Intercooler for BBSC
- Thread starter ALIENT
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ALIENT said:
ALient-
That red NSX setup photo is of a friend of mine's car in Charleston... who is also a friend of Romeo... who is a friend of mine. Make sense? Everyone is connected like in a Kevin Bacon game. :wink:
The setups do look similar because they were put together by the same person. The same concept has been employed by some turbo kit fabricators like Gerry Johnson. You should be able to find pictures of his setup at his website, which I believe is www.pansx.com .
In essence you just need the hardware and then a good fabricator to tie all the pieces together and produce brakets to effectively mount the stuff.
Sig said:
Thanks Sig,
I knew there were others! :biggrin: Yeah I know they aren't identical to Romeo's but the similiarities suggested that they were built by the same person.
I've been following Gerry's set up for a while now.. I am big fan of his and love his setup. His intercooler setup is very nice. But it won't work for a Basch with the intake and 'out'put on the same side. But yes, the concept of the heatexchanger location is the same.
Do you have any way to contact this "same person" who built the IC setup.. ? He seems like a good fabricator, who has done it before.
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01blacks4 said:
I hardly think it is the worst. As a matter of fact, for an air-air, I think it is one of the best places (assuming there is air directed onto the intercooler via a vented hatch, and fans for even better effect) than tucked under the car, and even worse, in the case shown by Elite, hidden behind a rear diffuser. How much air is flowing thru that IC system? I have my air-air under the rear of the car, just in front of a 02' rear valence, with NO rear diffuser. I had a scoop welded to the bottom of the IC, and still don't get enough heat transfer. Gerry has posted (03.31.2004) that under long boost loads of 15-17 psi he has an IAT of 104 F with an ambient in the 80's. Assuming worst case that is a delta of 24 F. Assuming a linear plot, on a 100 F day, IAT = 124 F. I would take that all day long.
All that being said, I don't care much for the look of the IC in plain sight under the hatch. I am working on a design to replace my IC system with an air-liquid for maximum effiency.
One last point, Porsche run their dual intercoolers on top of the engine, of course with air directed over them through the tail. (yeah I keep saying intercooler, don't mean to offend the person that insists on correcting everyone by calling it an aftercooler, but most of the industry calls it an IC, including Spearco ..... when in Rome....) Are you implying that Porsche has been repeating this poor design for over 20 years?
In the case of the Porsche... there is engineering involved in getting air to the intercoolers. In the case of our cars there was never any intention of airflow going into the engine bay via the window. And the diffuser does not hide/block the airflow, it directs the airflow. We also added a lip on the front side of it that directs a large amount of air up to the intercooler. Kevin can chime in on that point with his own experiences. This year his car will have an AEM, and we can let everyone know what the intake air temps are. Basing it off an intake air temp. sensor placed in the intercooler piping, and not the stock/non responsive unit that is heat soaked by the intake manifold.
Elite said:
I think everyone would agree with your first obvious point, Honda never had any intention of directing air because there was no IC. This is the whole purpose for a new hatch, so it does bring air down over the IC. Does it do it with the efficacy of Porsche? I would assume, no. Does it provide better airflow (more Q (volume flow rate) and cooler ambient temps) than under the car? I would have to say yes. I am in a similar situation as you, I currently have mine under the bottom with an air scoop to direct more air through the IC. I can tell you first hand experience - it doesn't provide enough heat transfer of the charged air. I already have an AEM, but I don't need it to tell me that I am loosing power. The AEM tries to dump more fuel, cuts back timing, and/or turns down the boost pressure, all of which reduce power, which is not what I want. I want consistent power even on hot days, running for more than 1/2 hour, at high levels of boost. The AEM isn't going to tell you anything the current sensor in the manifold won't tell you. The AEM is just a great interface and has a nice GUI.
Elite said:
You are contradicting yourself. I agree with the second part of your sentence, it does direct the airflow, but not up into the back of the car. By adding a lip on the leading edge and direct a large amount of air (which sounds very subjective) to the IC, you have defied the prime reason of the rear air diffuser. The purpose of the air diffuser is to reduce lift forces, and try to keep the Reynolds number low; therefore, keeping the flow laminar.
Elite said:
While it is good to know what the temp delta is directly after the IC (IC efficiency), ultimately we need to know what the air just before it enters the combustion chamber. This is a more real world value. While you are on boost the flow is fast enough not to absorb as much heat given off from the intake/engine. Let me be clear, I am not saying the intake manifold temperature will not increase your charged air. This would be a good test, to test the air before intake and while in intake at low flow and high flow to see what the delta is.
What is the response time of the stock sensor? I would assume it would be giving you output in the milliseconds.
Regardless of the efficiency issue I assure you from first hand experience that having an IC above the engine raises the CG enough to notice on the track (in a negative way). It also gets pretty scary as it obstructs rear view. Not a desirable situation under any circumstances. Try putting contact paper on your rear glass and drive around before you decide. Just some thoughts.
Yes, but obtaining an accurate value would be the issue. If the reading is flawed from the sensor reading something more than just the air inside the manifold, its value is less meaning. Sorry, but I didn't have enough time with my car the thoroughly test it, but I suspect that there is an issue with the stock sensor reading heat from something more than just the air inside the manifold. I assume it was partially reading the heat soaked (at times) manifold itself.seandouble said:
Good points Mark. My explanations above were speaking primary to efficacy, mainly to the statement someone made, "its still the worst place for an IC....."
I think we all know the best solution, taking into account efficacy, maximizing vision in rear, best CG, would be liquid-air IC. The main problem with this type of cooling, being cost.
ALIENT, as a lower cost than liquid-air, have you looked into alcohol injection in conjunction with air-air IC? I haven't done much research in this area, but it will keep your rear view unobstructed, keep low CG, and can get high delta T #s. I have heard negative effects due to condensation in the combustion chamber. Maybe Mark or someone else has had some real world experience with this system.
Is the AIT sensor in the intake isolated from the intake manifold? What technology does the sensor use? RTD, contact, IR?
I think we all know the best solution, taking into account efficacy, maximizing vision in rear, best CG, would be liquid-air IC. The main problem with this type of cooling, being cost.
ALIENT, as a lower cost than liquid-air, have you looked into alcohol injection in conjunction with air-air IC? I haven't done much research in this area, but it will keep your rear view unobstructed, keep low CG, and can get high delta T #s. I have heard negative effects due to condensation in the combustion chamber. Maybe Mark or someone else has had some real world experience with this system.
If the sensor is flawed, I would attack the root of the problem, not try to band-aid the problem.KGP said:
Is the AIT sensor in the intake isolated from the intake manifold? What technology does the sensor use? RTD, contact, IR?
I dunno, maybe SSBB?seandouble said:
Shity Shity Bang Bang technology
(Not in reference to the split sec box) :smile:I thought the temp sensors were temperature compensated. Yes? No? If not, could this be implemented to help correct the TRUE temp value? Mark have you done any studies to calculate the IAT just before intake manifold and just before the combustion chamber, using a reference calibrated temperature compensated sensor? This would be interesting to see how much heat is absorbed during the length of the runners/ports. A graph showing flow vs. heat absorption.
What exactly are you referencing then?KGP said:I dunno, maybe SSBB?
Shity Shity Bang Bang technology
Armando
I am not too versed in the techinical aspects of FI, but what you describe as a problem only becomes a problem if you cut corners. The more safegaurds in place the less headaches , but as some will atest to on here, Murphys Law is even more prevelant as the boost levels go up.seandouble said:
Armando
An aftermarket sensor absolutely gives you/the AEM different info than the stock sensor in the intake manifold does. The stock sensor in the intake manifold is prone to heat soaking(on the NSX and most other Honda's). And give you/AEM false temp. #'s. It is telling you the current temp of the aluminum intake manifold and does not correct fast enough for the FI air passing by. Or to clarify that statement a little bit. No matter what it is telling you, it is higher than what the air temps are in actuality, because the sensor is being heated up by the intake manifold. It is very common for people trying to do it the correct way to ad a sensor in their intercooler piping to get a accurate idea of what their intake air temps are. And for their specific standalone to correct based on the actual #'s.
The diffuser looks good, that is why it is on this car
.
Getting the temps of the air just before entering the cylinders would be great. But in the real world its not likely. So the best(not cutting corners solution) is a proper intake air temp. sensor closest to the throttle body. Setting it there will give you an idea of what the temps are going into the intake manifold. There just isn't a good way to mount/place a sensor in the intake manifold that will not be affected the temp. readings.
The diffuser looks good, that is why it is on this car
.Getting the temps of the air just before entering the cylinders would be great. But in the real world its not likely. So the best(not cutting corners solution) is a proper intake air temp. sensor closest to the throttle body. Setting it there will give you an idea of what the temps are going into the intake manifold. There just isn't a good way to mount/place a sensor in the intake manifold that will not be affected the temp. readings.
seandouble said:
i still sy it is the worst place. the scoop and hatch do not work, and anytime the engine gets warm all that hot air is RISING up into the IC, while the small little scoop is tring to push it out.
I dont thing your IC placement is wrong sean, i think it may the size of your IC. this is really a small science that most people do not give enough attention to. If you are having heatsoak (which i think is unlikley, heating the IC sure but heatsoak is BIG) after just a 1/2 hour that i would say you have an issue with A) the size of the IC (FWIW lots of small short runners is better that fewer long runners) or B) you need to work on the plumbing side of the IC aluminum is bad (i do use it too though) big bends are bad, sharp angles VERY BAD. etc,etc.
The example of elites is not buried behind a muffle either, they are on the side, two big shiny cans....GJ has buried it behind the muffle in the past, he has also moved it up top....which to be fair does have some advantages...just not enough to move it there.
as always this is just my opinion, i do hower live in phoenix which is WAY hotter that FLA and have 3 cars with 5 turbos sitting in the garage. Intercooling is a HUGE issue here.
And i did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night so I am qualified
I dont thing your IC placement is wrong sean, i think it may the size of your IC. this is really a small science that most people do not give enough attention to. If you are having heatsoak (which i think is unlikley, heating the IC sure but heatsoak is BIG) after just a 1/2 hour that i would say you have an issue with A) the size of the IC (FWIW lots of small short runners is better that fewer long runners) or B) you need to work on the plumbing side of the IC aluminum is bad (i do use it too though) big bends are bad, sharp angles VERY BAD. etc,etc.
The example of elites is not buried behind a muffle either, they are on the side, two big shiny cans....GJ has buried it behind the muffle in the past, he has also moved it up top....which to be fair does have some advantages...just not enough to move it there.
as always this is just my opinion, i do hower live in phoenix which is WAY hotter that FLA and have 3 cars with 5 turbos sitting in the garage. Intercooling is a HUGE issue here.
And i did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night so I am qualified
Nothing specific. It's just that technology within the NSX FI world and motors blown to smithereens happens to still be on my mind a bit. I'm mending though. :smile:MiamieNeSeX said:
Not sure if this is a very controlled study, but my autonomous IAT sensor always seems to read about 50 degrees F lower than my stock IAT sensor as logged by my AEM. My gauge sensor is mounted just before the main manifold in my fabricated intake. For example, at Thunder Hill it was about 95 F ambient (air at the track surface was probably 105+) and my IATs after 20 minutes read about 140 to 150 F on my gauge but my log showed temps from 190 to 200F. Does anyone have a log of on the track IATs using the stock sensor and non-FI application? That would be a good data point. A good thing about an air-to-water IC is that you don't get big swings in temps as the IC is a great heat sink. When IAT are above the water temp (on boost) heat transfers from the air to the water. When IAT are below the water temp (off boost) heat transfers from the water to the intake air. Once a state of quasi equilibrium is reached the IATs stay relatively stable, although probably higher than an air-to-air (assuming a steady and voluminous supply of air through the air-to-air). Although I have not experimented with air-to-air yet, I would expect some large swings in IATs, particularly in the lower gears when air speed is low. Possibly to the extent that short term peak temps would exceed my "technically" less efficient air-to-water system. Steady state at 100 mph there's no question that the air-to-air is more efficient. Things get a bit more complicated when talking road track application. I’m very suspicious of anyone claiming they never see IATs 20 or 30 degrees F over ambient with their air-to-air under ANY and ALL conditions unless some form of forced air is used.
Elite said:
I understand the problem of insulating the sensor from the intake, to insure it doesn't give a higher temp. than the air it is trying to measure. Even though the intake is affecting the reading, the sensor is not giving you your intake temperature, as you have stated above. How do you know it is giving you false readings if you don't have a reference temp gauge? Do you know what technology sensor is being used? Anyone? If there is temperature compensation, it has two thermistors, one to measure the air, one to measure the intake. There is an algorithm that defines what the actual air temp is.
Do you know what the IAT just before intake manifold vs. just before the combustion chamber? What is that delta? Do you compensate for that in your EMS?
I would be interested to see your IAT vs. ambient after an hour on a hot day, with a decent amount of boost. Please post results once you get the AEM. Of for that matter, place a calibrated sensor in the air stream and just watch throughout the drive
The key is your last sentence. If you place a sensor pre-intake, how much will the air increase before it reaches the combustion chamber? I would rather the sensor read an IAT a little hotter than colder! I don't want a "SSBB".Elite said:
KGP, did something happen to your FX500? Is that rod pic in your avatar recent?
I agree the more monitor processes and control process the safer. I don't think it is Murphy, it is just physics. If you are not tuned properly i.e., not enough fuel, too much timing, IAT too high, then it will detonate, and then it is over. Monitor and Control.MiamieNeSeX said:
01blacks4 said:
How can you say the scoop and hatch don't work, when I just referenced numbers as showing it does. Gerry's system has a scoop and fans, so the positive pressure keeps the heat coming off the engine from pushing up.
seandouble said:
No, I haven't even heard of this. But I will poke around on Google. Any info you have would be appreciated!
One of the things that attracts me to the air to air IC like Romeo's is that fact that there is no need for a water pump, resevoir, extra water weight.. etc.. The Alcohol injection sounds complicated..
I was a bit concerned with the rear view mode and decided that a rear view camera (ala JGTC) would help with that issue.
seandouble said:How do you know it is giving you false readings if you don't have a reference temp gauge?
Do you know what the IAT just before intake manifold vs. just before the combustion chamber?
Because all we do everyday is tune and build FI vehicles, 99 percent of which are turbo's. And one of the first things we do is in the case of any Honda is add a intake air temp. sensor pre TB. Same goes for most every other car we work on, but the stock Honda sensors are futhur off than most. And I think you are overthinking how much the intake manifold is going to heat up the air. It is not that simple to heat up or cool down air THAT quickly. If it was we would have figured out a way to cool everything down very quickly and we wouldn't be having this discussion
The key is your last sentence. If you place a sensor pre-intake, how much will the air increase before it reaches the combustion chamber?
Answered above.
ALIENT said:Alright, if that is the case, does anyone have any idea what the part number for the heat exchanger is? I tried Googling Spearco and can't find any cores like that. Actually I can't even find Spearco's site.
After some more searching I found another one.
It looks like the end pieces are too common to be very custom. Even the weld points on the piping on Initial D's and the one below are identical.
Just as Sig and 92nsx have pointed out. This is my car. They are only two of these setups. A third was on the way for another BBSC but I don't think he started the process as of yet.
For the guys who speculate on how much viewing is loss due to the intercooler/scoop setup....alot BUT and and big BUT ..it is not so bad that I cannot see out the rear glass. The intercooler on my car was low enough that I barely saw it from the rear glass. The blind spot was created from the GruppeM scoop. NOT THE INTERCOOLER. Rom has placed his about an inch higher to get it off the engine as did I but, as you see in the photos, he added a shroud to his. I still could just see it from inside the car w/o the shroud. I have since sold the kit to the white NSX Intial D. I did enjoy the in your face setup. I do still have the GruppeM hatch and the blind spot is still there. :biggrin:
Heat from the engine was going to managed with fans triggered to run from the TEC3.
I have gone to a Comptech unit now and have the engine air intake using the same Scoop in the very near future
Elite said:
I understand that the air doesn't have much time to absorb the heat given off by the intake, especially during high flow. And since flow is a square function, the heat absorption in exponential diminished.
Over thinking, quite possibly. I don't like to make assumptions. I have a hard time providing an answer, unless I understand the physics behind it. I feel better by mathematically calculating the answer, if possible, and then running a test to prove the calculation. Once you have run a valid test, then there is nothing left to guess, you have PROOF.
I think I have beaten the dead horse, but I hope ALIENT understands the limitations with air-air IC.
Elite, please post some ambient air temps vs. IAT (pre-intake) after 1/2hour – hour during some hard boosting with your IC positioned under the car. Let us know if you’ll get near the efficacy that Gerry has with his above the engine. As stated before, my IC is in a similar place as yours (your customer), and maybe my core is not as large/efficient as yours, and it aint’ cutting the mustard.
Elite, please post some ambient air temps vs. IAT (pre-intake) after 1/2hour – hour during some hard boosting with your IC positioned under the car. Let us know if you’ll get near the efficacy that Gerry has with his above the engine. As stated before, my IC is in a similar place as yours (your customer), and maybe my core is not as large/efficient as yours, and it aint’ cutting the mustard.[/QUOTE]
Will do, just as soon as my, or Kevins cars are back on the road.
Will do, just as soon as my, or Kevins cars are back on the road.
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