Is MacMini the 1step for a turnaround?

[Motegi]

I am a longtime Mac user and presently have 2 PowerMacs and 1 iBook sitting on my desk. I have a degree in CompSci and while the bulk of my programming was done on unix workstations I have always chosen Macs over WintelPCs for personal use.

I think the Mac Mini could be a successful machine for Apple only if they market/advertise it aggressively. Apple really needs to start back with the TV ads for their computers. Show people how easy it is to add peripherals and point out how the MacOS has been relatively free from viruses and spyware. I honestly cannot recall the last time I saw a television ad from Apple that wasn't solely for the iPod. Perhaps it would be wise to combine an iPod ad with a MacMini ad initially. Even better offer an introductory bundled package deal!!! Throw in some iTunes Music Store credits!!!

Lets face it, most computer shoppers these days swing out to their local BestBuy or CircuitCity and pick up whatever deal of the day they might find (free printer/scanner/copier, monitor bundle) or whatever Wintel box the salesperson guides them toward. While these stores now carry iPods they no longer have any Macs. CompUsa has an Apple Mac section in every store but it's usually segregated to a low traffic corner where only the Mac geeks congregate and even so it's often desolate. Apple's own stores have been cropping up but are limited to big cities and even then usually only one or two in ritzy upper-class locations. Most of those BBuy and CCity repeat Wintel buyers probably won't go out of their way to seek out an AppleStore and therefore won't get a chance to try a MacMini out. Surely, there is an advantage to be able to do a direct side by side comparison.

For these reasons I think Apple needs to make a push to get back onto the showroom floor of BBuy and CCity. Have them put up a display with MacMinis and entry level iBooks right alongside all the iPods. Have the Macs connected to broadband internet for people use and have them playing DVDs and running iTunes. In these stores I think the MacMini SHOULD be shown with cheap 3rd party monitors and peripherals (keyboards, mice, printers) rather than Apple displays and keyboards since most of the buying public doesn't realize that Macs are compatible with many PC peripherals. Show the Macs with digital cameras and camcorders like they do at the AppleStores. I think it would be a big mistake to only display the MacMini with Apple brand monitors and peripherals since they tend to be quite the bit pricier than the mainstream PC peripherals, would raise the apparent total price, and would once again scare naive buyers away.

In speaking to non-techie friends who are Wintel users many of them don't know that you can get Microsoft Office/Explorer and Adobe Photoshop on the Mac. Most are stuck one one of three common but erroneous complaints: there is no software available for the Mac, Macs are too expensive, they aren't compatible with my job/work. It is inconceivable how, many of them, regardless of how horrible their Wintel experience has been with crashes, freezes, viruses, and spyware, keep going back to Wintel because they don't think of the Mac as being a legitimate option.

I really hope Apple is able to regain some market share with the MacMini. However, 90% of mainstream computer buyers have probably never seen nor used a Mac and unless Apple can get the MacMinis out to where these people can see and use them I just don't think the MacMini will make a meaningful impact. Just my 2 cents.

 

[dawggpie]

Montegi, u're forgetting about Dell. I'm pretty sure Dell sells a lot more PCs to home buyers than HP, Sony and other BBuy and CC sold PCs. A bigger presence in these stores will help, but I think advertising similar to what they do for the iPods would be more beneficial, ie. TV ads and billboards. A agree with the gripes you listed that PC buyers have with Macs. It's going to take some time for Apple to eliminate those ideas. Apple will probably capture some more market share with the Mini which I think makes it a success even if it doesn't revolutionize the personal computing landscape.

 

[nsxtasy]

Montegi, u're forgetting about Dell. I'm pretty sure Dell sells a lot more PCs to home buyers than HP, Sony and other BBuy and CC sold PCs.

I really wonder how the consumer PC market breaks down in terms of where they're purchased...

- internet purchases

- big box electronics stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc)

- computer stores (CompUSA)

- other stores (Sears, Target, Costco, Sam's Club, Office Max, Office Depot) - for example, I believe Costco has a deal with Dell whereby you can buy your Dell computer through Costco

Each channel demands its own unique marketing strategy, I would think...

 

[PHOEN$X]

I tried the Mac a few times, and each time I went back to my PC. One of the things that bugged me was the single button mouse. I am so used to having two buttons, and also I could not live without the indispensable scroll (now with tilt) wheel.

 

[NeoNSX]

Oh no... not again....

*yawn*yawn*yawn* .... another debate on will Linux/Mac defeat Windows... the answer is always the same: no. Let's face the facts: Bill ownz us all.

1% of the desktop market is NOT a marketshare; it's a minority.


This MacMini is nothing new... it's a rehashed computer that will compete with Windows Media Center. And it suffers all the same problems as all-in-one solutions have in the past: limited upgradability, expensive repairs (because everything is on the one mainboard), limited capacity & functionality, etc., etc.. The only pro this MacMini has making a Mac more affordable because they are $$$$$$$.... so this won't benefit power users.

And as for Mac's being better than Windows... it's like arguing that an NSX is better to a Ferrari owner. Mac's claim to be better at digital video/photo editing and multimedia, but eventually Windows catches up. Likewise the PC has come out with innovations that the Mac has adopted. There's nothing a Mac can do that a PC cannot. <B>So both PC's and Mac's have end up being the same as each other!</B> We are all e-brothers.


I'm not anti-Mac, but for people who like Mac's... don't try to convert Windows users, and Windows users try not to pee off Mac-lovers. But really, there are far more important things we can be debating here, such as:

1) The return of the reputation point system,
2) Lifespan of timing belts,
3) What is the Best Wax?
4) Why the Iraqi war was right/wrong
5) Whether betting your pink-slip online is right/wrong
6) Who has bigger penises: Windows or Mac users
7) Will Jimbo give up his iPod?
8) Whether Honda will or will not make the HSC
9) NSX-R suspension.

Bottomline is ALL COMPUTER SUCK. I've said my peace.

 

[NeoNSX]

I tried the Mac a few times, and each time I went back to my PC. One of the things that bugged me was the single button mouse. I am so used to having two buttons, and also I could not live without the indispensable scroll (now with tilt) wheel.

Kelvin's back! Hurrah!

An old mac vs. PC joke when Apple prevented Mac-clones from being sold:

Q. Why do Mac's have one button?
A. No decision making required.


ok ok... u have to be a nerd to get that.

 

[PHOEN$X]

I'm sorta back... They decided at the last minute to take away our holiday weekend and give us do a $hitload of work instead, so I've been in front of the computer since Friday except for taking a few hours to sleep. :frown:

I came across this site yesterday, I'm hoping Apple will become a leader in environmental responsibility as well as in design:

http://www.badapple.biz

 

[PHOEN$X]

Q. Why do Mac's have one button?
A. No decision making required.

ok ok... u have to be a nerd to get that.

LOL. Guess I'm a big nerd!

 

[NSX-Racer]

One of the things that bugged me was the single button mouse. I am so used to having two buttons, and also I could not live without the indispensable scroll (now with tilt) wheel.

Stories from yesterday - you can use nearly any mouse with the newer macs (also with two buttons, I even got one with a scroll button in the middle from Logitech, such as this one ).

 

[Arshad]

Yeah pretty much whatever you can plug into your PC, you can plug into your Mac. I prefer the logitech bluetooth mouse. The OS fully supports multiple buttons, scrollwheels etc. Plug and play. Similarly, you can plug in any of those USB gamepads etc.

Neo: I don't think anyone is saying that this mini is going to change the world, because it's clearly not. What it might do however is get SOME people to try a Mac who might otherwise have not. Even if the machine were a runaway success and sold millions a year, it still would not drastically change the Mac's overall marketshare. We need a paradigm shift in how people use their computers before Wintel will lose its monopoly.

 

[NeoNSX]

<B>Arshad</B>: You're absolutely right: a paradigm shift + a small miracle.

I personally think it's too late for Apple to make any kind of comeback. If you screw up at the start the industry is unforgiving. Look at VHS vs beta... beta came out first, but VHS was cheaper and eventually pushed beta into insignificance. The same thing happened with Apple: they should have allowed Apple's to be cloned so that prices would drop and be competitive against IBM-PC clones.

So for all the quality & innovations that Mac's have brought to the Computing world, there's no 2nd chances. Which is too bad.... Microsoft needs some serious competition at the moment.

 

[NSXrebel]

so did anybody get one of these yet?

 

[Arshad]

Well, we have had a few of these at the office for a few months now, but that's only because our group was part of the design team heh

Note that Apple has also quietly slashed some of the outrageous upgrade pricing for the RAM, HD, Bluetooth etc.

They're having a hard time keeping up with the demand on these puppies.

 

[nsxtasy]

Well, we have had a few of these at the office for a few months now, but that's only because our group was part of the design team

Just a suggestion... if you are associated with a product under discussion, it's only fair to disclose this when you first post to the topic. Not only would this disclosure help others understand that your comments about the product might not be totally unbiased, but they might also realize your presumably high level of expertise in the technology, and view your posts within that context.

It's just like a discussion comparing the NSX with, say, a Porsche 911. If someone were a designer for Porsche, or the owner of a Porsche dealer, I would expect them to mention it when they begin to participate in the discussion.

 

[NeoNSX]

I thought <B>Arshad</B> worked for ATI?

 

[NSXrebel]

I thought I was the only one up this late

 

[NSX-Racer]

Just a suggestion... if you are associated with a product under discussion, it's only fair to disclose this when you first post to the topic.

Ken, of course you're right, but you shouldn't blame Arshad for not doing this. This is an excerpt from his 1st post in this thread:
Wintel machines are far too ingrained for this to have any significant impact, but I think it's going to be a hot seller nonetheless (at least I hope so, since our graphic chip is in there ;-))

I assume this to be enough information for others, don't you?

 

[Arshad]

Duly noted Ken. I should have been more explicit in my first post, although I did mention it in passing as noted above. I also thought most people knew since I've mentioned it several times in other threads, and since it's also noted in my public profile. Clearly a bad assumption -- I'll be more careful in the future.

In any case, my posts were less about this specific product, and more about the user-experience of using a Mac vs a Wintel machine. The only reason the MacMini becomes interesting in this context is that it's finally a machine that's semi-affordable relative to PC's.

 

[nsxtasy]

I assume this to be enough information for others, don't you?

Sorry, I missed that.

In any case, my posts were less about this specific product, and more about the user-experience of using a Mac vs a Wintel machine.

Comments that I thought were interesting and provided an insightful perspective!

 

[paladin]

<B>Arshad</B>: You're absolutely right: a paradigm shift + a small miracle.

Agree++

I'm also a CSCI major, and a lifetime Win user. I wont switch because i still enjoy playing pc games (and not waiting for a mac release).

I dont know if the arguement about no viruses and spyware is valid.
Its not as if Apple as gone to great lengths to pursue them, its just a bi-product of their miniscule market presence. If macs were 50% of the market, they'd certainly get the attention of virus writers, hackers, spyware companies, etc.

However, i'd cross the line for whoever makes a complete media solution. If i could have a shuttle sit in my entertainment center of my living room and handle dvr, music, movies, etc, and just hook it to my tv, i would buy from anyone. Nobody has that yet, but the Mini is a step in the right direction. An affordable Mac is the first step towards getting somewhere for them, but they wont get their any time soon.

p.s. whatever advantages they gained with osx (finally a good mac os) might be negated with the Longhorn release in a few years. I'm hearing good things about that one.

 

[Arshad]

Agreed about gaming. Unless the Mac can miraculously increase the number of units out in the field by 50-fold, large game developers won't take it seriously. It's simply not economically viable given the high costs associated with modern game production.

As far as argument about spyware+viruses -- I think it is valid. First of all, the Mac is not going to get 50% marketshare, so it's never going to attract the same level of attention. Secondly, I don't buy the argument that it's only about the miniscule market. Look at the Amiga in the 80's and 90's for example. The total number of Amiga's ever produced is but a fraction of the number of Mac's out there today yet it had viruses galore. The bottom line was that it was a joke to write one, just like it is on the PC today. I'm not saying that it's impossible to write a virus or malware for the Mac. It's clearly possible -- it's just not being done to any extent.

And let's face it, one of the biggest complaints of every novice user that I see is they're frustrated at the user-experience. Most of these users (who by the way comprise the vast majority of that market base) have no desire or idea of running virus checkers and setting up firewalls and installing spyware/malware checkers or cleaning out their registry and constantly downloading new security patches etc. They don't understand why their brand spanking new machine is getting progressively slower at accessing the internet. Or why when their machine gets hosed, the typical answer is "ok just reinstall windows and start fresh".

Even if someone comes in and helps set that all up for them, it's still a pain in the ass to do simple things like setting up a LAN etc. It's no longer an advanced nerdy thing to do. People have multiple machines in their homes and want simple connectivity between them. Whether it's setting up file shares or setting up a webserver or whatever. That windows networking control panel is useless!

I could go on and on about how OSX does things better/more intuitively than XP. Is OSX perfect? Far from it! It has plenty of things that it can learn from XP as well, but for most novice users, I think the overall usability and experience of the system is better on a Mac. For advanced users, it just depends on what you're used to so it doesn't matter.

As far as longhorn goes though, I wouldn't hold your breath. They're largely playing catch-up to what Apple has today and what they're planning to release well before Longhorn ever sees the light of day. You don't even have to look at any NDA-based information to see that. MS has published plenty of details on longhorn publically and most of these core OS improvements are already in place today on OSX.

 

[paladin]

I would disagree about the networking for pc's. IT might be a bit more complicated than Mac OS, but its been consistent. I worked tech support for an isp, and when a Mac user would call with a problem it was always difficult because often times the icons and menus wouldnt be the same from each iteration. Windows networking is very similar, from 98 to XP. I can count on certain stuff being there.

Does OSX have security holes as bad as Windows? Honestly i dont know, and I wouldnt know how to guess. My guess is that most security experts (hackers) havent put a whole lot of thought into how to break into a completely different system like Mac. It may be there, its just nobody cares enough to look :biggrin:
I do like the new iBooks though. its all i've wanted in a laptop, with the exception that i cant get it with x86 architecture (windows) :biggrin:

 

[Arshad]

when a Mac user would call with a problem it was always difficult because often times the icons and menus wouldnt be the same from each iteration.


This was true in the pre-OSX days when Apple kept changing around their control panels from one revision to the next. Since the inception of OSX, it's been consistent.


My guess is that most security experts (hackers) havent put a whole lot of thought into how to break into a completely different system like Mac. It may be there, its just nobody cares enough to look


Actually, people have been hacking Unix systems (which is essentially what OSX is) since before Windows was a twinkle in Bill's eye :biggrin: Most 'real' hackers spend more time breaking into corporate/military networks set up on Unix/VMS/CMS, etc and have been for the past 30 years.

The difference is that unlike older Unix machines which were typically set up with all kinds of default accounts, and ports and remote services left wide open, Apple has done a pretty good job of keeping the system fairly secure out of the box. For example, there is no root account enabled by default. You can enable it if you're hardcore, but if you decide to leave it without a password or an easy to guess password, then you're leaving yourself wide open to an attack.

 

[PHOEN$X]

Apple has done a pretty good job of keeping the system fairly secure out of the box.

True, it seems that Apple hasn't left everything wide open on the off chance that the end user might need something, as Microsoft has done up until XP SP2.

I am noticing more stories lately about flaws in OS X, though. For example:

http://news.com.com/Apple+releases+patch+for+Mac+OS+X/2100-1002_3-5550527.html?tag=cd.top

Here's an interesting story about how one company found vulnerabilities in OS X but kept the information to themselves for 7 months before notifying Apple:

http://news.com.com/Flaw+finders+go+their+own+way/2100-1002_3-5550430.html?tag=cd.top

Both Apple and M$ need to do a better job of QA testing before releasing their products. With M$ you have a larger "beta" tester (end user) pool, so flaws are found more quickly (and taken advantage of ).

Back to the question of whether Apple can break the dominance of Windows in the OS market? I don't think so at this time. With Windows, you have both hardware and software vendors supporting the market with products. With the Apple platform, most hardware manufactures are simply locked out of the game, so they will continue to push M$ instead.

IMO, in order for Apple to compete on a level playing field with M$, they need to allow other vendors to start producing, and selling, OS X compatible PCs.

 

[Motegi]

As mentioned in my prior post as what I felt would be a necessary step toward increasing Apple's Mac marketshare it seems as if Apple is making inroads to getting the Mac Mini into mass market retailers.

Just today it was announced that the Mac Mini will be hitting the showroom floors at Best Buys across the country. Also Target.com had been selling the Mac Mini (for 10% off!!) since the introduction and only recently took it down because of the long wait times for inventory. I speculate that as the initial production is scaled up more and more retailers (those already selling the iPod) will start carrying the Mini. I hope to get to my local Apple Store this weekend to check the Mini out in person.