JH4NA1182TT000113 Sebring Silver 1996 NSX For sale at manheim

Brian has owned and sold around 30 nsxs and he was interested in buying this one before ryan had it. The prior owner told brian it was damaged and repaired and Brian had the chance to check out the car so I put my money on his opinion before that of someone who "hates Hondas".

And the honest thing to do is state in the listing than Mannheim listed it with a unibody repair and then invite buyers to confirm your description in light of that.
 
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So, again, all your info is 3rd hand. Not first or second. I listed what I was told by Manheim and the tools I have. Manheim told me they were not 100% sure about the damage or repair, I did not see it and both history reports show no accidents.

For some reason you feel that I tried to hide something. You are the only person that has said that this car was in an accident, that has communicated with me, and you have never seen the car in person.

I don't know Brian but if he would like to give me more insight on what he knows that would be wonderful. But you have shown me no credentals for me to listen to you.

For some reason you have a hard on for me about this car. Why don't you come check it for yourself??? I get it in the lift for you and you can take a look.

This is a very beautiful car, in what I would say is outstanding condition but I've been up front about paint work and what I was told. To be honest, it seems like most of these available have had some accident or paint work of some kind. Of course now you will say, "not mine!" in your angry typing font.

Come by my shop, check out the car, and tell everyone what you think about it. When can expect you?

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By the way, if that's your artwork, you are a pretty amazing photographer. Just saying.
 
It's my understanding that the tags affixed to the car during production are more accurate as to what the car was actually born with rather than what is in the database. Assuming it doesn't have a counterfeit color code tag, which I believe most people that have seen the car are confident that it does not, the car was produced by the factory as a sebring silver / black car.

In looking at the eBay posting, what bothers me about this is that the color code label looks like it has been tampered with. However, the VIN label looks intact with no signs of repaint, but it would need a close up inspection in person to confirm the authenticity of the color being a factory job.
 
In looking at the eBay posting, what bothers me about this is that the color code label looks like it has been tampered with. However, the VIN label looks intact with no signs of repaint, but it would need a close up inspection in person to confirm the authenticity of the color being a factory job.

Hi Ben,
I hope all is well. There are some closeup pictures of the tags in this thread:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ring-Silver-FACTORY-PAINTED-jh4na1182tt000113

It looks to me like the tags may have been masked up during a repaint of the door jamb, although not sure why the door jamb/jambs would have been painted?

I'm also not sure why someone would presumably mask up the color code tag other than to preserve it?

Chris
 
No seller voluntarily announces unibody at the sale...they do it to avoid an arbitration whens some dealer finds it up to 30 days later. For those unaware - the seller is the one that types in the announcements, not Manheim (unless it pops as tmu/salvage on autocheck) Then they have to come give the money back and take back the car. As a dealer I bought a 2 yr old luxury car, and noticed 2 weeks and 200 miles later that the back door pops a little too much, arbed that thing for unibody and the auction/seller had to buy it back off me.
Usually they only announce unibody/frame when they know for sure it's been bent, manheim will kick a car for unibody if they see clamp marks on the rails in their PSI, so actual damage is likely in that scenario.
I'm curious as to why the sale at 34.5k was cancelled, and then re run the next week where you bought it for 32k. He must have not turned in the title same day, or it was green light and got arbed and re run the next week.

Manheim condition report when car was first listed on ove indicated the problems you listed, as well as "paint run" on the right rear quarter panel...Door jamb stickers also indicate a bad tape job on the likely full repaint, i'll buy the fact that it was silver when delivered to the first owner. These items would lead reasonable people to believe a full respray or collision, not limited to front fenders...
 
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Mkethpn, you are wrong, the way Manheim works, I will clear this up for everyone, you can purchase what us called a condition report where they will check the condition of the car of the body, interior and working condition of the car. This car got a 4.0 out of 5.0. I spoke to Donna who works in that department and she told me that they believed there was unibody repair and believed a fender was replaced. Not announcing frame allows the buyer to return the car within 7 days, not 30, if the car sells for over $3000. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH CARFAX, Manheim does not use Carfax, they use Autocheck.

This car was announced with a green light by accident because the selling dealer did not own the car. I then requested a Post Sale Inspection, Manheim could not provide that because the car was to low for their ramps. They allowed me, because I am one of there top 5 buyers every single month, to take the car to my shop for my own inspection and gave me until noon the following day.

I found that the climate control was inop, called arbitration to bring it in for them to look at, I was called 5 minutes later saying there would be no price adjustment and the seller, an employee of Manheim, wanted the car back to show it to another buyer.

That Saturday I saw it on Manheim's OVE website for sale for $32000, which I thought was an outstanding price. I spoke to the seller on why he listed like that and it was all personal reason and that the car needed to be liquidated.

So now that everyone knows my store, what I paid, and understands why I write the ad the way I did, feel free to ask any other questions or come see the car in person.

To state one more thing, the door jams do not look repainted at all. Every nook and cranny is silver. Come see it.

If you have any questions about Manheim arbitration policy feel free to ask, I know it inside out. I didn't get to 150 on my lot by accident.
 
SUMMARY. Any extra value for the car being Sebring is gone as the car has been repainted
So this car is now just another repainted nsx that will never be right again. I would put the value at 10k less then a comparable mileage car of the same year with good original paint
 
How can you say that? This is a factory painted car. Some repainted parts can not chop the value by $10k!!! If custom body work was done then value you be based on taste. If paint work was by an accident, then I would say value deduction would be based on severity of the damage. A replaced fender to me is not severe and was not severe enough to show on any history report.

No one has 100% validated an accident but no one has said paint work hasn't happened. Spending time finding values on similar cars I believe this car to be in the $42-$45k range.

***Also, this car has been lowered, Manheim will anounce frame for this. They go by NAAA policy and is clearly written that any altered suspension constitutes "frame damage". That was confirmed by the arbitration manager at Manheim Philadelphia to me.
 
Have you ever seen a factory painted nsx? If the pictures posted of the door jams are from this Sebring nsx, then if you had seen a factory painted nsx, you would say this is a repaint. Now if the car is a repaint then the fact is once was factory Sebring is irrelevant and the larger corncern should be why was it repainted in the first place.
 
Hi Ben,
I hope all is well. There are some closeup pictures of the tags in this thread:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ring-Silver-FACTORY-PAINTED-jh4na1182tt000113

It looks to me like the tags may have been masked up during a repaint of the door jamb, although not sure why the door jamb/jambs would have been painted?

I'm also not sure why someone would presumably mask up the color code tag other than to preserve it?

Chris

I took a look at the pics in the thread. The color code label definitely looks like it's been tampered with at some point, i.e., there is the possibility that it has been peeled off another Sebring Silver NSX and affixed to this car. These color code labels are not available outside the factory, so an untampered label is key when authenticating factory one-offs. The driver doorjamb VIN label, it's hard to say. 3 of the edges look clean, while the top edge seems not right, however a mask and repaint would show on all 4 edges. So, I think the jury is still out on this one whether it is a factory Sebring Silver or not. Only a close up inspection of the actual car will be able to shed more light on it.

The doojambs would have been painted if the car was a full repaint (a color change, for example)
 
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The paint code sticker has a corner of the laminate flipped up a bit. The sticker is solid, the backing is solid, it is just a small part of the corner.
Everyone is caught up on the door jams, LOOK AT THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. All the cross members are silver, the labels are all there and dirty. It looks like the engine compartment has never been cleaned. It is dusty and has normal grime.
Everyone here is making speculations on a car they have never seen in person.

Come to the shop and look. If this car was repainted to Sebring Silver then the whole car was stripped apart and it was a long time ago. I will work on taking more photos, possible tomorrow or Monday and post them on my site, www.mycarcorner.com
 
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Factory nsx fit, finish is very good. Please see attached a picture of the same area from my previous silver 2005 nsx. This is what the door jamb looks like from the factory

Compare the above to the ones on the Sebring nsx and something clearly isn't right. It is like the labels are from another car or were removed and reapplied or something. All I know is this clearly is not factory work
 

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You can't compare a 10 year difference from any car company no matter how good. Also remember, this car was not planned to be this color. Cars are done by machine when painted at the factory, this car was painted a color that wasn't done for 3 years, 1993 was the last year for this color. The car could have been pulled aside and done by hand at the factory.
Don't assume this car was treated the same way as others if it was a special order by a man who was buying 15 of these a year!

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Excused me, the article reads a few a year for 15 years.
 
If you want I can post the door jambs up from my 1997 nsx and from my 1993 nsx. The finish is perfect on all of them just like my ex 2005 I posted and their is no reason for this area to be messed with.... Unless something else was going on
 
The paint code sticker has a corner of the laminate flipped up a bit. The sticker is solid, the backing is solid, it is just a small part of the corner.
Everyone is caught up on the door jams, LOOK AT THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. All the cross members are silver, the labels are all there and dirty. It looks like the engine compartment has never been cleaned. It is dusty and has normal grime.
Everyone here is making speculations on a car they have never seen in person.

Come to the shop and look. If this car was repainted to Sebring Silver then the whole car was stripped apart and it was a long time ago. I will work on taking more photos, possible tomorrow or Monday and post them on my site, www.mycarcorner.com

As I stated previously, only a detailed inspection in person of the actual car will yield answers at this point.

It doesn't matter if it's the sticker itself or the laminate flipped up. The point is that most other cars have labels that are nice and flat, with no defects, but this one does not. Why? I've seen enough of these to know that the laminate under normal conditions will not flip up unless an attempt was made to peel the label off from where it was originally applied.

That said, I'm not saying that it is not a factory Sebring Silver, but it cannot be definitively proved to be one based on pictures of the labels alone.

Engine compartment being silver doesn't mean anything in itself - those can be repainted outside the factory too, and I've seen it done. The underhood labels are all available as replacements outside the factory - so their presence doesn't prove anything in itself either.

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You can't compare a 10 year difference from any car company no matter how good. Also remember, this car was not planned to be this color. Cars are done by machine when painted at the factory, this car was painted a color that wasn't done for 3 years, 1993 was the last year for this color. The car could have been pulled aside and done by hand at the factory.
Don't assume this car was treated the same way as others if it was a special order by a man who was buying 15 of these a year!

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Excused me, the article reads a few a year for 15 years.

I've seen plenty of 1991-1992 cars, including ones with 200K+ miles, with no special attention paid to preserving the labels, and the labels are nice and flat, as they came from the factory. If anything, I've probably seen more of these labels than anyone outside the factory, and something is different with the labels on this particular car.

Sebring Silver was available in Japan and other markets for the entire production run of the NSX, just not in the US after 1993. So, as far as the factory was concerned, they were building Sebring Silver cars all along, so if this one is indeed a factory Sebring Silver, no special attention or procedure would have been needed in building it, and it would have left the factory like any other NSX, with no defects in the labels or otherwise.

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You can not say it is not factory work. You don't know because you have never seen the car in person.

You are right - we cannot say at this point that it is not a factory job - it very well may be. But, we also cannot prove that it definitively is a factory job either based on the information and photos that have been posted.

Only a detailed inspection of the actual car by someone who knows what to look for will determine anything.
 
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Having done a color change before on an NSX, this should be an easy mystery to solve. I removed every single sticker from the car I did the color change on except for the VIN sticker and can tell you that it would be impossible to remove one of these stickers and have it anywhere near usable again. Also, when I did the color changer circa '08 I was told I bought what was the last emissions sticker for the firewall. Not sure if you can get them now or not.

It does look like the stickers were masked and the door jamb repainted. It's too bad this car can't talk, as it definitely has some stories to tell. I pulled this pic from carcorners website. If I were a betting man I suspect some knuckle head probably peeled the corners of these stickers previously to try and authenticate whether this is indeed a factory one-off. Or pehaps the door jambs were masked during the possible repaint and part of the sticker lifted when removing the masking tape. It's all speculation, but I thought someone had already basically authenticated that this was in fact a factory one-off. Is there supposedly another one of these that Larry Ellison got?

6D867A25-9082-4043-87C0-947673A92FD3_15.jpg
 
Spending time finding values on similar cars I believe this car to be in the $42-$45k range. .

As someone who has been in the market for the better part of 6 months looking for a car, you aren't even close. Besides, this car was well shopped prior to being listed at Manhiem. How do I know this? I spoke in depth to the listing party; multiple times. Every single other party passed on the car at the price you paid after getting the known history directly from the inheritors of the car. Me being one of those parties. As to its value TODAY, given it's history, condition and recent comps I personally don't believe you are getting near $30K and the bids you saw on eBay were a gift (assuming they were actually legit bids; which have been questioned as well). I have watched every damned transaction I can see and I have not seen an NA1 car in perfect condition trade for anywhere close to $45K. You have to keep in mind: the 1995-1996 vintage are generally less desirable.

Personally, I think you got caught up in some of the recent hype and press about the NSX and thought you were getting some amazing deal on some super rare one-off. Unfortunately, the combined knowledge and sleuthing on these boards is well beyond what any single individual can do (yes, including you). You know, not every time you buy a car is it a great deal. So what, you over paid for one car. It's not such a big deal. Just move on to the next.

The irony of this whole situation is that the more that gets posted here, the more history is available to all potential buyers. At this point, anyone who is interested in looking at the car WILL Google search the VIN and this thread is going to come up. At this point, any rarity or mystique around this car is gone. It's history will be forever questioned and as one poster stated, even if this car was in fact painted Sebring at the factory, the subsequent work done on the car has negated that. At this point, all you have is a 1996 NSX that HAS been in an at least one accident that has required body work and repainting to multiple areas of the car. The work on some areas WORSE than others. Let's compound on top of that there has been work done to the car (fender shaving) that CANNOT be un-done. Do we need even need to address that there are a whole lot of mechanical things that don't work?

My bottom line (by no means an authority, but have done enough work to speak confidently): I've seen numerous excellent NA1 cars trade over the last few months for between $36K-38K; numerous people ASKING $42k-$45k but not a single one sold there. And I think socalx is SPOT ON that the value for your car is about $10K less for a car that will "never be right again." If it's got frame damage (which no one has been definitively been able to confirm or deny), knock some more off of that.

Edit: holy cow, really?
shill bids.jpg
 
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The "fact" that is beyond dispute, is that this car has a "story". Story cars, no matter what the story, bring less $$$. Now, if you were able to get the Honda Factory to issue a "letter" as to what the "story" is, and attest to the reasons behind the mislabeled car (production white, now silver), that might make it a story that makes it more (not less) valuable. I don't care which "expert" is willing to testify that the car is "perfect", without Honda's telling of the "truth", it's all just "stories", and is worth less than a non-storied car
 
Well, again, most talk out of their ass about a car they have never seen. I keep repeating that because that is an important fact. No matter what, this is an amazing car and I really don't care what the story is. It's a great car that I'll just drive and enjoy. And remember, just because you own an NSX and a computer does not make you an expert on every one in the world. Just saying...

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Here you go, I just peeled back the corner of the color sticker AND the vin sticker which people seem to say can not be replaced. BOTH HAVE SILVER UNDERNEATH. Also, there is a photo of the vin plate in the engine compartment, there no way of painting that and having the letters be that crisp. IMG_7774.jpgIMG_7776.jpgIMG_7778.jpgIMG_7779.jpgIMG_7784.jpg

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I see where people see tape marks around the stickers but someone may have touched up nicks or blended some scratches. The story is this car is a one off color and it had some paint work. No reports of an accident. THAT'S THE STORY! Not one person can prove anything else, if you can, do it. Stop speculating, YOU DON'T KNOW.
 
The pedigree of this car has always listed this and one other Sebring (ellison's personal car) as being factory "favor" paint jobs in a year the color wasn't used for our market. There actually is a brooklands green similar car with a white vin listing but also appears to have been a factory special in a year green didn't get shipped here. Playing devils advocate I would support car corner on this issue.

Nevertheless, it has had a repaint so the "special" one off (actually two off that year) uniqueness is decreased, the extent to which depends on how the panels match.

All in all, it should be priced similar to a car of that vintage and background without any value added for its relationship to Ellison.
 
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That's the first thing I agree with from RSO, I don't believe there is added value because of the history unless you must have Sebring Silver or a one of a kind car. The paint work does take away some of the value. I feel that the paint match is excellent and the finish is amazing. I have had a lot of cars painted in my 16 years in the car business, I many know a thing or two.
 
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