Wow... this could be the exact moment he crapped himself:
Integra FLYS through turn 5 at Road Atlanta
- Thread starter DONYMO
- Start date
OK, here's my video to contribute from that event. This one is a spin by a Porsche. The session had just started, and he had cold slicks and overdrove them. I was holding back, waiting for mine to heat up. The spin happens just off camera and I pass thru a big cloud of tire smoke. He jumps back in behind me. Then let him pass me on the beginning of the back straight, still wanting to hold back a bit. I talked with him later, he said it flat sided his 2 front tires.
It's a big file (66 megs). Probably best to right-click and save as, to view it locally.
RoadATL Porsche Spin
Jeff
It's a big file (66 megs). Probably best to right-click and save as, to view it locally.
RoadATL Porsche Spin
Jeff
I don't think its worth being too hard on the Integra guy... most likely he learned his lesson. Drive within your abilities. I definitely remember shooting off the track a couple times on my first track events. 
That being said, I still go off occasionally... but usually when I'm either being a bonehead or being really competitive.
I though NASA HPDE4 usually allow open passing anywhere with the overtaker taking responsibility for the clean pass. As for the McLaren passing someone... if you are on the track, its your responsiblity to pay attention all the time. The McLaren guy, if he was smart would also assume that you didn't see him and take the appropriate precation. We participate in a dangerous sport... the responsibility is on both drivers all the time.
That being said, I still go off occasionally... but usually when I'm either being a bonehead or being really competitive.I though NASA HPDE4 usually allow open passing anywhere with the overtaker taking responsibility for the clean pass. As for the McLaren passing someone... if you are on the track, its your responsiblity to pay attention all the time. The McLaren guy, if he was smart would also assume that you didn't see him and take the appropriate precation. We participate in a dangerous sport... the responsibility is on both drivers all the time.
For perspective, Jeff's vid (above) gives a clean view of the line through T5, where those that haven't driven at RA can get an idea of the elevation change, and see the track out/wall on driver's right better than in Don's vid clip of the Integra incident. In viewing Jeff's clip, notice all the marks on the barrier on the right!
The download is no problem if you have a 3+mbps broadband connection... :biggrin:
The download is no problem if you have a 3+mbps broadband connection... :biggrin:
Wrong. Your description is applicable to competition events and run groups, run under competition rules (with open passing anywhere, no signal required) - NOT for HPDE events and run groups.kenjiMR said:
All HPDE groups at NASA events run with the same rules. A car being passed must give the passing car a hand signal. In the absence of a hand signal, the car behind DOES NOT PASS.
The reason for rules is to enable all drivers to have the same expectations of what each other will do. Under HPDE passing rules, the expectation of any driver is that there will not be another car alongside, except when he has given a passing signal (or is passing another car on that car's signal).
The responsibility is on both drivers TO FOLLOW THE RULES. In the incident described above, the driver of the McLaren did not do so. If there had been an accident, it would have been entirely his fault, and if he had an ounce of decency - which is doubtful based on his unsafe track driving - he would have paid for any damages to both cars.
nsxtasy said:
I think your region must have different rules.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html
There is generally no signal required in HPDE4 in NorCal or SoCal I believe.
It's possible. My recollection from instructing and driving in HPDE4 in the Indiana/Ohio Chapter is that passing signals were indeed required. (And that link does not specify which "passing restrictions" are looser for HPDE4 - whether it's signals, or just whether specific passing zones are not designated.)kenjiMR said:
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the event Tom (RP-Motorsports) describes wasn't a NASA event at all. I believe last year was the first NASA event at Road America.
The point, of course, is not whether it was a NASA event or not, but rather, whether the McLaren was failing to wait for a passing signal in an event where such a signal was required before passing. And it appears from Tom's posts that that was indeed the case. In which case, the McLaren driver was clearly responsible (or, I should say, IRresponsible).
oh speaking of which... lots of HPDE4 cars are race cars that have window nets. You can't even point someone by even if you tried.
Again, it's all about EXPECTATIONS. In events and run groups in which passing signals are required, special arrangements are made for cars in which signals can't be given - either turn signals, or pulling to the side, or some other way in which it is communicated to the car behind that it's okay to pass. These are covered in the drivers' meeting at the start of the day.kenjiMR said:oh speaking of which... lots of HPDE4 cars are race cars that have window nets. You can't even point someone by even if you tried.
When passing signals are required, and no arrangements are made for any other specific circumstances, every driver there expects a car alongside only after giving or taking a passing signal. Under such circumstances, passing without a signal is DANGEROUS.
Kenji, why are you so insistent on trying to claim some exception to an exception to an exception, to figure out some way to excuse the McLaren driver from his outrageously unsafe behavior? You should become a criminal defense attorney (if you are not already one)...
nsxtasy said:
No, I just get a kick out of making you type shit. Obviously I wasn't at the track and witness the situation. I was just saying that advanced means advanced... nobody needs to hold your hand and tell you what to do. If you have a problem with someone's driving style, you should take the appropriate precaution, talk to the person, or just go home. Of course if you are not following the rules agreed beforehand, then you will probably get kicked out of the event eventually and get a bad reputation.
HPDE4 is designed for racers or soon to be racers to get a feel for racing conditions AFAIK. In racing, as you know, has contact from time to time.
Its NASAProRacing... not NASADriveAroundInTrafficAvoidingObjects...
btw. I'm the egotistical asshole because I recently climbed to the top of the Pyramid of Speed as seen on Doug Hayashi's site:
http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm
[edited for the last lines]
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Yes bad shit happens, and when it does, I find the idiot in the paddock after the session. Usually it is a slow guy that gives no point that upsets me. But Ken is right, there is a time and place for rules in all non-race events.
Getting back on topic, I too feel he was watching his mirror too much. I try to hold my line all the time (even if followed by a S7) then once I hit track out, I get settled, and give a point. Also DO NOT BRAKE!!!!! just keep a 9/10ths acceleration going, and wait for the fast guy to go by. Whats really great, is when you are all of the same skill, because it is almost like sex, where the drivers can read each others minds as to where the point will be before it comes. All it takes is one knucklehead to screw up a good paint job though!
Getting back on topic, I too feel he was watching his mirror too much. I try to hold my line all the time (even if followed by a S7) then once I hit track out, I get settled, and give a point. Also DO NOT BRAKE!!!!! just keep a 9/10ths acceleration going, and wait for the fast guy to go by. Whats really great, is when you are all of the same skill, because it is almost like sex, where the drivers can read each others minds as to where the point will be before it comes. All it takes is one knucklehead to screw up a good paint job though!
NASA has racing groups for racing, and HPDE groups that have rules of conduct. Other groups hold separate events: racing events with racing rules, and HPDE events with HPDE rules. Don't follow the rules, and sure, you'll be kicked out. Or worse; if you cause an accident because (in your words) you're an egotistical asshole who refuses to follow the rules, you may find that you need the services of another egotistical asshole who acts as your defense attorney.kenjiMR said:
You're right when you say that racing has contact from time to time. But THIS WASN'T A RACE. Your claim that racing has contact is like hitting another car in the parking lot on race day and telling the other driver, "Oh well, that's racing!" Try it if you want to insist on proving to others how you're an egotistical asshole.
Exactly. And this was a non-race event. NOT A RACE.RP-Motorsports said:
Driving his mirrors was really his only mistake. Once he is looking behind him and not the road, bad things happen. You also had some time where you started following him and not driving your own line. Not a good thing either.
You should see what we as instructors do to break people of both habits.
p.s. Stop now Kenji, or Ken will think you're only here to attack him. His arguement has already degraded to name calling, you attorney you.
You should see what we as instructors do to break people of both habits.
p.s. Stop now Kenji, or Ken will think you're only here to attack him. His arguement has already degraded to name calling, you attorney you.
nsxtasy said:
Ken, you crack me up... I'm not disagreeing with you that individuals need to take the necessary responsibilities and follow the rules. Though, each person has his own view of the calculated risks he is willing to take. I think what we disagree on is the on-track attitude and definition of an "advanced" driver. An advanced driver at the "race" track should be able to handle any on-track situation.
Just to add some "exotic" touch from Europe: At track (not race) events here we have the common rule that the car in front always holds its proper racing line when the driver sees a car behind - no swaying to one side to let the other pass - the driver behind has to look how and where he can pass.
There are usualy no passing signals required (not even with newbies) but a lot of drivers (like me) do set the turning signal when we see a faster car from behind - if I stay at the left side, I set the left signal and vice versa...
Fast drivers are always adviced at the briefings that they have to take care and the responsabiltity when they want to pass slower cars.
Believe it or not, we have nearly no passing accidents (but some hairy situations however).
There are usualy no passing signals required (not even with newbies) but a lot of drivers (like me) do set the turning signal when we see a faster car from behind - if I stay at the left side, I set the left signal and vice versa...
Fast drivers are always adviced at the briefings that they have to take care and the responsabiltity when they want to pass slower cars.
Believe it or not, we have nearly no passing accidents (but some hairy situations however).
This is pretty much the same as the rules we have here: it is up to the overtaking driver to ensure a clean pass. That being said, it is also up to ALL drivers to be aware of traffic, which is something RP was not.
NSXT said:
I agree whole heartedly. ALL drivers should be aware of traffic. In front or behind. As far passing is, it depends on the rules. I wasn't there nor do I pretend to know the rules on any given club.
NSXT said:... You also had some time where you started following him and not driving your own line. Not a good thing either.
You should see what we as instructors do to break people of both habits.
NSXT, Don (the following driver) is a veteran with over 1000 laps at Road Atlanta, and is instructor qualified with 6 organizations, including the NSXCA. Even though the Integra was working hard (too hard), he was way off of Don's normal pace, and Don may have relaxed his line momentarily...
How many laps have you done at Road Atlanta?
So, let's chalk him switching to 'follow mode' up to an experienced decision. I don't believe I made any statement as to why he changed lines, I was simply observing that he had, IMO.
This is truensxtasy said:
As a beginner in this turn you may start off using text book practices of a typical turn in and apex of a seemingly constant radius turn. If you stay with the text book line you will find yourself getting loose, as the transition near the apex is abrupt. This will severely limit your speed. As NSXTASY mentioned this will unload the suspension and grip. The key to this somewhat blind turn is to increase or straighten your radius near the apex and transition, and temporarily drive towards the wall, then slowly decrease your radius as you get better grip… before running out of track. When going into this turn with that in mind, you will find that there is quite a bit of paved runoff that the faster drivers use. Turn 5 is one of the important places for good times. Hitting the rumble strip is not advisable.
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