I need tire help. PLEASE! (track/street)

TURBO2GO

TURBO2GO

Illustrious Member
Joined
8 March 2006
Messages
16,594
Location
Boston
OK guys I really need some tire help. I have searched and read through a dozen threads, been on the web for days and days, and really am confused as to what I should do.

I have a set of Falken Azenis 615's on my car now, fronts are good, rears are worn. I don't know if I should toss all 4 or not.

My car is stock suspension other than STMPO and R chassis bars. I drive my car summer only, pretty much to and from the track. I may take it to get an occasional ice cream. This is not street driven much, and I really am not worried about getting pulled over or being ilegal.

I am doing an HPDE in Moticello Motor club in August at the 4.1 mile track with the Ferrari club. I have done 4 days with trackmasters at WGI, 4 days with BMWCCA at NHMS, a skidpad and autoX day.

My finalists are:

1) Dunlop Star Spec 101 in stock size (17, my car is a 2005). These look good in the latest C&D tire test and in tirerack's own test, come in the right size, and are priced well. There is a $60 rebate til august 8.

2) Yokohama AD08. These are the "latest", I have seen some good reviews but no head to head tests.

3) Falken 615. Get another rear set, call it a day til the fronts wear out and I have more track skill.

4) Go with a track tire. I really don't know much here. I read in several threads guys are running 235/40/17 front and 275/30/17 (or 18) in the rear. Will rub on full lock (no biggie, I won't go full lock). Bad with lowered suspensions, I don't have that. Hoosier 225's have also been suggested. I just don't know what sort of risk I am taking on the street with these.

If this post sounds confused, it is because I am. I don't want to miss out on the Dunlop rebate, I have 6 days left. What would you do?
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

TURBO2GO said:
I posted this in the tire section but probably should have done so here. Mods please delete the other thread (sorry).

===============

OK guys I really need some tire help. I have searched and read through a dozen threads, been on the web for days and days, and really am confused as to what I should do.

I have a set of Falken Azenis 615's on my car now, fronts are good, rears are worn. I don't know if I should toss all 4 or not.

My car is stock suspension other than STMPO and R chassis bars. I drive my car summer only, pretty much to and from the track. I may take it to get an occasional ice cream. This is not street driven much, and I really am not worried about getting pulled over or being ilegal.

I am doing an HPDE in Moticello Motor club in August at the 4.1 mile track with the Ferrari club. I have done 4 days with trackmasters at WGI, 4 days with BMWCCA at NHMS, a skidpad and autoX day.

My finalists are:

1) Dunlop Star Spec 101 in stock size (17, my car is a 2005). These look good in the latest C&D tire test and in tirerack's own test, come in the right size, and are priced well. There is a $60 rebate til august 8.

2) Yokohama AD08. These are the "latest", I have seen some good reviews but no head to head tests.

3) Falken 615. Get another rear set, call it a day til the fronts wear out and I have more track skill.

4) Go with a track tire. I really don't know much here. I read in several threads guys are running 235/40/17 front and 275/30/17 (or 18) in the rear. Will rub on full lock (no biggie, I won't go full lock). Bad with lowered suspensions, I don't have that. Hoosier 225's have also been suggested. I just don't know what sort of risk I am taking on the street with these.

If this post sounds confused, it is because I am. I don't want to miss out on the Dunlop rebate, I have 6 days left. What would you do?
Click to expand...

Dunlop Z1 star spec is great for street tires, autoX, time attack, or wet track days, I'm not sure about hot dry track day though... I'm so used to my R compound tires I always overheating street tires. (R compound tires will last longer than the street tires.) So I only used the Z1 when it's wet and for street driving. By the way DZ101 is crappy, I use them on my daily miata just because they are so cheap. They are night and day diff. than the Z1.

Go to Discount tires and try to get a salesperson that will "hook you up" I just got my 2nd set of Nitto NT01 235/40/17 and 275/35/18 for $1000 inc. tax and installation... my last set lasted me 3 years with 10+ track days. Can't get any better than that.

If I were you I'll just get a pair or the falkens for street tires, and get a seperate set of R compounds with wheels. It's proven to be the best use of tires.
 
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Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

NSXDreamer2 said:
Dunlop Z1 star spec is great for street tires, autoX, time attack, or wet track days, I'm not sure about hot dry track day though... I'm so used to my R compound tires I always overheating street tires. (R compound tires will last longer than the street tires.) So I only used the Z1 when it's wet and for street driving. By the way DZ101 is crappy, I use them on my daily miata just because they are so cheap. They are night and day diff. than the Z1.

Go to Discount tires and try to get a salesperson that will "hook you up" I just got my 2nd set of Nitto NT01 235/40/17 and 275/35/18 for $1000 inc. tax and installation... my last set lasted me 3 years with 10+ track days. Can't get any better than that.

If I were you I'll just get a pair or the falkens for street tires, and get a seperate set of R compounds with wheels. It's proven to be the best use of tires.
Click to expand...

Is that the most ideal track setup? 235/40/17 front and 275/35/18? I prefer to get a set of coilovers and drop the car down for track events where I never go full lock and then raise it once back on the street than to get 2 sets of wheels and tires. But it looks like I need to have an 18" rear to match the fronts? Am I overdoing this with 9 track days under my belt?
 
Get another set of rear 615s. By the time you finish off the fronts, the rears will also be close to being gone. If not, go out to an empty parking lot and practice drifting to finish them off. :)

Next set of tires - get the Dunlops. I assume you mean the Dunlop Z1 Star Spec. The Direzza DZ 101s are not in the same league. Unless cashflow is tight, go ahead and get a full set of them now so you can use the rebate. If you don't cook off the 615s this season, then store the Dunlops until next spring.

The Yok 08s are almost twice the $ but not twice the grip. If the price was closer I'd try the Yoks.... but there is too much of a premium for consumables and the Dunlop Z1 is no slouch.
 
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CL65 Captain said:
Get another set of rear 615s. By the time you finish off the fronts, the rears will also be close to being gone. If not, go out to an empty parking lot and practice drifting to finish them off. :)

Next set of tires - get the Dunlops. I assume you mean the Dunlop Z1 Star Spec. The Direzza DZ 101s are not in the same league. Unless cashflow is tight, go ahead and get a full set of them now so you can use the rebate. If you don't cook off the 615s this season, then store the Dunlops until next spring.

The Yok 08s are almost twice the $ but not twice the grip. If the price was closer I'd try the Yoks.... but there is too much of a premium for consumables and the Dunlop Z1 is no slouch.
Click to expand...

Yes, I meant the Z1 not the POS 101. So you aren't recommending the jump to an R compound now? I literally am just driving the car to and from the tracks now. Sometimes that is 300 miles though. Man, Lud is gonna kill me I cross posted this in the track section. ooops... Sorry Lud.
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

TURBO2GO said:
Is that the most ideal track setup? 235/40/17 front and 275/35/18? I prefer to get a set of coilovers and drop the car down for track events where I never go full lock and then raise it once back on the street than to get 2 sets of wheels and tires. But it looks like I need to have an 18" rear to match the fronts? Am I overdoing this with 9 track days under my belt?
Click to expand...

you might be overdoing it a bit, but if you intend to continue tracking the car then you'll be wanting two sets of wheels/tires eventually. track tires are designed to work at higher temps than even the best street tires and unless you're concerned about every possible second they often last quite a while (ie, ignore heat cycles and just run them until the rubber is gone).

changing coilover ride height each time is probably not a good idea, i don't know anyone who does that. it screws with toe and the corner weights may be off which negatively affects handling. get coilovers with adjustable damping, run them soft on the street and firm on the track, set the ride height to a good compromise, and you'll be far happier.

sent you a PM btw
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

If you are going to keep your stock set of wheels, the Starspec has become a popular trackable street tire that is more predictable, audible, and faster than the 615s, they are comparable with the Yokohama AD07. The new AD08 is the benchmark for street tires and is a second faster than the AD07 on a 2.5mile+ track. The 08 also is more consistent and lasts longer than the Starspec, but they are more expensive. The AD08 is actually close in performance to some R-compound tires. We compete with AD08s on our R34 GTR in the R-compound class.

I don't remember the stock 17"wheel widths but I wouldn't put a 235 on a 7" wide front wheel, 7.5 would be the minimum and preferably 8". Same with the rear, I wouldn't put anything wider than 265 on a 8.5" wheel.

Since your car seems to be a weekend toy/track car, a dedicated set of wider wheels and R-comps might be the best choice. 17x8 & 17x9.5 with a 235/40-17 and 275/40-17 or
17x8 & 18x9.5 with a 235/40-17 and 275/35-18

are the "standard" that most people run for an aggressive track setup.

Yokohama A048, Toyo R888, and Nitto NT01s are the most popular R-compounds with the last being the easiest to drive on.

It might be a good idea to consider upgrading your suspension if going to wider than stock R-comps and tracking your car more. Some good examples are HKS Hypermax 3, KW V3 (with or without custom spring rates), or JRZ RS coilovers. Email [email protected] for pricing.

From your videos, you are rolling a good amount of mid-corner speed but need to work on your braking. At least you have the larger rotors, but you might find the limits of the stock system when pushing the car to its limit on R-comps, but that would be a ways away so it wouldn't be a short-term problem. Since you are going fast through the corner on stock wheels, the cornering speeds will be higher with wider R-comps, putting more strain on the oiling system which can cause oil starvation. A baffled pan, accusump, oil temp and pressure gauges would be highly recommended to avoid spinning a rod bearing.

Think about what direction you want to go with the car and keep in mind, just improving your brake zones alone will have you easily passing almost everything out there, especially those 911turbos, while R-comps raise th bar that much more where you'll be lapping them.

Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

Billy
Aka: "Stuntman"
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

FXMDBilly said:
The new AD08 is the benchmark for street tires and is a second faster than the AD07 on a 2.5mile+ track.
Click to expand...

Where did you get this info?

See the problem with a second set of wheels and tires is that I drive to the track and back. I don't want a trailer and an SUV to haul it. Where would I put 4 wheels and tires? I have to just have one set. If its OK to run a Nitto-NT01 on the street and I just need to upgrade wheels, then that may be a better option because I can get 1500-2K for the stock wheels. I will get offsets that will clear an eventual BBK.

Now you got me thinking of the whole oiling issue too. Does that need to be addressed right at the R compound stage?
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

TURBO2GO said:
Where did you get this info?

See the problem with a second set of wheels and tires is that I drive to the track and back. I don't want a trailer and an SUV to haul it. Where would I put 4 wheels and tires? I have to just have one set. If its OK to run a Nitto-NT01 on the street and I just need to upgrade wheels, then that may be a better option because I can get 1500-2K for the stock wheels. I will get offsets that will clear an eventual BBK.

Now you got me thinking of the whole oiling issue too. Does that need to be addressed right at the R compound stage?
Click to expand...
the AD08 has been shown to be over half a second faster than the AD07 on. The ~1mile Tskuba track in Japan, documented by many videos with similar results on other mile-long tracks.

Some will say never run R-comps on the street and will give you tons of reasons, they are slicker in deep water, slicker when not up to temp, etc... I've driven on R-comps on the street in my miata, a friends Mercedes E63AMG sedan, S2000s, and recommend them on high hp nsxs even on the street because they have more grip than street tires which is really needed at 500+whp.

For your dry weekend/track use, I don't think its a problem atall to run R-comps to/from the track and on the weekend. If you have an agressive alignment they will wear down a little more on prolonged street use (not a problem for your said application), they are pretty good in the wet except you want to avoid deep standing water.

The severity of the oil starvation depends on how hard its being driven and the track. If you are truly pushing the car to its limits, full throttle in long duration sweeping corners, its possible to have starvation on street tires. On the other hand, you can have a turbo and racing slicks and if you aren't pushing it and don't go back to power until the straights, you might never even run into a problem.

Forced induction, R-comps, long duration sweepers, and driving the car at its limit (and going to full throttle from apex to track out) all increase the demand on the oiling system and starvation problems start to arise.

Your videos looked pretty good and it looked like you were doing a good job in the corners. At a minimum, investing in oil temp and pressure gauges would probably be an important first step to catch a problem before it happens. "It depends" is never an answer anyone wants to hear but its the truth and depends on how hard the car is pushed.

Billy
 
Hrant said:
I too recommend you stay with option 3 until you wear off the fronts. One of the biggest mistakes people make is transitioning to R compound too soon.
Click to expand...

Ditto ,+2 whatever the I "agree" term of the day is:wink:
 
Seems like Dunlop runs a rebate almost every month, I wouldn't rush into anything because of a rebate. I love the Z1 Star Spec's though!
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

I have to agree with 2slow2speed. Nitto's are phenomenal tires at a competitive price. Although the Yokohama ADO8 sound like you could just buy them for Street/Track and be done with it. In the end i have had some experience with nitto's and i love them.
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

TURBO2GO said:
Where did you get this info?

See the problem with a second set of wheels and tires is that I drive to the track and back. I don't want a trailer and an SUV to haul it. Where would I put 4 wheels and tires? I have to just have one set. If its OK to run a Nitto-NT01 on the street and I just need to upgrade wheels, then that may be a better option because I can get 1500-2K for the stock wheels. I will get offsets that will clear an eventual BBK.

Now you got me thinking of the whole oiling issue too. Does that need to be addressed right at the R compound stage?
Click to expand...

remove the passenger seat: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120903

my car has an accusump even though i usually drive on street tires. might be overkill, but it's sure nice being able to flog it without worrying about oil starvation. especially when motors cost 10k and you have to drive the car home.
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

2slow2speed said:
FWIW:
Nitto NT-05 for a trackable street tire
Nitto NT-01 for a track tire

Prices are reasonable for the tires.
Click to expand...

Ken,
Where have you been? Long time no post? Did you ever get another track car after you sold the NSX? Do you still have the GT3? Where are you living?
ryan
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

I used to run R comps on the track and switch back to street tires when I got home. I have three sets of wheels and finally got too lazy to change my wheels each time I went to the track.

Now I run my R888's 100% of the time. I drive them to the office, to the mall and out on the town with the wife. Never had a problem, but then again, I don't ever drive them in the rain and I never drive spiritedly on the street now that I track my car.

The R888's last a long time on the street as well. Don't worry about the street unless you drive in the rain.
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

ryneen said:
I used to run R comps on the track and switch back to street tires when I got home. I have three sets of wheels and finally got too lazy to change my wheels each time I went to the track.

Now I run my R888's 100% of the time. I drive them to the office, to the mall and out on the town with the wife. Never had a problem, but then again, I don't ever drive them in the rain and I never drive spiritedly on the street now that I track my car.

The R888's last a long time on the street as well. Don't worry about the street unless you drive in the rain.
Click to expand...

What size are you running and on what size wheels?
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

Drive to the track-> get Toyo R888 or Nitto NT-01
Trailering car -> Hoosier R6s

I run R6s (225/40/17, 285/35/18) with -3.5 camber front, -3.0 rear.
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

TURBO2GO said:
What size are you running and on what size wheels?
Click to expand...

Toyo R888: front 235/40/17 (8" wheel), rear 275/40/17 (10" wheel)
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

Can you guys running R compounds in the 235/275 tell me how that extra weight and width affects steering response and feel? I'm assuming this also must change the car to either a more understeer or oversteer attitude. So long as you don't go full lock there should be no running issues on stock ride height, right? I mean I won't rub going to the grocery store to get a box of Magnum XXXL condoms, right?
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

TURBO2GO said:
Can you guys running R compounds in the 235/275 tell me how that extra weight and width affects steering response and feel? I'm assuming this also must change the car to either a more understeer or oversteer attitude. So long as you don't go full lock there should be no running issues on stock ride height, right? I mean I won't rub going to the grocery store to get a box of Magnum XXXL condoms, right?
Click to expand...

No you can still get your condoms.I could run the 235/275 combo all the time the front rub is minor imo....the most annoying part of R compounds on the street in every day life is they pick up more pebbles/grizzle and plink them all over,they make you slow way down in heavy rain.But again As everyone else on this board is telling you...don't jump to mondo R tires until your skill set makes your tires the limiting factor in lap times.
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

You folks in southern California suggesting R compounds is OK for street use need to consider where he's located - in Massachusetts. If there's a chance you'll ever drive your car in cold weather, do not get R compounds as your only tire because they will crack in cold weather.

I think even Toyo or Nitto says this on their website.

The first semi-warm Spring day (which is about 40F for New Englanders) when the roads are cool and dry may surprise you if your car has been sitting in a non-insulated and/or a non-heated garage all winter.

My $0.02.

Dave
 
Re: Tire help. PLEASE!!!

But Doc, how is the steering feel changed? Do ride and steering feel go to shit?

Macattack, my car is garaged all winter long.
 

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