Is War Worth it!?

[LJSB]

Some people live for awhile in Atlanta amongst the "rednecks" but belong in Hollywood so, they go there.
Better for both.
If you grew up in NY and live there and had friends killed in the WTC and have listened to the weeping of families in the next pew because the family is short one member you look at things in a different perspective.

Hollywood is a whole lot closer to N.Korea than NY.

When there's the reality and potential for attack I tend to think National then, global.

As they say in Woodstock "One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day".

 

[NeoNSX]

this is all getting much too serious....

 

[LJSB]

Neo, cool E-Fect on yo Avatar.

 

[huckster]

just to make sure everyone knows what I think about this;

you DID try to further your argument by claiming midwesterners were too stupid to understand/decide for themselves.

That sort of contention has always been the argument behind dictatorships and other bad decisions worldwide. Bigotry is how it always starts.

I may or may not agree with your opinion on foreign policy, but I'd never assume the reason you disagree is because youre from a notoriously stupid region of the nation.

So, do what is right. Defend you position or apologize and admit your error.

 

[sinister midget]

i've read all the good stuff going on with this thread, and i'd like to say that i'm one of the rednecks being disparaged here, and i have a word on the subject.

not only am i a redneck native texan, but i'm a cherokee/white boy half-breed at that. not only that, but my first wife was from northern california, my second wife was a jewish girl from poughkeepsie/mount kisco, new york, and my third wife is from...you guessed it, southern california.

i have lived in germany, australia, and japan, and i have visited lots of other places. i have visited or lived in 30 of our 50 great states (although none as great as texas!). as an aircraft mechanic in the air force, i worked blackbirds (that's right, SR-71's), U-2's, and F-4 wild weasels. after getting out and getting my degree, i now work and travel with other types of aircraft, which members of the air force flying community can probably discern based on my location given at left.

so, as with viper driver, some 400 posts back, i have more than a passing interest in what goes on over yonder (to use a redneckism).

what i have discovered is that people are just trying to get through this life the best they can, and it doesn't matter where they're from, who's their leader, or what form of government they have.

another brilliant discovery of mine is that all wars, yes, ALL wars, are based on economics (no flames, think about it, who benefits from a war and why?). who has the money vs. who wants it. money = power = control. remember our friend king solomon, who said "the LOVE of money is the root of all (that's ALL) evil." clever people have masked their motivations with idealogy and jingoism, so that the common people have something to believe in that is bigger than themselves.

so, next time you see a veteran, remember what you have...not just freedom TO, but also freedom FROM...just send a mental "thank you" for his/her contribution. whether you agree that the fight is right or wrong, the point is that someone has to protect your right to express that disagreement. some of us actually believe that what we're fighting for really matters, and that it's DEFINITELY worth it.

thank you for your support.

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dave
94 black/tan

 

[Electro]

I never intended for this discussion to become a flame war between who thinks what about what a real redneck is...

That wasnt my intention at all. I guess I mis-used the term and look where it got me. Everyone thinks I'm a bigot now, which I couldnt be anything further from that.

When I originally posted this message, I had already been talking to someone online about politics and was already a little heated... So take it as a rant and not as a personal attack. I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence ... I'm just saying that there are people in this world (yes the whole thing) that can not see outside of their own lives... otherwise we wouldnt have these current issues going on. That goes for people in the US, europe, asia and everywhere else. That's not me being a bigot, thats me being realistic. So I apologize if anyone misunderstood me... We can go back and pick apart every little word that everyone may or may not have said or meant... but it still doesnt answer any of the questions I orginally posed.

-Electro

 

[NeoNSX]

electro... u own an NSX so your political views are good enough for me.

same with everyone else...

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by sinister midget:


another brilliant discovery of mine is that all wars, yes, ALL wars, are based on economics (no flames, think about it, who benefits from a war and why?). who has the money vs. who wants it. money = power = control.

I suppose your right in some aspects, however alot have also been fought over freedom from that control. You know, the freedom to just get by or whatever else it would be called.



remember our friend king solomon, who said "the LOVE of money is the root of all (that's ALL) evil."

Well not exactly, it was the apostle Paul whom said it to his son Timothy in the context of gaining riches and those that would be high minded. I think Saddam is one such person with his palace's and dictatorship over his own countrymen and you can put the BinLadin along side too.

clever people have masked their motivations with idealogy and jingoism, so that the common people have something to believe in that is bigger than themselves.


Yes, they do it like rats which is exactly why were going to war. They subject weak minded people into they elimination of people that they don't agree with by killing them w/o any discretion which is what just happened in Kuwait only b/c they were working for the military. I don't want to understand that kind of culture b/c they never will see us on equal footing.



so, next time you see a veteran, remember what you have...not just freedom TO, but also freedom FROM...just send a mental "thank you" for his/her contribution. whether you agree that the fight is right or wrong, the point is that someone has to protect your right to express that disagreement. some of us actually believe that what we're fighting for really matters, and that it's DEFINITELY worth it.

thank you for your support.

Well said and thank you.



[This message has been edited by Tom Larkins (edited 21 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

If this article doesn't back up my arguemnt, then nothing will.

I'm not saying there's anything against someone serving in the military. That's up to one's own choice to do that. Who am I to say they're not doing what they should be doing. My point is that we as a nation have to do more to be sure we are TRULY "the GOOD guys" and not just say that we are and blast anyone who opposes it.

-Electro

Click here: Presidents lie to the American people.

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 25 January 2003).]

 

[Jimbo]

Ha!

Scott Ritter. Like he has any credibility now.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[Electro]

Why wouldn't he?

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
If this article doesn't back up my arguemnt, then nothing will.

If that's the best you can do; you got nothin'. An ex-inspector who was a mid-level intelligence wonk has a hard-on for the federal govt. So what? Let's look at a couple of his claims and judge his credibility, shall we?

He told the audience, “Presidents lie to the American people,” and cited the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964, when Lyndon Johnson used false claims that the US had been attacked by the North Vietnamese to get war powers authority from Congress. “That led to a 10-year nightmare, the death of 58,000 Americans and two million Vietnamese,” Ritter said.

Anyone who is so simple-minded they think the Gulf of Tonkin incident is the reason we went to war in Vietnam has no right to comment on either war or politics. What an idiot.

Because of his oppositional stand, Ritter’s public appearances have been largely ignored by the news media, consistent with its policy of censoring voices critical of Bush’s war drive.

This is self-serving to the point of bordering on delusional. The press is too timid to criticize the govt? What planet is he from? They LIVE for that. Its their dream. Maybe they don't pay attention to him because he's just another loud idiot with an axe to grind but nothing meaningful to say. Naaaaaaaaw, everyone in the media is part of giant comspiricy organized for the sole purpose of picking on him. Yeah, that's it.

Virtually all of Iraq’s weapons capacity was destroyed in the 1991 Gulf War and the ensuing seven years of inspections, Ritter told the audience. Whatever biological agents may have survived only had a shelf life of a few years, and have been rendered harmless. By 1996 the inspectors had accounted for 90-95 percent of Iraqi weapons capability

Huh? The principle case against Iraq by the UN is the ENORMOUS discrepency between the inventory they were KNOWN to have and admitted to having several years ago and the almost total lack of accountability for those weapons. They say "we don't have them" but offer NO explaination for where they went or how they were disposed of. Also, the main Iraqi chem/bio weapons (Sarin/Anthrax/etc.) have a shelf life of several decades and require almost nothing in the way of special storage, other than a sealed container.

In fact, anybody who has worn a uniform and served his country in time of war has come out against this war.

Hyperbole and bullshit. Truely the sign of an insightful, trustworthy source. To give you some idea of how far off base he is on this one, the guy who ran the air part of the gulf war and the guy who ran the ground part of the gulf war are both close family friends. They both feel very strongly that the only major mistake in that war was not eliminating the real root cause of it - Saddam Hussein.

In his remarks to the audience, Ritter predicted that the US would be at war with Iraq by Christmas.

Wow, this clown is really batting a thousand. War by Christmas? Funny, I just watched CNN and they didn't mention the war. Must be part of the big govt. conspiracy he keeps referring to. We all know how reporters say exactly what the president wants and never leak secrets, right?

[This message has been edited by David (edited 25 January 2003).]

 

[David]

While we argue the point, let's keep in mind who we are talking about here. Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who has repeatedly demonstrated he is incapable of participating in global politics in any civilized manner. He is somewhere between Pol Pot and Tito on the scale of all-time dictator assholes.

- Saddam Hussein has REPEATEDLY attacked his nieghbors without cause. This is not a recent tendency, but is something he has done throughout his riegn in his pathetic attempt to build an empire. As examples, he attacked Iran when he thought they were vulnerable due to their revolution. He attacked Kuwait when he (mistakenly) thought US interest in the region had wained to the point of apathy.

- Saddam Hussein kills his own people in enormous numbers.

- Saddam Hussein committed genocide agianst the Kurds and would continue to do so if the United Nations were not preventing him.

- Saddam Hussein tried to assasinate a former US president (we should have attacked him for this alone)

- Saddam Hussein has used chemical and biological weapons at every opportunity. This inlcudes killing thousands and thousands of Kurdish civilians (largely women and children).

So, this is the man who some are arguing is not evil enough for us to bother with.

Carry on.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 25 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Let's not forget the US that has also used nuclear weapons (hiroshima and nagasaki) and chemical weapons (agent orange had that affect in veitnam)...

We're not the 'good guys' we say we are.

Thats the whole point. You can pick apart anyone's 'story' and it will have holes in it... its all a matter of one's perspective.

Of course we're still going to blindly go into war and make more enemies than we have allies...

WAR! WAR! WAR! Get used to it.

It's a part of life. But that doesnt mean its always neccessary. Of course Saddam needs to be removed... but does that mean we have to be totally blind to the mistakes we've made? Oh no now we couldn't possibly make any mistakes... we're perfect.

-Electro

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 27 January 2003).]

 

[huckster]

Yeah, perfection does not exist for us or anyone else. But TRULY, the self-questioning you represent is in itself a byproduct of our great democracy. You cant say what you just said(wrote) in numerous other nations for fear of reprisal. In other nations where you CAN do this, it is thanks to the US policy of intervention. Overall, I think our foreign policy has not only served us well, but the entire world.

couple of quick points;
nuclear weapons were already 'out of the black bag' before we used them--germany had been working very hard on this technology. Part of the reason we and the russians worked so hard to see who could capture the most german scientists. NOT using the weapons could be debated endlessly, but the casualities would have been extreme had we assaulted the Japanese homeland. Many of us would not be here today if we hadnt used the nukes.

agent orange hardly counts as a chemical weapon--its a defoliant with side effects for humans who come into contact with it. We had REAL chemical weapons at the time and didnt use them. Weve refrained from this, with the exception of WWI--and we did not initiate the use, only responded.

Basically, I dont think our foreign policy is off. I also dont think the majority of american feel the way you do. At our core, we know we've been the good guys for the past 100yrs.

counterpoint??

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by Electro:
Let's not forget the US that has also used nuclear weapons (hiroshima and nagasaki) and chemical weapons (agent orange in veitnam)... We're not the 'good guys' we say we are.

Uh, agent orange was an herbicide with unintended side-effects, not a chemical weapon! If you think agent orange was a chemical weapon we used in Vietnam, I really question how informed you are about this whole issue.

I'd also love to hear why you think the decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan was wrong or made the US "bad guys."

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 25 January 2003).]

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
Let's not forget the US that has also used nuclear weapons (hiroshima and nagasaki)

Damn right we did. If you've got a problem with that, then, as far as I am concerned, you just cut the legs off any political opinion you post. I will not waste another second arguing politics or war with someone who thinks we should have taken Japan the same way we took the Solomons, Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima.

I guess a dumb redneck like me is just too simple-minded to comprehend how smart you are.

 

[Justin664]

Absolutely we used nukes on Japan. We used them to save lives. There were 3600 Marines killed in the first 48 hours on Iwo Jima. If the US were to fight that battle on every island to the Japanese mainland, just imagine the numbers of casulties (American and Japanese).

The Japanese fought to the death. They were ruthless soldiers. They killed the wounded, they killed the corpsmen trying to help the wounded. In occupied countries they killed men, women and children.

I would say that nuclear weapons were more than justified.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Electro-
Please stop, your not advancing your position by your past knowledge of world events & history, and by coming to the table w/Scott Ritter whom himself is of questionable character by blasting the UN for his removal as a inspector b/c Suddam had more weapons than diclosed in addition to "Boss Hog"-X-Pres and rightous one himself Clinton for letting the UN mis-lead him. Also Ritter has been questioned for advances w/a minor whom turned out to be a police officer. Do some homework man!!

My grandma in North Carolina use to say something that applyies here. "If you give enough rope to someone, they often hang by themself", and your past statements have demonstrated such example.

 

[Electro]

Wow this is an interesting read...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/26/sprj.irq.nuclear/index.html

"... the United States is preparing for the possible use of nuclear weapons against Iraq"

I don't know about you guys but I don't exactly want to see a nuclear war... do you?

-Electro

 

[Electro]

Originally posted by Lud:
Uh, agent orange was an herbicide with unintended side-effects, not a chemical weapon! If you think agent orange was a chemical weapon we used in Vietnam, I really question how informed you are about this whole issue.

I'd also love to hear why you think the decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan was wrong or made the US "bad guys."

We as a nation are doing nothing to make sure we are truly perceived as the good guys... otherwise our questionable actions will be taken the wrong way and thereby creating more 'enemies'... why do you think 9/11 happened? It's certainly not because we're all fun loving hippies.

I think I'm very informed on the whole veitnam issue. I've been working on a documentary film about veitnam...studying everything very carefully. I've seen too much footage (gov't released footage of the actual spray operations too) of the children's hospitals of hundreds of still-born children and deformed that will never lead a normal life because of Agent Orange. And of course the gov't said its just 'commercial weed killer'...

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 27 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

If they truly believed that it would only kill the vegitation and not affect anyone, they're incredibly ignorant. Of course that could never be harmful to humans...its meant to kill living plants! We'll just let the chemical decide what's a plant and whats a human. Of course, did we know that they were using underground tunnels to get around? Who knows... but proper intelligence would show that it wouldnt matter if there were leaves on the trees or not. Anything that affects people for many generations to come is more than just a chemical weapon.

So you're saying killing 125,000+ people in Hiroshima and ~60,000-70,000 people (not to mention the hundreds that died of cancer) in Nagasaki in an instant is justified? The ramifications were certainly not analyzed. I dont think that these events are forgotten.

-Electro

 

[Electro]

Of course we can argue endlessly about who thinks who was justified in doing what and when and how bad this and that was.

Its pointless to continue to argue about bullshit that really doesnt change what has happened in the past.

"I think this nation was justified b/c of this" and "I think this nation was justified b/c of that"... its an endless debate which I'm not interested in perpetuating.

All we can do is try to keep mistakes from happening again. Not just from the U.S. But everywhere. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone has the right to police the world. As much as we'd like to =) I do think that something has to be done about Iraq... but I dont think we're going about it the right way... who knows what the 'right' way is anyways....

-Electro

 

[huckster]

Hey electro--i admire your willingness to dissent. You need to brush up your info/arguments however.

The firebombing missions killed scores more people than either nuclear mission. The firebombing missions were much more destructive. THAT would be a better example of our 'horrible wartime actions'.

Our use of nuclear technology was only a message that took all hope of conditional surrender or stalemate away from Japan. In doing so it saved several hundred thousand allied lives. Not to mention Japanese lives. Letting the war continue would have been much much worse for all countries involved.

I wont go back to the 'agent orange' thing. read up on this--if my memory is correct this primary ingredient(by monsanto?) was also used elsewhere for the purposes of plant control. Our own people suffered from effects---no machievellian plot here, just unintended/unknown side effects that occurred.

To my mind, there are very few ACTIONS that our country has taken which cause us shame. I CAN, however,think of several INACTIONS which are abhorrent to me. BOSNIA/yugoslavia is one.
CAMBODIA is another.
SEVERAL south american countries
AFGHANISTAN
SOMALIA
CUBA
and several others

So, basically, I find it ironic that you are arguing that we should be non-interventionists. I believe we should have been better friends to the worlds people, instead of allowing so many to be persecuted, subjugated, starved, raped, and excecuted by Dictators that they never chose.

counterpoint?

 

[Justin664]

The interesting read is nothing new. The US has had a standing policy of responding to attacks with a "like kind" response. If you use nuclear weapons on us, we will attack with an equivalent repsonse.

The firebombings of Japan by the US killed many thousands of more people than the 2 nuclear weapons. The nukes were dropped to force Hirohito to surrender. He and the military commanders were prepared to sacrifice every living soul in Japan, while inflicting as many losses on the US as possible. The nukes demonstrated to the leadership of Japan that their gameplan would not work.