Is the engine in the NA2 NSX-R different from the "base" 3.2L V6
- Thread starter Da Hapa
- Start date
zahntech said:
i'm not the only one according to the thread that seemed to kick off this theory:
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77832
but i suppose for purposes of being uptightly correct i should have said "people" instead of "everybody"... if it pleases his majesty, that is :tongue:
OneRedNSX said:
Funny how easy it is for you to twist things around by quoting segments of your like. That is the work of Michael moore. I guess my poor English alone will be the end of this argument.
Please allow me rephrase this, so OneRedNSX, my English professor can understand ME more clearly, since he started to treat this like a college research paper.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY HONDA TREATED STANDARD NSX ENGINES ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE IN THE NSX-R. ALL INTERNAL PARTS ARE THE SAME. AFTER ALL, THEY WERE BUILT IN THE SAME ASSEMBLY ROOM BY THE SAME “TWO” TECHS. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW IS THAT SINCE THE INTRODUCTION OF THE NA2 NSX-R IN MAY OF 02, ALL OF THE ENGINES RECEIVED THE SAME “R” TREATMENT, THEREOFRE, IT IS DIFFERENT THAN THE “PRE MID-O2” MODELS. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE “R” AND STANDARD MODEL IS WITHIN THE “NEW” DBW HARNESS, AND ECU, WHICH ARE “NOT” INTERNAL PARTS.
STANDARD NSXS MODELS SUCH AS “COUPE,” “T”, AND “S” BENEFITED FROM THE IMPROVED METHODS, HENSE RECEVIEVED HP INCREASE DURING THIS PROCESS. HOWEVER, SINCE JDM MARKET DOES NOT ALLOW ANY PS RATING OVER 280, HONDA RELEASED THE INFORMATION TO “HINT” THE PUBLIC THE CAR IS ACTUALLY MORE POWERFUL THAN ADVERTISED. SINCE NSX-R WAS NEVER OFFICIALLY EXPORTED OUT SIDE OF JAPAN, THEREFORE, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO TELL THE REST OF THE WORLD WHAT THE “TRUE” HP RATING. MOSTLY DUE TO THE FACT THAT JDM PUBLIC OUTCRY FOR HAVING A MORE INFERIOR MODLE WILL NOT BE A GOOD “PR” EXERCISE. THE SAME APPROACH WAS APPLIED BY ALL JDM CAR COMPANIES.
BTW, SKYLINE GT-R, SUPRA, 3000GT, FAIRLADY TURBO, STI, EVO, ALL HAVE HP/PS RATING OVER 280, MORE THAN ADVERTISED.
EVO MAGAZINE OF UK STATED THE NSX-R HAS “MORE THAN 300” HP; SIMILAR CLAIM ISSUED BY “TOP GEAR AND CAR” MAGAZINES.
Procar Stated the NSX-R motors they sell are rated at 330hp. I believe then umber is possible when applied with Type R ECU.
OneRedNSX and Da Hapa is telling the word those are my theory, but it’s not. All of them are published information, either by Honda, or countries that had access to the NSX-R.
Mr. Da Hapa claimed that if my theory were correct, Honda would have disclosed the additional HP so they can sell more cars. Here is the answer for you. Honda has limited the production to about 300 per year, about one per day. By allocating a very limited production area, the capability cannot overly exceed that number.
One interesting piece of information indicated by a Japanese article from two years ago, which indicated why the NSX was produced for 15 years. When the NSX was introduced in 1990, the projected production was 6000 per year for four years. Contracts were signed with outsourcing firms to supply parts to meet a “minimum” numbers. In a way, Honda had no choice but to keep the production going too meet that number. As indicated by Honda, production would have continued if “bureaucracy” didn’t kill the car.
Like suggested before, all you have to do is ask people to post Dyno numbers. You will find that most of the pre-mid 02 NSXs with RWP rating of 240-250-ish, and post mid-02 with RWP rating of 260 plus. The difference is about 20hp.
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There were several debates on the real 02+ stock hp #s on prime in the past. I am interested in the topic, but definitely nothing personal.
Here are some interesting pre-02 NA2 dyno#s. Unfortunately no 02+ were dynoed on the same dyno same day. Most of the 02+ NSX I have seen dynoed around 250~265+rwhp. Anything less than 250rwhp for 02 is almost unhead of. Can't say the same for pre-02, there are quite a few dynoed in low 240rwhp range.
http://ojas.net/nsx/NSteXpo2005/DynoReport.html
Some interesting comments for people who have own both pre02 NA2 and 02+, real world experience:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=248845&postcount=22
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=197832&postcount=10
02+ at Autowave, NSX with same year, same mods can still put down +/- 10~20rwhp difference on same dyno.
Here are some interesting pre-02 NA2 dyno#s. Unfortunately no 02+ were dynoed on the same dyno same day. Most of the 02+ NSX I have seen dynoed around 250~265+rwhp. Anything less than 250rwhp for 02 is almost unhead of. Can't say the same for pre-02, there are quite a few dynoed in low 240rwhp range.
http://ojas.net/nsx/NSteXpo2005/DynoReport.html
Some interesting comments for people who have own both pre02 NA2 and 02+, real world experience:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=248845&postcount=22
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=197832&postcount=10
02+ at Autowave, NSX with same year, same mods can still put down +/- 10~20rwhp difference on same dyno.
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- Joined
- 22 August 2006
- Messages
- 23
This thread is funny. De Hapa, I'm sorry, American Honda is only part of Honda's sales net work. Their press released is only a refletion of what Honda Japan want them to say.
Scorp92, yes, engine code extension is important. For example, 1991 to 1994 and 1995 - 96 NSX has different extension code (C30A...). 97 - 99 NSX and 2000 plus (C32B...) has different extention code due to LEV upgrade. Every time Honda upgrade the engine, the engine "block" code will not change, but they will add an extentions behind it.
OneRedNSX... After reading your posts, I didn’t find a single contribution to the discussion. Your argument is rather hollow. "YOU DIDN"T PROVE ANYTHING." I’m curious, apart from Vance poor English, everything was clearly explained. You keep on telling the world Honda Japan's information is irrelevant, why is that? I too read on Publication by Honda Japan, view Best Motoring video, and read Hyper Rev Magazines – All three NSX issues. Quite frankly, crashing the party is not going to help the debate. Hey, I like to crash parties too, because it is fun....:biggrin:
NSXSUPRA provided the dyno information; my apology to some of you guys, I have cited with Vance. Even though I’m not a NSX fan. His “detective” work is interesting but very reasonable.
Scorp92, yes, engine code extension is important. For example, 1991 to 1994 and 1995 - 96 NSX has different extension code (C30A...). 97 - 99 NSX and 2000 plus (C32B...) has different extention code due to LEV upgrade. Every time Honda upgrade the engine, the engine "block" code will not change, but they will add an extentions behind it.
OneRedNSX... After reading your posts, I didn’t find a single contribution to the discussion. Your argument is rather hollow. "YOU DIDN"T PROVE ANYTHING." I’m curious, apart from Vance poor English, everything was clearly explained. You keep on telling the world Honda Japan's information is irrelevant, why is that? I too read on Publication by Honda Japan, view Best Motoring video, and read Hyper Rev Magazines – All three NSX issues. Quite frankly, crashing the party is not going to help the debate. Hey, I like to crash parties too, because it is fun....:biggrin:
NSXSUPRA provided the dyno information; my apology to some of you guys, I have cited with Vance. Even though I’m not a NSX fan. His “detective” work is interesting but very reasonable.
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Vance doesn't the NA2 NSX-R have a higher redline than the "normal" NA2 NSX? If so would it need not the " blueprinting" for reliabilty. What about the NA1 NSX-R? I am just asking questions, not taking any sides as I have no inside knowledge on this issue.
Cheers,
AR
Cheers,
AR
Don’t worry; I'm not seeking support. If people can take my information and process them properly, they will find them informative.AR99NSX said:
Da Hapa and his buddy challenged the information I have provided, so I took my time to clarify this matter.
No the NSX-R redline is same as Standard NSX. I believe the fuel cut off for both is at 8200RPM.
There is deficiency in NSX engine tuning to begin with. That is why a simple aftermarket header replacement will see dramatic HP increase. The benefit is greater on NA1 than NA2. Therefore by theory, no RPM increase is needed to push the engine to 100hp/liter. Many Japanese NSX tuners will change bolt on parts to achieve that number. 300hp for NA1, 320 for NA2 are common in Japan.
RPM increase is obvious a crucial factor in B16/B18 Type R tuning. By increasing RPM from 8000 to 8500, with hand polished components, more free flow header, and blue print the engine, they can get around extra 10% in hp rating. Integra Type-R’s B18 rose from180 to 200ps.
That is actually a very remarkable achievement considering the fact that these numbers were achieved about 10 years before every one else. Closest car manufacture to achieve that type of numbers were BMW M3 (European spec) and Ferrari.
NA2 Type R said:
he has explained NOTHING. if you think he has go back and tell me where. All he has done is give us what basically amounts to as hearsay. Find me where he backed up his 'information' with a dyno, press release, video clip, magazine quote, or anything other than him just spouting out his theories (i call them that because he is YET to back them up with a reference he has listed). of course my 'argument' is 'hollow'. i don't have an argument. i have not posted in defence of either 'theory' but only for the persuit of correct information and not for the constant regurgitation of the same theories without any outside references being presented.
like I said in the other post, i really don't care which one of them is right or wrong, but information is only valid if it is correct and verified... so far, from what I can remember, only ONE side of the debate has posted any sort of off-site reference to back up their statements and the other side continues to assert the theory they subscribe to without backing it up.
Again, I couldn't care less who is right or wrong. I just want the correct and verified information, which, so far, has not been presented from both sides. In short, just post some material to back up your side already!
...deep ...breaths
John, where did you digged out all of your pictures? You always come up with these funny pcitures...scorp965 said:
...deep ...breaths
:biggrin:Sorry, coudn't resist....
scorp965 said:
...deep ...breaths
thanks for the translation; i thought you were saying don't smoke with a bag on your face
Please provide us with one "fact". Vance has claimed in another thread that the 2002+ 3.2L V6 is exactly the same in the non Type R as it is in the base NSX and that the 1997-2001 is different.evof575gtc said:
To date, I have not seen one fact proving this to be true.
I thought your point was that there wasn't any differences between the 02+ base NSX motor and the 02+ NSX-R motor.Vancehu said:
By the way, do you have a problem reading? I ask because the sentence that you've quoted above was nothing more than thanking Scorp for taking a moment to respond to the post.
And since I've already pointed out to you that the evidence that you provided as proof of your theory is contradictory to your theory, you'd think you'd be wary of casting stones on topics like this.
Excellent. Don't provide facts to substantiate your position. Instead, behave like a 4-year old and engage in what amounts to internet name calling.Vancehu said:Let's not hurt Da Hapa's feeling and stay with "his" subject:tongue: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Very mature.
Actually, that wasn't my argument at all. Never was. For the record, let me quote you from the other thread when I asked you what made you think the 02+ NSX motor was different from the 1997 - 2001 engine and exactly the same as the one in the NA2 NSX-RVancehu said:
You typed:
"Because May of 02 is when they introduced the NA2 Type R. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason for them to treat the engines any different during the hand assembly, since only about fifty or so Type Rs were sold each year. They don't need to do any thing different material wise, all they have to do is hand polish the component, make them smoother, like all the Type R engine treatments, you will get more HP. The theory of DOHC VTEC is simple, 100hp per liter. The reason the NSX is detuned to begin with is due to the lame JDM 280hp limitation.
If you have driven any NSX that is from late 02 and up, you will know it has more HP. I have driven two 04, three 05, and my 03, they all feel faster in stock form than the 97-99 NSX's I have driven."
Those are your words.
And you offered as evidence to your theory an article that Honda posted on the web. At your suggestion, I read that article and pointed to sections (quoted above) that suggest that the NA2 NSX-R motor was pulled from the normal NSX production line and was crafted to a higher standard including tighter tolerances. And then you blasted me for that.
Some additional level of effort went into the NA2 NSX Type R engine, which would not be applicable for a standard US Spec C32B of any year. Although, as with most production car manufactuers I do not doubt that improvements in manufacturing and process over the years would have resulted in elect undocumented improvements over time in the final years anyway.
To the best of my knowledge, the significant differences for the '02 NA2 Type R engines were precision balancing of pistons and connecting rods between each cylinder, precision dynamic balancing of the crankshaft, clutch case and pulley assembly, and the bearing metal was measured and matched for more precise metal clearances and reduced friction.
I don't recall any official text stating specifically from Honda what was done to any level of relevant build detail (specs, grams, parts #'s, etc... past the standard press releases) but I do recall one of the BMI drivers claiming their to be far more of a noticable difference in engine response when driving a C32B standard vs. NA2 Type R version relative to say an the Integra GSR vs. B18C5.
As a general rule, a B&B engine will feel better, have smoother operation, have less stress on the bearings due to lower friction and harmonic losses, and may have measurably more power and a longer life span than a comparable unit on the same assembly line during in-house factory testing.
It is frankly a real shame that the NA2 NSXR never made it here for sale in the US.
To the best of my knowledge, the significant differences for the '02 NA2 Type R engines were precision balancing of pistons and connecting rods between each cylinder, precision dynamic balancing of the crankshaft, clutch case and pulley assembly, and the bearing metal was measured and matched for more precise metal clearances and reduced friction.
I don't recall any official text stating specifically from Honda what was done to any level of relevant build detail (specs, grams, parts #'s, etc... past the standard press releases) but I do recall one of the BMI drivers claiming their to be far more of a noticable difference in engine response when driving a C32B standard vs. NA2 Type R version relative to say an the Integra GSR vs. B18C5.
As a general rule, a B&B engine will feel better, have smoother operation, have less stress on the bearings due to lower friction and harmonic losses, and may have measurably more power and a longer life span than a comparable unit on the same assembly line during in-house factory testing.
It is frankly a real shame that the NA2 NSXR never made it here for sale in the US.
The components (block, pistons, cams, rods, etc.) are identical in all 3.2L engines (standard and NSX-R models). Nothing other than balancing and journal matching appears to be different and the same balancing can be performed on a standard engine.
Cheers,
-- Chris
Cheers,
-- Chris
Ski_Banker
Suspended
Chris@SoS said:
Yeah, but can you prove it??? Have you actually picked apart an NSX engine or are you just speculating? Amateurs.... :biggrin:
j/k
so if all 3.2 are the same.. then could someone explain why the type-r for sale from Procar Special thread post #234 has more hp???
(Full thread)
(Full thread)
Procar Specials said:we got another R engine, its a real beauty with 330 Honda R&D tuned horses
amgnsx said:so if all 3.2 are the same.. then could someone explain why the type-r for sale from Procar Special thread post #234 has more hp???
(Full thread)
Can you say "can of worms"?
I find it hard to believe the NSX-R engine ran the same smog junk, exhaust & ECU set up as a US spec NSX. Not to mention being ballanced and blueprinted. For the record, I dont know beans about the R model's engines.
:biggrin:
:biggrin:
i wouldnt say either engine has more hp or not. only dyno'ing two brand new 3.2L engines would really tell you.
but i could see how a 02-05 nsx would feel faster then a 97-01. chassis tuning could make a car feel faster. weren't the spring rates, sway bar rates, wheels, lighter front end... changed?
but i could see how a 02-05 nsx would feel faster then a 97-01. chassis tuning could make a car feel faster. weren't the spring rates, sway bar rates, wheels, lighter front end... changed?
