Is War Worth it!?

[HOLLYWOOD]

Let's end this going nowhere topic with some humor.

YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
by George Carlin


I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. I am George Carlin.

I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some mid level governmental functionary be it Democratic or Republican!

I'm in touch with my feelings and I like it that way, damn it!

I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer, it makes you a smart American.

I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and does not entitle you to anything.

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, try to do it in English.

I think fireworks should be legal on the 4th of July.

I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster. In fact, if your parents are footing the bill to put your pansy ass through 4 years plus of college, you haven't begun to be enlightened.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they want to.

My heroes are John Wayne, Babe Ruth, Roy Rogers, and whoever canceled Jerry Springer.

I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor.

I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about it.

I think global warming is a big lie. Where are all those experts now, when I'm freezing my ass off during these long winters and paying, paying, paying?

I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years In the desert after getting chased out of Egypt. I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you! So, shut-the-Hell-up already.

I want to know which church is it exactly where the Reverend Jesse Jackson practices, where he gets his money, and why he is always part of the problem and not the solution. Can I get an AMEN on that one?

I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if you're running from them..

I also think they have the right to pull your ass over if you're breaking the law, regardless of what color you are.

I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't want you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the world for the next four years.

I dislike those people standing in the intersections trying to sell me crap or trying to guilt me into making "donations" to their cause. These people should be targets.

I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes two parents.

If this makes me a BAD American, then yes, I'm a BAD American.

If you are a BAD American too, please forward this to everyone you know.

We need our country back!

 

[Electro]

Once again, my points have been construed in a way that portrays me to be an extreme leftist... to which I am not and would never claim to be. (A true leftist would be proud to say they were)

Secondly, I didn't say I am against ALL war... I never said that.

For once, Please, everyone -READ what I have to say for what it's worth and don’t read INTO what I'm saying. From now on, I will note what phrases are sarcastic (for those that are unable to follow my sarcasm - which seems to be everyone here) And I'm sure it’s easy to remember that I have no 'credibility'... Oh and remember I'm no history professor or historian... so it really doesn't matter what I say.

 

[Electro]

In fact, it really doesn't matter what anyone says one way or another...what difference does it make? I'm not going to convince anyone of anything (David have at it again - I know you love your copy & paste functions) and no one is going to convince me of anything. You all can continue to tell me you think you understand what I'm saying but it's very obvious to me no one does. Reason being is because I'm too busy trying to defend myself from all directions from people that think I’m Anti-American or ultra-liberal. Once again, either of which I AM NOT.

Why do I have such a hard time explaining myself on this board? How do I really know anyone is really reading what I'm saying? To me it seems like everyone's just picking what I say at random, and taking it completely out of context from what I was referring to.

 

[Electro]

This doesn’t happen to me in everyday life... I have no problems explaining my points to anyone ...so why does it happen here? I have to explain the most complex things to even the most non-technical people... in very very basic terms..

Contrary to what everyone seems to think, it's not a matter of my intelligence... I'm a systems engineer for crying out loud -I don't think I have to explain what complex ideas and such I have to create etc... I don’t care what that means to you or not. And yes it is possible for someone to have a high IQ and not have any common sense... I'm not saying I'm a super genius but I can hold my own in debating just about anything.

What I cannot tolerate though is having people resort to personal attacks to try and disarm or discredit their opponent.

 

[Electro]

I know that I have partaken in this activity but it was only in jest and in response to those that have tried to personally attack me.

Now for Spencer's questions:

Again, I am not totally against war.
I am not totally against war.
I am not totally against war.
I am not totally against war.

Did you catch it that time? One more time:

I am not totally against war.

As a matter of fact, I believe war can be a good thing. You know, population control... economical reasons etc... That sort of thing. (And yes I'm being serious not sarcastic) Of course death is a scary thing for most people...

 

[Electro]

But I think this planet is so over populated that there will be no avoiding war in the very near future... however long it lasts is how long it lasts... That is until there are no more people left that care to fight... Which is why I think war is a good thing. Those that want to fight - Go right ahead! Do it...kill each other... make more room for those of us that don’t want anything to do with it.

Now lets read the title of this thread carefully: "IS WAR WORTH IT?!"... Now lets break that down... IS WAR WORTH IT? ... Depends on what "WORTH" means to YOU... Money wise to some it would be a good thing... There are a million ways to interpret the word WORTH in this phrase... to some the answer to this question would be yes -for one reason or another... in the same token, the answer would be no, for other reasons that may conflict with others' reasons.

 

[Electro]

So let's just nuke the fuq out of Iraq and North Korea and then we'll deal w/ who ever is left on an individual basis... that would take care of lots of issues right now... That's where it's headed anyways so why not be "pre-emptive" like we've been talking?

I think NATO is on its way out the door anyways.... Again, think what you will, say what you want...its not going to change ANYTHING.... be it what I believe or what happens in this world. The ball is rolling... war is coming... there's nothing you or me can do about it... so just sit back and have a few beers and watch the world fall apart on your TV in the comfort of your LAY-Z-BOY.

-Electro

 

[Jimbo]

Electro,

Why don't you answer Spencer's or my questions?

I've certainly not been twisting your words, but yet you've not answered a single question. Anytime anyone tries to be reasonable you seem to introduce new concepts, issues and make odd outrageous statements (i.e. war is a good way to reduce population, Hawaii isn't really part of the USA, etc)

So, let me try once again...

You've stated that you think this war isn't worth it. You've stated (in so many words) that you believe our gov't doesn't care about minimizing civilian casualties. You've offered your reasons for NOT going into Iraq as being...Iraqi human rights, civilian casualties, what the rest of the world would think of the US and a few more...

So let me try again. Here's some simple question that would (I believe) help me understand where you're coming from.

A) Do you believe Saddam Hussein possesses WMDs?

B) Do you think our gov't is lying when they claim that he does?

C) If you don't think Saddam has WMDs, do you think that if he did get a hold of them, that he would hesitate to use them against us? Likewise, if you think he does have them. Would he hesitate to use them?

D) Did you object to the USA's involvement in Somalia, Yugoslavia or Bosnia? If yes or no, why?

E) Do you think we should act militarily if there's any chance of civilian casualties?

F) What do you think about Saddam's attempt to assassinate former Pres Bush? Do you think that action is worthy of some kind of response?

G) When you mentioned the rights of the Iraqi people, do you think they have any rights under the present regime?

H) Assuming that our government knows Saddam has WMDs, and assuming they know that he will use them against the USA when he gets the chance, do you think our gov't should take action? And should we take action regardless if a few countries object?

I) Why do you think France, Germany and Russia object to any military action against Iraq? Do you think it's because they're more patient, reasonable or civilized than the US?

J) If you believe that more inspectors and more prolonged inspections are a good idea, please explain why?

K) Do you think the continued appeasment of Saddam, particularly if it continues, will be a problem for the world community when it comes time to deal with North Korea?

 

[Sig]

Originally posted by Electro:
I am not totally against war.

As a matter of fact, I believe war can be a good thing. You know, population control... economical reasons etc... That sort of thing. (And yes I'm being serious not sarcastic) Of course death is a scary thing for most people...

Oh my. Electro, I must say that I am in awe that I just read those words coming from your hands. Not a bad awe or a good awe, just surprised. Wow! Let me get this straight, in your eyes.... one of the acceptable reasons for war is population control?
I'm not sure if this equates, but my first thought is to say sarcastically... And abortion is a wonderful contraceptive.

Under this logic, one could contend that the attacks on 9/11 in NYC were justifiable because of the over population in this small geographic area. This is not an attack, just a statement to show why it is difficult for one to see the logic behind war as a means of population control.

To be honest , I have never thought of placing population control and war together. However, it seems that if something like population control makes war justifiable in your eyes, surely I would think your views of more realistic reasons for war would be different.

Electro, as a side note I am curious to your answers to the previously proposed questions. I have read all of your posts and have seen predominantly rhetorical questions in your posts. Now that nobody is attacking you, perhaps you can outline what you would do. I don't want to rewrite the questions from Spencer, so perhaps you can scroll up and read them.
**********************
Jimbo just posted a bunch of questions right before my post hit the board. So use his questions since they are on the same page.


[This message has been edited by Sig (edited 12 February 2003).]

 

[Spencer]

Just as I thought.

Since Electro doesn't have any real alternative to war with Iraq (at least that he'd like to share with us) he offers nothing, choosing instead to repeat: "I am not totally against war" four times...and a few other comments equally mature. I thought it was a simple question; but what do I know? (If only I were a systems engineer. I guess I'd exhibit more logic.)

In the end, it's always really easy to sit at the sidelines and criticize. It's much harder, however, to advance an idea that solves a problem...

 

[Electro]

Consider this discussion over.

Everything I've said has been used to mock me in one way or another.

I'm sure everyone has their reasons for justifying this...

Let's just end this now - I really dont have time to try and defend myself against people who insist on insulting me.

I know I know its all my fault - I brought it on my self.. Forgive me if you cant follow my rhetorical quetions and abstract statements mixed with sarcasm and humor... its my way of dealing with stress. So lets just give up now. I dont care to "have the last word" i'm sure everyone's going to pick apart this post as well and point out every little mistake I may have made.

-Electro

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 February 2003).]

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
David have at it again - I know you love your copy & paste functions

Well, you could try undercutting my cut & paste strategy by not saying incredibly irrational or completely baseless things........

; )

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
there's never been an invasion, or direct and coordinated military attack against US soil (well none that's of any significance)

Couldn't resist this, since it comes from someone who admits to know little or nothing about history, then makes statements about history. How can you make a statement like this when you have told us you have no interest outside of what has occured during your own lifetime?

Ask any highschool student - the War of 1812. The British invaded Florida. Oh, and before that, they marched around the East Coast generally kicking our butts. Burned a city called Washington. D.C. I know you're not into politics, but you may have heard of it. Its our nation's capital. I would say that capturing and burning a nation's capital city qualifies as an invasion of its homeland.

But, DC is so far from LA, it really isn't part of the same country......

 

[Electro]

How did you know? that's exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time.

 

[Jimbo]

Electro,

I really haven't mocked you or treated you all that poorly. I have been surprised at some of your answers, however, and I may have made a few comments, but certainly nothing that should have caused you to such distress.

If you do not wish to answer my questions, that OK.

You know there are some valid arguments that one could make against war.

For example, if you were to say that you're a pacifist and you thought ALL war or killing was against your beliefs, even in the case of self defense, then I'd be the first to say you had a valid point.

But you didn't really offer that as a reason.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

President George Bush said:

"We're a peaceful nation."


"This is the calling of the United States of America.
The most free nation in the world. A nation built on
fundamental values that reject hate, reject violence,
rejects murderers and rejects evil. We will not tire."



Here is a list of the countries that America has been at
war with - and bombed - since the second world war:


China (1945-46, 1950-53)

Korea (1950-53)

Guatemala (1954, 1967-69)

Indonesia (1958)

Cuba (1959-60)

Belgian Congo (1964)

Peru (1965)

Laos (1964-73)

Vietnam (1961-73)

Cambodia (1969-70)

Grenada (1983)

Libya (1986)

El Salvador (1980s)

Nicaragua (1980s)

Panama (1989)

Iraq (1991-99)

Bosnia (1995)

Sudan (1998)

Yugoslavia (1999)



Certainly it does not tire - this,
the most free nation in the world.

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425&CFID=4881970&CFTOKEN=37687738[/ URL]

-Electrohttp://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425&CFID=4881970&CFTOKEN=37687738

Let's examine the link you posted as a support for your postion.

First, hes says:

an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of Hiroshima and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki.

Well, what a credible, unbiased source. Bombing the city of an enemy nation that launch a devistating surprise attack against us is 'gratuitous'. Right. He clearly shares your deep understanding of history. The bombings in Japan were on seperate days for a reason. After each, we formally asked them to surrender. They refused after Hiroshima and finally accepted after Nagasaki.

Your super-credible source then goes on to say of the plan to attach Bagdad:

It would be a firestorm, a Dresden with 60 years of new technology.

Huh? First, the missles are to be srpead over two days, so they would not cause a Dresden-like fire storm. Second, the warheads used on cruise missles can not start a Dresden-like firestorm. Third, every other account I have seen of the same briefing (including the other link you posted) specifically states the only non-military targets in Bagdad will be water and power plants. Exactly what you hit when you want to demoralize a large civilian population but cause an absolute minimum of casualties. Again, he seems to use historical referrences the same way that you do.

This is not nit-picking. This is clearly a biased, ill-informed source and yet you seem oblivious to that and post the link as if it will somehow support your position. Again, how can we take your position seriously when you do things like this?


[This message has been edited by David (edited 12 February 2003).]

 

[David]

Originally posted by HOLLYWOOD:
President George Bush said:

"We're a peaceful nation."


"This is the calling of the United States of America.
The most free nation in the world. A nation built on
fundamental values that reject hate, reject violence,
rejects murderers and rejects evil. We will not tire."



Here is a list of the countries that America has been at
war with - and bombed - since the second world war:


[edited out long list of shitty countries]


Certainly it does not tire - this,
the most free nation in the world.

Yeah, okay, we get it already - America is bad. Now please say something interesting.

(BTW, you are still wrong about the motor oil)

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
Forgive me if you cant follow my rhetorical quetions and abstract statements mixed with sarcasm and humor...

<sniff> You already pointed out near the beginning of the thread that if people disagree with you it is because they are from an ignorant culture. Please stop reminding me of how backwards I am - you're going to make me cry. ; )

 

[David]

Damnit!!!!!!

I wasted so much time on this stupid thread that I missed the beginning of Cowboy Bebop.

 

[Jimbo]

Hey David,

It must be really horrible for these guys to live in a country that they hate so much. That's one thing I never quite understand about people who think like this.

If they truly believe that America is the Great Warmongering Satan, then why in the hell do they choose to live here?

Afterall, these complaints, if one is to believe them, aren't minor quibbles, they feel about the USA, like I feel about Iraq.

They certainly have the freedom of speech to say whatever they like, but one has to wonder why they don't simply choose another country?

-J

 

[Electro]

"shitty countries" ? Hahahah

Ok I'm going to respond with something that would normally come from you.

"Are you saying these countries are shitty because you think you are superior to them? Do you feel that the people of those countries are less than equal to this country? You must feel that way or you wouldn't have said it. You are obviously more intelligent than those "shitty countries" because you said that. You are Anti-(insert cleverly chosen noun here)."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This Above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is the type of reply you give me to one or two words I have...

You really dont know what I stand for...

This whole thread really demonstrates why I hate politics so much... its entirely useless.

-E

 

[Electro]

God Jimbo... You're really stretching it there.

Where did I say that I hate the United States? Once again, you have no idea who I am or what I believe. So just stop trying to figure me out. The more you try, the more I'll try to confuse you.

Show me. It must have slipped out somewhere amongst all the other, such telling facts I was spilling out about myself...

-E

 

[Electro]

If I truly cared and took this discussion seriously, I would have invested more time to dig up more info to back up my points...

Thats why most of my posts are hard to follow - I post them while I'm at work doing other things... this is no test... what does it matter what anyone thinks of what I say? It really doesnt matter. No one's going to convince me of anything... and I'm not going to convince anyone of anything... thats the facts.

but honestly, I dont care... and now its just too far gone for anyone to leave it alone...

So do us all a favor and drop it...

My ranting and raving is done...

-E

 

[NeoNSX]

U guys still b!tching over the war?

Sad that the longest thread on prime (that I've ever seen) has also been the most unproductive one.