poor sportsmanship.
I hope Lewis takes first on the first corner tomorrow.
Edit: Ron Dennis is now blaming Lewis for the problem. It seems to me that this was said only to avoid or reduce any possible FIA sanctions against the team. Ron Dennis blames Lewis Hamilton
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I saw that as well, a very bizarre incident. It definitely seemed like Alonso had the go ahead to leave the pits, but sat there for a few extra seconds.
The story gets even stranger, though:
First, Alonso blames the team for the hold-up:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/04/alonso-blames-team-for-hold-up/
Next, Alonso's "stunt" is investigated:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/04/alonso-stunt-to-be-investigated/
Finally, Alonso is docked 5 places:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/05/alonso-loses-five-places/
Seems pretty clear what happened. Hamilton didn't let Alonso past in the opening minutes of Q3. So, to exact revenge, Alonso screws Hamilton over in the waning minutes of Q3.
I wish the cameras would have been on Hamilton's car, I would have liked to have seen how much he missed making an extra lap. Had to be less than 2-3 seconds.
Seems like pretty childish behavior on the part of both drivers, but it sure makes for some entertaining televsion. I was actually looking forward to Hamilton and Alonso fighting it out in the opening lap. Oh well, it seems like McLaren's cars are pretty dominant this weekend, so maybe Alonso can push his way through the field. I'm sure he'll be pretty fired up, I can't wait to see him trying to work his way through traffic.
The story gets even stranger, though:
First, Alonso blames the team for the hold-up:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/04/alonso-blames-team-for-hold-up/
Next, Alonso's "stunt" is investigated:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/04/alonso-stunt-to-be-investigated/
Finally, Alonso is docked 5 places:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/05/alonso-loses-five-places/
Seems pretty clear what happened. Hamilton didn't let Alonso past in the opening minutes of Q3. So, to exact revenge, Alonso screws Hamilton over in the waning minutes of Q3.
I wish the cameras would have been on Hamilton's car, I would have liked to have seen how much he missed making an extra lap. Had to be less than 2-3 seconds.
Seems like pretty childish behavior on the part of both drivers, but it sure makes for some entertaining televsion. I was actually looking forward to Hamilton and Alonso fighting it out in the opening lap. Oh well, it seems like McLaren's cars are pretty dominant this weekend, so maybe Alonso can push his way through the field. I'm sure he'll be pretty fired up, I can't wait to see him trying to work his way through traffic.
I recorded it, just watched it, team waits, one box crew dude counts down with his fingers 5,4,3.. lollipop goes up, Alsonso looks in his mirrors and stays for a few seconds, didn't look right.
Commentator said there was team radio but they pressed some sort of "privacy" button so the press could'nt record. :frown:
Pole to sixth is pretty harsh especially in Budapest where pole = victory in most of the races.
Commentator said there was team radio but they pressed some sort of "privacy" button so the press could'nt record. :frown:
Pole to sixth is pretty harsh especially in Budapest where pole = victory in most of the races.
The SPEED broadcast timed it and showed that Alonso waited for more than 10 seconds after the lollipop went up. It was obvious that Alonso was acting on his own. RD was livid. Like Hamilton said after the qualifying, "you all saw what happened." We did indeed.
Alonso fully deserved what he got and is in fact lucky not to have gotten worse. Hamilton admitted to defying team orders to be the first car out in Q3 so he could dictate the pace and burn up the most fuel. He never held anyone up. Alonso deliberately held up Hamilton knowing full well what he was doing, not allowing Hamilton another shot at pole, because he KNEW that he was faster.
The difference is obvious, and Varsha's comment about the stewards should not get involved in team affairs is misplaced. This was a driver blocking another driver, not team orders. The stewards are well within their authority to punish Alonso. Did you see the reactions fo thepit crew when Alonso took pole, and Ron Dennis' reaction as well? That says it all.
What I don't get is why McClaren then went out of their way to try to smokescreen everything. How pathetic! If I were Ron Dennis, I would have publicly stated that this kind of behavior in my team is not accepable by any driver, and I would have fined Alonso publicly. At the same token, I would have also fined Hamilton publicly for defying team orders regarding the running order for the star of Q3.
Why all the bull shit? It just makes for a dirty image if you don't face up to your wrongs when the whole world saw what happened.
Fair enough, Hamilton shouldn't have sped out to be first for Q3, but it isn't like Alonso was right behind him, Kimi was second in the queue. Alonso now is a hypocrite and a spiteful cheat in his own right, after having been the biggest criticizer of MS's antics last year.
End Rant.
At least Justice was served with Hamilton winning the race and Alonso missing out on the podium. That was most satisfying.
Alonso fully deserved what he got and is in fact lucky not to have gotten worse. Hamilton admitted to defying team orders to be the first car out in Q3 so he could dictate the pace and burn up the most fuel. He never held anyone up. Alonso deliberately held up Hamilton knowing full well what he was doing, not allowing Hamilton another shot at pole, because he KNEW that he was faster.
The difference is obvious, and Varsha's comment about the stewards should not get involved in team affairs is misplaced. This was a driver blocking another driver, not team orders. The stewards are well within their authority to punish Alonso. Did you see the reactions fo thepit crew when Alonso took pole, and Ron Dennis' reaction as well? That says it all.
What I don't get is why McClaren then went out of their way to try to smokescreen everything. How pathetic! If I were Ron Dennis, I would have publicly stated that this kind of behavior in my team is not accepable by any driver, and I would have fined Alonso publicly. At the same token, I would have also fined Hamilton publicly for defying team orders regarding the running order for the star of Q3.
Why all the bull shit? It just makes for a dirty image if you don't face up to your wrongs when the whole world saw what happened.
Fair enough, Hamilton shouldn't have sped out to be first for Q3, but it isn't like Alonso was right behind him, Kimi was second in the queue. Alonso now is a hypocrite and a spiteful cheat in his own right, after having been the biggest criticizer of MS's antics last year.
End Rant.
At least Justice was served with Hamilton winning the race and Alonso missing out on the podium. That was most satisfying.
Why all the bull shit? It just makes for a dirty image if you don't face up to your wrongs when the whole world saw what happened.
i agree totally.
That is true. The team cost themselves lots of constructors points by creating the coverup and basically shielding Alonso. McLaren should have distanced themselves from Alonso and called him out publicly and Ron Dennis should have explained to Alonso, whether or not he personally approves/disapproves of the move, that no driver is more important than the team and that the team could risk losing points if they didn't deny everything. I have no idea why McLaren chose to stand behind Alonso at the expense of the team.
It appears Alonso did indeed hold Hamilton up as the excuse he gave holds no water (he claims he wasn't sure if the correct tires were on and decided to ask after the lollipop went up)
. That's ridiculous. How Alonso thought he could get away with it is unbelievable. That was absolutely a Michael Schumacher-style maneuver. Schumacher never had a teammate challenge him or we may have seen something similar from him at one point. Not often do you see a defending world champ being out-driven by his teammate. That's why something like this doesn't happen very often. The stewards saw right through the pack of lies and doubletalk and the punishment was 100% spot-on, even though, again, it's something that cannot be proven just like Schumacher pulling over at Monaco to block Alonso, but there the stewards also saw right through it and delivered the appropriate punishment.
That's not a good precedent to let your driver become bigger than the team. All McLaren had to do was keep their mouth shut and let Alonso know that there is no choice but to publicly denounce his actions. What does supporting him accomplish other than risk losing team points by essentially lying to the stewards? Alonso is not bigger than the team.
Anyways, Alonso is desperate because Hamilton is the best driver in F1 right now without a doubt and deserves to win the championship.
They couldn't do that because doing so would acknowledge the existence of team orders which are technically forbidden.
Re: lewis hamilton cheated out of pole at the hungarian GP
I know we talked about this in person, but upon further thought I don't think this is the case, because team orders about the order of the line up in qualifying really wouldn't constitute preference over another car or driver in the team. It's not like they were asking Hamilton to slow down for Alonso on the last turn of the final lap of the race or anything. Although on a strictly technical level of discussion and interpretation of the sporting regs, you might be right...they might not have wanted to risk that.
I know we talked about this in person, but upon further thought I don't think this is the case, because team orders about the order of the line up in qualifying really wouldn't constitute preference over another car or driver in the team. It's not like they were asking Hamilton to slow down for Alonso on the last turn of the final lap of the race or anything. Although on a strictly technical level of discussion and interpretation of the sporting regs, you might be right...they might not have wanted to risk that.
Re: lewis hamilton cheated out of pole at the hungarian GP
You're right--the FIA may not forbid those types of team orders but I have never seen it explained in any other language than "no team orders" period.
Either way, Dennis needs to whip both his drivers' heads back and tell them that playing games that potentially jeopardize the team is unacceptable, whether or not Dennis cares that Alonso screwed Hamilton. He might not care as long as the front row is all McLaren which it was but you cannot screw your teammate in such a way that it affects the team. Dennis and the team are loving this Alonso-Hamilton battle and might not mind if it gets dirty--so long as it's just about which guy is 1st and 2nd. McLaren could care less about which one of the two wins the championship--as long as it's one of them and the team wins the constructor's.
I don't know if Hamilton had good reason to leave early at the start of Q3. Maybe he did. Maybe he felt, as the driver, that he needed to go out then and the team had it wrong. Sometimes the driver, not the team, knows best or sees something or senses something the team doesn't. But the fact remains that he did not compromise Alonso or the team by doing that. Even if it was a bad decision it does not justify what Alonso did or why Alonso felt he needed to do it.
I think Alonso felt that Hamilton could be no worse than 2nd and if he held him up and could beat him with one more lap. I'm sure he was thinking that as long as it was a McLaren front row no one would complain. Even if Hamilton complained, what does he care? He's the world champ! The team wouldn't complain because it was a McLaren front row and since Alonso is the superstar Hamilton's complaints would be swept under the rug. Well, maybe if his teammate was still Fisichella. But not Hamilton. All eyes are on him, not Alonso right now.
I guarantee you Alonso never thought the FIA would get involved. That's why Dennis was upset after Hamilton missed the checkered flag. He didn't feel bad for Hamilton. No--he knew the FIA was going to get invloved and couldn't believe Alonso would do something so obviously dumb and that the team was going to possibly come under fire. That's what kills me about McLaren not publicly denouncing his actions. That was their only chance to escape penalty and they instead chose to stand behind Alonso for doing something outrageous and stupid? Makes no sense.
You're right--the FIA may not forbid those types of team orders but I have never seen it explained in any other language than "no team orders" period.
Either way, Dennis needs to whip both his drivers' heads back and tell them that playing games that potentially jeopardize the team is unacceptable, whether or not Dennis cares that Alonso screwed Hamilton. He might not care as long as the front row is all McLaren which it was but you cannot screw your teammate in such a way that it affects the team. Dennis and the team are loving this Alonso-Hamilton battle and might not mind if it gets dirty--so long as it's just about which guy is 1st and 2nd. McLaren could care less about which one of the two wins the championship--as long as it's one of them and the team wins the constructor's.
I don't know if Hamilton had good reason to leave early at the start of Q3. Maybe he did. Maybe he felt, as the driver, that he needed to go out then and the team had it wrong. Sometimes the driver, not the team, knows best or sees something or senses something the team doesn't. But the fact remains that he did not compromise Alonso or the team by doing that. Even if it was a bad decision it does not justify what Alonso did or why Alonso felt he needed to do it.
I think Alonso felt that Hamilton could be no worse than 2nd and if he held him up and could beat him with one more lap. I'm sure he was thinking that as long as it was a McLaren front row no one would complain. Even if Hamilton complained, what does he care? He's the world champ! The team wouldn't complain because it was a McLaren front row and since Alonso is the superstar Hamilton's complaints would be swept under the rug. Well, maybe if his teammate was still Fisichella. But not Hamilton. All eyes are on him, not Alonso right now.
I guarantee you Alonso never thought the FIA would get involved. That's why Dennis was upset after Hamilton missed the checkered flag. He didn't feel bad for Hamilton. No--he knew the FIA was going to get invloved and couldn't believe Alonso would do something so obviously dumb and that the team was going to possibly come under fire. That's what kills me about McLaren not publicly denouncing his actions. That was their only chance to escape penalty and they instead chose to stand behind Alonso for doing something outrageous and stupid? Makes no sense.
Guys, do you all know that Hamilton delibrately disobay a team order, and play it off during the interview like he is the victim?
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3265_2642694,00.html
Ron Dennis
You only had to see Ron's pained expression during his post-race interview on ITV to realise that McLaren had been badly beaten this weekend despite one of their drivers actually winning the race. Unable to collect any points due to the qualifying rumpus, Dennis was also unable to take any consolation from Lewis' tainted victory. He looked crushed.
Although the British press have absolved 'our Lewis' of all blame, Hamilton's conduct on Saturday must have particularly hurt Dennis. After ten years of schooling in the McLaren ethos of putting the team first and foremost, it was Dennis' protégé who disregarded the direct order of his team boss, setting in motion a dismal train of events that ended at 11pm that night with the stewards effectively branding the team liars.
For Ron, this must have been the ultimate betrayal. If Lewis wasn't prepared to play fair, then how could Fernando? And as a man who prides himself on both his personal and organisation's integrity, the stewards' ruling will have been deeply wounding.
Nor will his mood have been brightened by Hamilton's request that he "go f**king swivel". It was that advice, and not Alonso's tardy exit from his pit-stop, that prompted Dennis to throw down his headset in disgust at the end of qualifying. The youngster is deluding himself if he believes that "something as small as this is definitely not going to affect our relationship".
In hindsight, this may be regarded as a seismic weekend in the history of McLaren in three respects.
First, it has probably damaged Alonso and Hamilton's relationship to such an extent that Fernando will prefer to take a year out of the sport than continue at McLaren.
Second, events in Budapest shattered the illusion that the team can come first in F1 - the very principle on which McLaren is founded.
"I really want everybody at McLaren to share the responsibility of being part of this team," Dennis declared last year. "I also think it is very important for all of us to realise that McLaren was there before we arrived and will be there after we've gone. We're simply custodians of the company, writing our own chapter in its history."
It is a laudable ethos yet one which crumbled during the era of Senna v Prost - rather than Senna and Prost - and again on Saturday when two drivers fell into the temptation of driving for a World Championship rather than for the McLaren team. It is ironic that they were both permitted to collect World Championship points and McLaren were not because the qualifying debacle was caused by Alonso and Hamilton prioritising individual ambition over team glory.
Third, it may hasten the retirement of its chairman, CEO and founder member. Dennis turned 60 in June and could not disguise his exhaustion at Budapest. Over the next few weeks, he could be forgiven for concluding that if winning provides so little relief then he might as well step out of the firing line.
It is an open secret that Martin Whitmarsh has been groomed as his successor and that he has already assumed many of Dennis' day-to-day responsibilities. "Martin has spent the last 10 years trying to convince me to retire," he told the Guardian in January. "Most people's perception of retirement is that you stop working. My perception is completely different. It's just a systematic back-off. It will be a slow process of disengagement but not a switch. I don't want to quit as a loser."
Perversely, at the end of 2007 it may be the bitter taste of victory which causes him to quit as a winner.
Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, and McLaren
Every relationship of significance within the confines of McLaren - Dennis and Alonso's, Alonso and Hamilton's, Hamilton and Dennis' - was damaged this weekend. At least one has probably been irrevocably weakened beyond pair.
It is worth dwelling on Lewis Hamilton's role in the debacle because his guilt has largely passed without comment by the fawning British media. Even The Guardian's old sage Alan Henry fell into the trap, assuring readers that the qualifying rumpus 'all started when Alonso appeared to deliberately hold up his team-mate'. Not so; it all started when Hamilton deliberately ignored a direct order from Dennis to let Alonso past on the track during the early stages of qualifying three. It was a defining moment for driver, team and, very possibly, the 2007 season. In that moment, Hamilton revealed that he was only willing to respect McLaren's belief in equality so long as it suited him, and thus a hitherto-concealed ruthless streak.
Comparisons with Ayrton Senna suddenly seem even more appropriate. Like the Brazilian, Hamilton is prepared to play dirty. And like Senna, he has the happy knack of dodging the crossfire whilst his unfairly-maligned team-mate takes the flak.
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3265_2642694,00.html
Ron Dennis
You only had to see Ron's pained expression during his post-race interview on ITV to realise that McLaren had been badly beaten this weekend despite one of their drivers actually winning the race. Unable to collect any points due to the qualifying rumpus, Dennis was also unable to take any consolation from Lewis' tainted victory. He looked crushed.
Although the British press have absolved 'our Lewis' of all blame, Hamilton's conduct on Saturday must have particularly hurt Dennis. After ten years of schooling in the McLaren ethos of putting the team first and foremost, it was Dennis' protégé who disregarded the direct order of his team boss, setting in motion a dismal train of events that ended at 11pm that night with the stewards effectively branding the team liars.
For Ron, this must have been the ultimate betrayal. If Lewis wasn't prepared to play fair, then how could Fernando? And as a man who prides himself on both his personal and organisation's integrity, the stewards' ruling will have been deeply wounding.
Nor will his mood have been brightened by Hamilton's request that he "go f**king swivel". It was that advice, and not Alonso's tardy exit from his pit-stop, that prompted Dennis to throw down his headset in disgust at the end of qualifying. The youngster is deluding himself if he believes that "something as small as this is definitely not going to affect our relationship".
In hindsight, this may be regarded as a seismic weekend in the history of McLaren in three respects.
First, it has probably damaged Alonso and Hamilton's relationship to such an extent that Fernando will prefer to take a year out of the sport than continue at McLaren.
Second, events in Budapest shattered the illusion that the team can come first in F1 - the very principle on which McLaren is founded.
"I really want everybody at McLaren to share the responsibility of being part of this team," Dennis declared last year. "I also think it is very important for all of us to realise that McLaren was there before we arrived and will be there after we've gone. We're simply custodians of the company, writing our own chapter in its history."
It is a laudable ethos yet one which crumbled during the era of Senna v Prost - rather than Senna and Prost - and again on Saturday when two drivers fell into the temptation of driving for a World Championship rather than for the McLaren team. It is ironic that they were both permitted to collect World Championship points and McLaren were not because the qualifying debacle was caused by Alonso and Hamilton prioritising individual ambition over team glory.
Third, it may hasten the retirement of its chairman, CEO and founder member. Dennis turned 60 in June and could not disguise his exhaustion at Budapest. Over the next few weeks, he could be forgiven for concluding that if winning provides so little relief then he might as well step out of the firing line.
It is an open secret that Martin Whitmarsh has been groomed as his successor and that he has already assumed many of Dennis' day-to-day responsibilities. "Martin has spent the last 10 years trying to convince me to retire," he told the Guardian in January. "Most people's perception of retirement is that you stop working. My perception is completely different. It's just a systematic back-off. It will be a slow process of disengagement but not a switch. I don't want to quit as a loser."
Perversely, at the end of 2007 it may be the bitter taste of victory which causes him to quit as a winner.
Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, and McLaren
Every relationship of significance within the confines of McLaren - Dennis and Alonso's, Alonso and Hamilton's, Hamilton and Dennis' - was damaged this weekend. At least one has probably been irrevocably weakened beyond pair.
It is worth dwelling on Lewis Hamilton's role in the debacle because his guilt has largely passed without comment by the fawning British media. Even The Guardian's old sage Alan Henry fell into the trap, assuring readers that the qualifying rumpus 'all started when Alonso appeared to deliberately hold up his team-mate'. Not so; it all started when Hamilton deliberately ignored a direct order from Dennis to let Alonso past on the track during the early stages of qualifying three. It was a defining moment for driver, team and, very possibly, the 2007 season. In that moment, Hamilton revealed that he was only willing to respect McLaren's belief in equality so long as it suited him, and thus a hitherto-concealed ruthless streak.
Comparisons with Ayrton Senna suddenly seem even more appropriate. Like the Brazilian, Hamilton is prepared to play dirty. And like Senna, he has the happy knack of dodging the crossfire whilst his unfairly-maligned team-mate takes the flak.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Hamilton's move might have been out of line but Alonso took it to a whole new level and screwed himself and the team. That was truly a Schumacher-esque move. Hamilton's move simply cannot be considered as bold. To say that he deserved it is, IMO, unwarranted. He deserved to be put into his place by the team--not for self-righteous Alonso to stoop to childish cheating to punish him.
Alonso was not going to get pole in Hungary no matter what he did because Hamilton was faster. The fact that Hamilton didn't let him by early in Q3 is virtually meaningless.
As a result the team loses tons of points, looks like liars and Alonso looks like a sore-loser cheat.
Hamilton's infraction was minor compared to Alonso's. There was no need for that. Alonso wasn't going to get pole and he knew it. Hamilton had not taken anything from him as Alonso did to Hamilton. Disobeying a team order that has no real bearing on the other driver and intentionally preventing the other driver from being successful are completely different degrees of offenses.
So while Hamilton is no altar boy he certainly did not deserve to get screwed over by Alonso. If Alonso wants to run the team than he can let someone else drive. Until then he's being paid to drive his car as fast as he can. If he has a problem with Hamilton it needs to be dealt with off the track for both their and the team's sakes.
Alonso's relationships with McLaren and team-mate Lewis Hamilton appear to be severely strained following the Hungarian Grand Prix.
The reigning double World Champion is no longer on speaking terms with Hamilton in the wake of their post-qualifying bust-up.
Hamilton disobeyed team instructions insisting he let Alonso pass at the start of the final qualifying session.
Alonso was then accused by race stewards of deliberately impeding Hamilton in the pit lane, denying him a final crack at a hot lap, and was demoted from pole to sixth on the grid.
It is alleged Hamilton, who had a furious slanging match with boss Ron Dennis over the team radio after qualifying, instigated the complaint to the stewards - an accusation he has denied.
The incident also resulted in McLaren not receiving the 15 points they claimed from Hamilton's victory and Alonso's fourth for the Constructors' Championship.
Alonso is at a loss to understand the events of the last few days, stating: "It was a strange decision to penalise the team and me."
Speaking on Spanish radio station, Cadenasur, Alonso added: "There have been some strange situations in the team all through the year and this was another example.
"We were first and second in qualifying and nobody was happy. We went to complain about ourselves.
"It was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1.
"There are always strange moments in this sport, in all sports generally, but maybe in F1 a little more.
"There are always things going on like this away from the track, so it is has been a strange weekend in that respect."
It was a weekend which ended with Alonso refusing to confirm if he will see out his contract with McLaren which has another two years to run after this season.
When quizzed on the matter by Spanish journalists he replied: "I don't know, I don't know."
He is at least determined to win a third successive World title, and is confident it was not a case of the FIA conspiring against him on Saturday to help Hamilton's cause.
"Everybody asks me that, fans and journalists, but no, I don't think so," replied Alonso.
"It is difficult to organise things to make a driver win, with all of the things that can happen in a race, the small details which can make the difference. That is impossible to control.
"Last year it looked as if Michael (Schumacher) was going to win, but then his engine went and I won the Championship.
"The end is what counts and point by point, we are going to fight until the last moment.
"It is not an easy championship, but none of them are."
Alonso feels the situation within the team will have eased by the time of the Turkish Grand Prix in three weeks' time.
However, he concedes he was left stunned by Hamilton's outburst at Dennis, adding: "I suppose the team will look at it.
"It is the first time Hamilton, or any driver, speaks like that to his boss. I have never seen it.
"I suppose they will talk to him and in Turkey things will be back to normal in three weeks.
"I don't think anything will change in the team."
The reigning double World Champion is no longer on speaking terms with Hamilton in the wake of their post-qualifying bust-up.
Hamilton disobeyed team instructions insisting he let Alonso pass at the start of the final qualifying session.
Alonso was then accused by race stewards of deliberately impeding Hamilton in the pit lane, denying him a final crack at a hot lap, and was demoted from pole to sixth on the grid.
It is alleged Hamilton, who had a furious slanging match with boss Ron Dennis over the team radio after qualifying, instigated the complaint to the stewards - an accusation he has denied.
The incident also resulted in McLaren not receiving the 15 points they claimed from Hamilton's victory and Alonso's fourth for the Constructors' Championship.
Alonso is at a loss to understand the events of the last few days, stating: "It was a strange decision to penalise the team and me."
Speaking on Spanish radio station, Cadenasur, Alonso added: "There have been some strange situations in the team all through the year and this was another example.
"We were first and second in qualifying and nobody was happy. We went to complain about ourselves.
"It was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1.
"There are always strange moments in this sport, in all sports generally, but maybe in F1 a little more.
"There are always things going on like this away from the track, so it is has been a strange weekend in that respect."
It was a weekend which ended with Alonso refusing to confirm if he will see out his contract with McLaren which has another two years to run after this season.
When quizzed on the matter by Spanish journalists he replied: "I don't know, I don't know."
He is at least determined to win a third successive World title, and is confident it was not a case of the FIA conspiring against him on Saturday to help Hamilton's cause.
"Everybody asks me that, fans and journalists, but no, I don't think so," replied Alonso.
"It is difficult to organise things to make a driver win, with all of the things that can happen in a race, the small details which can make the difference. That is impossible to control.
"Last year it looked as if Michael (Schumacher) was going to win, but then his engine went and I won the Championship.
"The end is what counts and point by point, we are going to fight until the last moment.
"It is not an easy championship, but none of them are."
Alonso feels the situation within the team will have eased by the time of the Turkish Grand Prix in three weeks' time.
However, he concedes he was left stunned by Hamilton's outburst at Dennis, adding: "I suppose the team will look at it.
"It is the first time Hamilton, or any driver, speaks like that to his boss. I have never seen it.
"I suppose they will talk to him and in Turkey things will be back to normal in three weeks.
"I don't think anything will change in the team."
Hamilton disobeyed team instructions insisting he let Alonso pass at the start of the final qualifying session.
Ok.
Alonso was then accused by race stewards of deliberately impeding Hamilton in the pit lane, denying him a final crack at a hot lap, and was demoted from pole to sixth on the grid.
He did impede him.
It is alleged Hamilton, who had a furious slanging match with boss Ron Dennis over the team radio after qualifying, instigated the complaint to the stewards - an accusation he has denied.
Maybe he did. It's his right. Obviously there was something wrong because the stewards agreed and levied a penalty.
Alonso is at a loss to understand the events of the last few days, stating: "It was a strange decision to penalise the team and me."
Sure. No idea, eh? When you cheat, you get penalized. Sometimes not enough. Ask Michael Schumacher.
Speaking on Spanish radio station, Cadenasur, Alonso added: "There have been some strange situations in the team all through the year and this was another example.
Like when a rookie teammate starts showing up his double world champ teammate.
"We were first and second in qualifying and nobody was happy. We went to complain about ourselves.
Alonso certainly was happy. He stole pole. He wasn't going to be happy with #2.
"It was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1.
It was of his own doing.
"There are always strange moments in this sport, in all sports generally, but maybe in F1 a little more.
Big talent, big money, big egos.
"There are always things going on like this away from the track, so it is has been a strange weekend in that respect."
Then Alonso should find a new team.
It was a weekend which ended with Alonso refusing to confirm if he will see out his contract with McLaren which has another two years to run after this season.
Better to not drive and look like the bigger person than drive and cheat.
He is at least determined to win a third successive World title, and is confident it was not a case of the FIA conspiring against him on Saturday to help Hamilton's cause.
Those are both 100% correct statements.
However, he concedes he was left stunned by Hamilton's outburst at Dennis, adding: "I suppose the team will look at it.
As well they should.
"I don't think anything will change in the team."
Then again, Fernando, find a new team.
Ok.
Alonso was then accused by race stewards of deliberately impeding Hamilton in the pit lane, denying him a final crack at a hot lap, and was demoted from pole to sixth on the grid.
He did impede him.
It is alleged Hamilton, who had a furious slanging match with boss Ron Dennis over the team radio after qualifying, instigated the complaint to the stewards - an accusation he has denied.
Maybe he did. It's his right. Obviously there was something wrong because the stewards agreed and levied a penalty.
Alonso is at a loss to understand the events of the last few days, stating: "It was a strange decision to penalise the team and me."
Sure.
No idea, eh? When you cheat, you get penalized. Sometimes not enough. Ask Michael Schumacher.Speaking on Spanish radio station, Cadenasur, Alonso added: "There have been some strange situations in the team all through the year and this was another example.
Like when a rookie teammate starts showing up his double world champ teammate.
"We were first and second in qualifying and nobody was happy. We went to complain about ourselves.
Alonso certainly was happy. He stole pole. He wasn't going to be happy with #2.
"It was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1.
It was of his own doing.
"There are always strange moments in this sport, in all sports generally, but maybe in F1 a little more.
Big talent, big money, big egos.
"There are always things going on like this away from the track, so it is has been a strange weekend in that respect."
Then Alonso should find a new team.
It was a weekend which ended with Alonso refusing to confirm if he will see out his contract with McLaren which has another two years to run after this season.
Better to not drive and look like the bigger person than drive and cheat.
He is at least determined to win a third successive World title, and is confident it was not a case of the FIA conspiring against him on Saturday to help Hamilton's cause.
Those are both 100% correct statements.
However, he concedes he was left stunned by Hamilton's outburst at Dennis, adding: "I suppose the team will look at it.
As well they should.
"I don't think anything will change in the team."
Then again, Fernando, find a new team.
Vance, nobody is saying, as noted above, that Hamilton is a saint. He's a cut-throat F1 driver. You have to be to even be driving in F1. There is no other way to get there. How do you think he won all of those championships in all of his other racing series he ever raced in?
But, just to take a step back. It seems now, contrary to my earlier understanding, that Hamilton was ordered to let Alonso pass out on the circuit during the opening stages of Q3 qualifying. If that is so, wasn't Raikonnen in between the two of them? I may be wrong, so someone who DVR'd it please correct me (I am out of town on business so can't really double check) but that wouldn't make sense. I thought he was ordered to let Alonso get out into the queue to get on the track initially as the first car, but disobeyed there.
My point is, it would be very sketchy looking if Hamilton slowed up to allow Alonso to pass during that first qualifying stint if they were both supposed to be out doing hot laps. He would never have let Kimi do that, and in fact did block him from passing if I recall correctly.
Anyway, the difference between Alonso's actions and Hamilton's are that Alonso's were direct actions to impede Hamilton from qualifying with his best possible time. Who knows what reasons the team had for ordering Hamilton to let Alonso pass/go out first? It seems they had it all under control anyway with all of their counting down to the second before letting him out of the pits those two times.
This is all bullshit anyway - like I said earlier, if I were a team principal, and I wanted my team to be for the team, and I wanted my drivers treated equally, and I wanted the team to be greater than any one driver, I would be forced to take severe disciplinary action with material (enough to make it really hurt) deductions in pay, and operate on a three strikes and you're out policy. IF they persist, they will be in breach of their driving contract, and I could withhold as much of their salary as I wanted and terminate both drivers for their conduct at the end of the season. Their repustations would be tainted, they'd be out TONS of money, and the media would not be supportive of them. I would publicly brand them as trouble makers and dissenters, and fire them at the end of the season. But that's just me. I guess I would have to evaluate my driver options too, but in that race car, I bet Webber and Coulthard could be challenging for the World Championship.
But, just to take a step back. It seems now, contrary to my earlier understanding, that Hamilton was ordered to let Alonso pass out on the circuit during the opening stages of Q3 qualifying. If that is so, wasn't Raikonnen in between the two of them? I may be wrong, so someone who DVR'd it please correct me (I am out of town on business so can't really double check) but that wouldn't make sense. I thought he was ordered to let Alonso get out into the queue to get on the track initially as the first car, but disobeyed there.
My point is, it would be very sketchy looking if Hamilton slowed up to allow Alonso to pass during that first qualifying stint if they were both supposed to be out doing hot laps. He would never have let Kimi do that, and in fact did block him from passing if I recall correctly.
Anyway, the difference between Alonso's actions and Hamilton's are that Alonso's were direct actions to impede Hamilton from qualifying with his best possible time. Who knows what reasons the team had for ordering Hamilton to let Alonso pass/go out first? It seems they had it all under control anyway with all of their counting down to the second before letting him out of the pits those two times.
This is all bullshit anyway - like I said earlier, if I were a team principal, and I wanted my team to be for the team, and I wanted my drivers treated equally, and I wanted the team to be greater than any one driver, I would be forced to take severe disciplinary action with material (enough to make it really hurt) deductions in pay, and operate on a three strikes and you're out policy. IF they persist, they will be in breach of their driving contract, and I could withhold as much of their salary as I wanted and terminate both drivers for their conduct at the end of the season. Their repustations would be tainted, they'd be out TONS of money, and the media would not be supportive of them. I would publicly brand them as trouble makers and dissenters, and fire them at the end of the season. But that's just me. I guess I would have to evaluate my driver options too, but in that race car, I bet Webber and Coulthard could be challenging for the World Championship.
You guys are missing my point, perhaps I'm not explained properly.
Both drivers are very young, one has two championship titles and the other - close on getting one. The scenario is very much same as back in 1989 with Senna and Prost.
McLaren's simple objective is to win the Contructor's championship. In their case, they have two very capible drivers who can also win the Driver's championship.
If you recall the 1989 season, they had problems within the driver's line up and they had to let one person go, in this case, it will most likely to be Alonso.
Lewis has every right to go after the tile Alonso does, but the chain of command crumbled and the event was started by Lewis. Regardless the result, I don't see Alonso stay with McLaren next year. If you as a driver and can't follow a simple instruction, you will have a problem later. Alonso's act was his own, perhaps he was pissed off at Lewis. The bottom line is, one will be gone at the end of the season, and it will not be Lewis.
Like the TV commentators said it best, McLeran shouldn't have been punished as a team, it was the two drivers who should have. Not just one.
Both drivers are very young, one has two championship titles and the other - close on getting one. The scenario is very much same as back in 1989 with Senna and Prost.
McLaren's simple objective is to win the Contructor's championship. In their case, they have two very capible drivers who can also win the Driver's championship.
If you recall the 1989 season, they had problems within the driver's line up and they had to let one person go, in this case, it will most likely to be Alonso.
Lewis has every right to go after the tile Alonso does, but the chain of command crumbled and the event was started by Lewis. Regardless the result, I don't see Alonso stay with McLaren next year. If you as a driver and can't follow a simple instruction, you will have a problem later. Alonso's act was his own, perhaps he was pissed off at Lewis. The bottom line is, one will be gone at the end of the season, and it will not be Lewis.
Like the TV commentators said it best, McLeran shouldn't have been punished as a team, it was the two drivers who should have. Not just one.
I totally agree with what you're saying. But the Hamilton issue has to do with Hamilton and the team, not Alonso. Alonso knew he wasn't going to get pole that day so who cares if Hamilton passes him? Hamilton is faster. Just drop back for 5 seconds' distance and run the hot laps. He's not going to run into him--again, he's faster than Alonso!
The Alonso move was pointless and made him and the team look like fools and cheats. It was a poor way to make a statement about the team situation and a very poor strategic choice . Anyway, the damage is done, and it's Alonso who looks like a cheater. Was it worth it? I think not.
As far as the team penalty McLaren shouldn't have tried to cover it up and lie. That's the single most baffling thing about this. I am at a loss to explain what the motivation was for McLaren not immediately making a statement saying "We had nothing to do with this--Alonso did it of his own free will." Why risk involving the team at all?
What does McLaren care about drivers points? They should have absolutely thrown Alonso under the bus. Instead by trying to cover it up the stewards effectively said "Ok, you want to try to tell us it was a team decision and not Alonso alone? First of all, we believe it was Alonso alone, so we're going to knock him back 5 spots. And since you are trying to tell us Alonso isn't to blame, have it your way. Team decision equals team penalty. No contructor points."
I think Ron Dennis was so pissed off at both drivers that he didn't have a way to deal with it. I think there are more than we know and what ever Lewis did had some major effect on the team strategy, which perhaps had some thing to do with what the team had in mind for Alons, and Lewis' action cause the strategy to take a U turn. Alonson's action may not have been proper, but between the team members, if they don't get along, they will do what ever they can to win the championship without team's help. Senna and Prost did just that. 20 years from now, no one will talk about this matter, but who won the championship. Unless the driver keep on working the same dirt like MS in the past. Today, no one is questioning Senna's ability, but they do with MS. Until the incident over the qualifying, Alonso has been one of the most honest champion in F1. Lewis Hamilton however, is already playing mind game during his rookie season.
So at the end of the season, most likely FA will depart the team and McLaren will have more problem from Ferrari with the espionage issues. There is an old chinese saying - A mountain can not hold two tigers. One will have to go.
One thing I will say is: this season has been pertty cool, it is what F1 needs.
I can agree with that. Who knows what's really going on at McLaren. It is too bad because I do agree, Alonso has been a fine champion up to this point.
Dead horse and all, but I swear I saw another guy counting alonso off after the lollipop went up.
This was a top-down shot that has since been removed from YouTube, but the guy was further down the pit row and was wearing McLaren team outfit... he pointed his finger at the exact moment Alonso left.
Since nobody else is saying anything about this, I wonder if Alonso is getting some support within the team (the guy Ron Dennis grabbed around the shoulder right after Q3?) and they helped him time his pit exit to either give him a good, clean lap or purposely torpedoing Hamilton's chances of getting a last lap in?
I know the "new" story is Alonso was on the radio complaining about them putting scrubbed hard tires on and such, but it's weird that there was another guy counting him off.
This was a top-down shot that has since been removed from YouTube, but the guy was further down the pit row and was wearing McLaren team outfit... he pointed his finger at the exact moment Alonso left.
Since nobody else is saying anything about this, I wonder if Alonso is getting some support within the team (the guy Ron Dennis grabbed around the shoulder right after Q3?) and they helped him time his pit exit to either give him a good, clean lap or purposely torpedoing Hamilton's chances of getting a last lap in?
I know the "new" story is Alonso was on the radio complaining about them putting scrubbed hard tires on and such, but it's weird that there was another guy counting him off.
I saw that after review the DVR. It was weird... The guy was... you guys have to see it to understand.
Huh, that is weird.
Doesn't make any sense though. If the team held Alonso up Alonso would have been the first to say so. The "wrong tires" story never changed. That was Alonso's first story and he stuck to it. He also could have challenged the stewards' penalty and used that footage to prove it. That 5 grid penalty devastated his chances for the title.
I don't believe it. I think Alonso held him up on his own. The more I read about the team's inner workings the more I know there's a lot going on we don't know. One thing suggests the team are supporting Hamilton, then Alonso, then neither...who knows.
One thing I do believe is that Hamilton is driving better than anyone expected and I think Alonso, trailing in the championship points, was hoping for a little more support from everyone. Instead, all eyes and efforts are with Hamilton and Alonso just isn't getting the support he needs.
Ron Dennis was not too chill with Alonso's race engineer. Look like Dennis want to kill him...lol
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