Hybrid Acura NSX will be priced to rival Porsche 911 (around $105,000)

[WingZ]

Speaking of the RLX causing worry, I am concerned that the RLX Sport Hybrid model production schedule has also been pushed back. I thought they were going to introduce as a 2014 (i.e. fall of 2013)? If they are pushing it back, are they struggling to get the electric motors to vector torque or possibly work seemlessly with the combustion engine and transmission? And is this going be an issue for the new NSX?

That's the thought that goes through my mind as well. This isn't an "M" version of the car so waiting this long for the top version is making me wonder if they're having problems with it.

I sure hope not.

The original NSX was a home run out of the ball park and the next NSX has been hyped to death by HONDA and the media and another home run is fully expected. The development team and HONDA itself have been set up well and truly for either merely delivering what has been promised and now fully expected or else.

Any "issues" that either come up with the car after it is introduced or that cause significant delay (even 2016 instead of 2015) will very seriously damage the image of HONDA and the future NSX.

I feel for the development team. The original NSX came on the scene when nothing was expected of it and when the Ferrari and Porsche competition of the day were essentially caught off guard and sleeping. The were awakened by the NSX and have continued to up their game RELENTLESSLY ever since. The NSX of 2015 is going to have to face the 2015 458 and GT3 among others. The bar that HONDA raised and challenged the competition with has continued to be raised while HONDA went on its hibernation. Now as the NSX prepares once again for its assault on the powers that be, the attack is not the blind siding that it was a quarter century ago and the defenders are fully armed with lethal weapons that produce out of this world performance while delivering sounds fit to be played in a symphony orchestra and that Mr. klaus himself found so profoundly moving.

When HONDA finally showed their vision of the next NSX they must have been aware of the formidable challenge at hand and if such a challenge had to be undertaken by any, I am glad and encouraged that it was HONDA, AN ENGINEERING POWERHOUSE second to none and at long last getting back in the ring with fighting gloves on and talking smack.

The gauntlet has bee thrown, the tough talk has been heard....now HONDA needs to deliver and knock the ball out of the ball park once again.

This is also another reason they can't come out the box with a big sticker price. They can't afford to make it look cheap but they've lost quite a bit as it "street cred" for dropping the ball while the car was out then dropping it all together. Honda brought the car back because as everyone recalls they were having huge image problems. Reviving the NSX to get as it were their Mojo back.

Seriously though we still haven't seen any of the other "rumored" models like baby NSX and so forth. The little S660 isn't coming here and we've seen nothing about an S2000 replacement other than supposed leaks. This makes me wonder if Honda is just generating rumors and trying to revive the base.

The bar wasn't very high back in the 1980's. Ferrari 328 and Testarossa are just lookers, Audi had nothing, Nissan had nothing, Corvettes were jokes. The bar has risen over and over by other makers since the introduction of the original NSX. Everyone is using aluminum and some (CF), and they all figured out high NA output using the same system Honda came up with. However, there are more potential buyers out there in today's environment even with this donkey of a economy. If Nissan can sell every GTR's they make at full msrp plus some, there is hope that the new NSX can have the similar result. That's why if the car can run with Nissan GTR, the look alone should sell more car if they are priced similarly. It will be foolish for Honda to price this car above NA 911, when you know the production cost will be lower than the german rivals.

Agreed on the pricing and don't understand why others don't see that. Over pricing this car will kill it fast and I want it to be a success.

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Speaking of the RLX causing worry, I am concerned that the RLX Sport Hybrid model production schedule has also been pushed back. I thought they were going to introduce as a 2014 (i.e. fall of 2013)? If they are pushing it back, are they struggling to get the electric motors to vector torque or possibly work seemlessly with the combustion engine and transmission? And is this going be an issue for the new NSX?

That's the thought that goes through my mind as well. This isn't an "M" version of the car so waiting this long for the top version is making me wonder if they're having problems with it.

I sure hope not.

The original NSX was a home run out of the ball park and the next NSX has been hyped to death by HONDA and the media and another home run is fully expected. The development team and HONDA itself have been set up well and truly for either merely delivering what has been promised and now fully expected or else.

Any "issues" that either come up with the car after it is introduced or that cause significant delay (even 2016 instead of 2015) will very seriously damage the image of HONDA and the future NSX.

I feel for the development team. The original NSX came on the scene when nothing was expected of it and when the Ferrari and Porsche competition of the day were essentially caught off guard and sleeping. The were awakened by the NSX and have continued to up their game RELENTLESSLY ever since. The NSX of 2015 is going to have to face the 2015 458 and GT3 among others. The bar that HONDA raised and challenged the competition with has continued to be raised while HONDA went on its hibernation. Now as the NSX prepares once again for its assault on the powers that be, the attack is not the blind siding that it was a quarter century ago and the defenders are fully armed with lethal weapons that produce out of this world performance while delivering sounds fit to be played in a symphony orchestra and that Mr. klaus himself found so profoundly moving.

When HONDA finally showed their vision of the next NSX they must have been aware of the formidable challenge at hand and if such a challenge had to be undertaken by any, I am glad and encouraged that it was HONDA, AN ENGINEERING POWERHOUSE second to none and at long last getting back in the ring with fighting gloves on and talking smack.

The gauntlet has bee thrown, the tough talk has been heard....now HONDA needs to deliver and knock the ball out of the ball park once again.

This is also another reason they can't come out the box with a big sticker price. They can't afford to make it look cheap but they've lost quite a bit as it "street cred" for dropping the ball while the car was out then dropping it all together. Honda brought the car back because as everyone recalls they were having huge image problems. Reviving the NSX to get as it were their Mojo back.

Seriously though we still haven't seen any of the other "rumored" models like baby NSX and so forth. The little S660 isn't coming here and we've seen nothing about an S2000 replacement other than supposed leaks. This makes me wonder if Honda is just generating rumors and trying to revive the base.

The bar wasn't very high back in the 1980's. Ferrari 328 and Testarossa are just lookers, Audi had nothing, Nissan had nothing, Corvettes were jokes. The bar has risen over and over by other makers since the introduction of the original NSX. Everyone is using aluminum and some (CF), and they all figured out high NA output using the same system Honda came up with. However, there are more potential buyers out there in today's environment even with this donkey of a economy. If Nissan can sell every GTR's they make at full msrp plus some, there is hope that the new NSX can have the similar result. That's why if the car can run with Nissan GTR, the look alone should sell more car if they are priced similarly. It will be foolish for Honda to price this car above NA 911, when you know the production cost will be lower than the german rivals.

Agreed on the pricing and don't understand why others don't see that. Over pricing this car will kill it fast and I want it to be a success.

 

[Silver F16]

BD, you are spot on about the Civic refresh. I'm still upset at honda for building such a turd of a car. I don't care that a bunch of people still buy it and are blind to its ugliness and let the Civic badge and quailty heritage guide their decision. There is no excuse to building ugly cars. Designing an ugly car is like coming home with a D on your report card. Try a lot harder, Honda. Put some effort and heart into it. You are getting too comfortable with making plain cars. Even your RLX interior needs work. It is not an interior suitable for a $60K car.

As for Gen 2 NSX, I'm suspect it is very much an evolution of the gen 1 chassis. With exotic material and design updates thrown in there. The LFA took toyota 10 years to develop. Despite that duration, some elements of the design was derived from the Supra. I kid you not.

...


As for the Civic, the 2012 refresh, I'm quoting the article you're using:

"Honda has performed a thorough do-over of the Civic for 2013, modifying its look, its interior ambience, its front structure, and its suspension and steering systems.
With new front and rear styling, Honda grafts a shiny smile to the formerly sad, sluglike shape of the four-door Civic. Honda says it’s a more “emotional” and “youthful” design. This, of course, means nothing."

While Car and Driver repeated what Honda told them through a nice sales pitch, the truth is far from it.

As close friend of 25 years who is working high up in Nissan said, Honda simply return the decontented contents back to the car because the 2011 had a public relations disaster, with poor review for it's cheapness! Adding some chrome strips, using nicer materials, tightening up the steering ratio is nothing special, but somehow you think it's magical that they got that done in one year - One a car they supposed to sell more than 300,000 a year. yeah, they're paying the same attention to a future car they might not even sell 1000 a year.
....

 

[liftcontrol]

As for Gen 2 NSX, I'm suspect it is very much an evolution of the gen 1 chassis. With exotic material and design updates thrown in there.

If it is an evolution of the gen 1 chassis, I wonder if it is as good as it would have been if HONDA had been continuously developing and refining it over the past 25 years like the 911? If it is an evolution, HONDA is taking a 25 year old chassis and in one go trying to turn it into something capable of handling torsion and forces of an entirely and hopefully spectacularly greater nature. This chassis will be handling HP and torque figures about twice that of the original and the g-forces imposed on this chassis will be monumental given the handling prowess that HONDA are promising.

The gen 1 chassis was great for the low torque, weight and hp figures of the original NSX. This is and has to be an altogether different beast however. Sometimes it is easier to design a new chassis if the demands are so much greater than to try to modify an existing one no matter how good it was for a car from a quarter of a century ago. We will find out soon enough

 

[liftnot]

I'm still upset at honda for building such a turd of a car. There is no excuse to building ugly cars. Designing an ugly car is like coming home with a D on your report card.
As for Gen 2 NSX, I'm suspect it is very much an evolution of the gen 1 chassis. The LFA took toyota 10 years to develop. Despite that duration, some elements of the design was derived from the Supra. I kid you not.

couldn't agree with you more and your previous thread. also, Prius = butt ugly, Leaf = butt ugly, volt = plain, Tesla = :applause:
there must be a reason there is no news bragging about the Gen 2 chassis as it should except we know its Alum, therefore, a modded Gen 1 will meet the deadline and the price but they surely can't announce that to the public. I believe the Gen 1 chassis can compete with GT3/458 but adding all the extra green/awd/V6 stuff will turn it into a sporty car. a flat plane V8(turbo/na) w/ dry sump is quite sexy and enticing even if it costs more. I sure willing to sell my kidney for one.

I saw the LFA complete cutaway at the LA auto show, what elements does it share with the Supra? other than the power-train layout.

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If it is an evolution of the gen 1 chassis, I wonder if it is as good as it would have been if HONDA had been continuously developing and refining it over the past 25 years like the 911? If it is an evolution, HONDA is taking a 25 year old chassis and in one go trying to turn it into something capable of handling torsion and forces of an entirely and hopefully spectacularly greater nature. This chassis will be handling HP and torque figures about twice that of the original and the g-forces imposed on this chassis will be monumental given the handling prowess that HONDA are promising.

The gen 1 chassis was great for the low torque, weight and hp figures of the original NSX. This is and has to be an altogether different beast however. Sometimes it is easier to design a new chassis if the demands are so much greater than to try to modify an existing one no matter how good it was for a car from a quarter of a century ago. We will find out soon enough

It is easier to design from a clean sheet than to mod the existing from a design POV especially with all the talent & computing power Honda has but you would think IF thats the case, they surely want to brag about it and I want to hear about it.

Gen 1 chassis is a great platform, well, certainly not a turd. We have many high power cars on Prime that are very fast w/o a cage and several more winning track cars(that I know of = FX, Danny's 2006 shoot out, Cody's work, SOS work, Coz..etc) with a cage using grassroots effort.

 

[Silver F16]

The clutch assembly is based on the Supra. They had to modify it to be able to withstand the load and rpms. Mostly RPMs. Forces rises exponentially with rpms. The main change was that Toyota went to a different clutch material to withstand the load and rpm.

This is all I know that is based on the Supra. With that said, I suspect the 6 speed trani may also be based on the Supra, albeit modified for automated sequential operation.

Point is, manufacturer usually use some type of benchmark design to derive their final product. Toyota looked at their Supra, and I'm sure benchmarked a bunch of other FR configurations in the industry before developing the LFA. LFA also started out as aluminum but was later revised to incorporate Carbon Fiber when it was deemed too heavy. The car is a combination of aluminum and Carbon Fiber as evident by the cutaway car shown on the autoshow circuits.

While Carbon fiber has superior mechanical properties, Boeing engineers have one surprising thing to share regarding Carbon Fiber. It sucks for crash protection in that carbon shatters during impact, which can be deadly to occupants.

I don't know the details behind the crash but the chief test driver for the LFA got into a head on crash with a 3 series. The LFA driver was killed whereas the 3 series driver suvived. That alone doesn't mean anything. But I always wonder if the carbon structure played a role in his death. The passenger cell stayed intact. Maybe there wasn't enough impact resistance on the front structure. I've also seen many videos where Carbon Fiber Ferraris shatter upon impact, many times separating the rear of the car from the passenger cell.

With that said, I doubt Honda is going Carbon fiber structure. Too costly. They will likely sprinkle carbon panels here and there (hood, roof) and call it a day. Nevetheless, can't wait for the Detroit showing in a few months for them to reveal the powertrain.

 

[N Spec]

BD, you are spot on about the Civic refresh. I'm still upset at honda for building such a turd of a car. I don't care that a bunch of people still buy it and are blind to its ugliness and let the Civic badge and quailty heritage guide their decision. There is no excuse to building ugly cars. Designing an ugly car is like coming home with a D on your report card. Try a lot harder, Honda. Put some effort and heart into it. You are getting too comfortable with making plain cars. Even your RLX interior needs work. It is not an interior suitable for a $60K car.

As for Gen 2 NSX, I'm suspect it is very much an evolution of the gen 1 chassis. With exotic material and design updates thrown in there. The LFA took toyota 10 years to develop. Despite that duration, some elements of the design was derived from the Supra. I kid you not.

I agree about the RLX interior. I actually prefer the TL and TSX interior over the RLX.

The new NSX interior is definitely an evolution of current gens. I really like it except for the really tall and deep center panel/console...

 

[sahtt]

If Honda is smart they'll gauge the market and simply set the price on the initial release to ensure lower supply than demand. The absorption of any resulting losses is not unreasonable given the low production volumes. Given the exotic market place right now I don't think they'll even have an issue unless they really butcher the project and give it <400hp.

Once it is seen as a 'success' by the market place, they can immediately raise the price on the following year's release with little concern about market (over)reaction. There is too much Honda pride and marketing $$$ at stake not to guarantee it succeeds initially. The performance specs aren't in a vacuum and it doesn't even matter how they compare against a 458; it's all about value. The GTR's flaws have been outlined ad nauseam by every car forum on the internet, none more so than this one, but it doesn't matter. The looks, interior, ride comfort, et cetera are all arguable; but it's relative value is outstanding by any metric.

It'll be interesting to see how well the drive train holds up over time and against track use. I am optimistic the new accord hybrid's R&D is directly applicable to the NSX just on a higher level of output/sophistication. I don't think they have the time or dedicated resources (they certainly have them in aggregate) to the NSX project to develop a hybrid drive train 100% from scratch and make sure it maintains the level of reliability people have come to expect from the most reliable super car ever built.

 

[liftcontrol]

No matter how great the next NSX turns out to be, there is a psychological barrier to HONDA or any Japanese car, when it comes to pricing that only Ferrari and to a lesser extent Porsche can transgress. The LFA was a limited production car and it's price of around $400k was still ridiculous and at that price it had to be limited production. There are unused and unsold examples of that car still sitting at Lexus Dealerships. There are at least two 2012 models still available in Houston if someone is interested

I feel that for the next NSX , around $130k will be the upper limit for three good reasons, among others.

1. The GT3 is a superb and realistically priced ($130k) car [unlike the 458 Italia] and it has the name and "prestige" of being a P car and....it is a GT3.
2. The GTR, even though it has the negatives we all know about, is a fantastic performance machine and no matter what else, it is still a relative bargain at around $110k.
3. It is not a limited production car and HONDA actually wants to sell as many as they can, if they can. Pricing has therefore got to be reasonable enough to not turn potential buyers away towards GTR, Carrera2/4S , GT3 etc.

 

[Poofables]

I hope they can respond with a revision for the RLX like they did with the Civic.

I think if they could, they would have done it with the ILX as well which was also a total flop for them. They even released a press statement to the affect of them adding the new Earth Dreams engines for more power as a mid year update for my2013. We have 2014's now... same car.

They pushed back the hybrid RLX as well. I would say that over half the people who look at the RLX end up saying "what do you mean it's FWD?!"

 

[N Spec]

I think if they could, they would have done it with the ILX as well which was also a total flop for them. They even released a press statement to the affect of them adding the new Earth Dreams engines for more power as a mid year update for my2013. We have 2014's now... same car.

They pushed back the hybrid RLX as well. I would say that over half the people who look at the RLX end up saying "what do you mean it's FWD?!"

Lol Honda better start making mid engine Sedans since they favor their trans-axle setup so much. That's the number one turn-off for a company trying to be an ultimate premium luxury brand is that all of their cars are still FWD. The V6 offerings can be debated, but it's the perception of FWD newb-status that holds them back. The sad truth is most of the people who buy these FR luxury cars would never be able to truly handle the performance a RWD car offers over a FWD (let alone push their cars that hard or to the limit), but it's all about bragging rights and perception when you enter these higher tiers.

 

[Poofables]

Lol Honda better start making mid engine Sedans since they favor their trans-axle setup so much. That's the number one turn-off for a company trying to be an ultimate premium luxury brand is that all of their cars are still FWD. The V6 offerings can be debated, but it's the perception of FWD newb-status that holds them back. The sad truth is most of the people who buy these FR luxury cars would never be able to truly handle the performance a RWD car offers over a FWD (let alone push their cars that hard or to the limit), but it's all about bragging rights and perception when you enter these higher tiers.

I think a lot of it is about balance and feel. While a FWD car feels fine in an economy car, the balance of it doesn't seem right in something you are spending that much money on. It doesn't have the balance of the RWD counterparts. Even with the AWD on the previous RL and the TL, they still feel like front drivers.

 

[liftcontrol]

Lol Honda better start making mid engine Sedans since they favor their trans-axle setup so much. That's the number one turn-off for a company trying to be an ultimate premium luxury brand is that all of their cars are still FWD. The V6 offerings can be debated, but it's the perception of FWD newb-status that holds them back. The sad truth is most of the people who buy these FR luxury cars would never be able to truly handle the performance a RWD car offers over a FWD (let alone push their cars that hard or to the limit), but it's all about bragging rights and perception when you enter these higher tiers.

Amazing. Is HONDA really that much out of touch with the reality and the target population of the RLX? Or is it just pure arrogance that they, HONDA, know better what the stupid consumers need and "should" want??? Boggles the mind!

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finally.....

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/01/acura-rlx-sport-hybrid-sh-awd-la-auto-show-reveal/

 

[N Spec]

Amazing. Is HONDA really that much out of touch with the reality and the target population of the RLX? Or is it just pure arrogance that they, HONDA, know better what the stupid consumers need and "should" want??? Boggles the mind!

I thought the same thing. Perhaps it's Honda's commentary on the general mass is that they don't truly need RWD cars, as most drivers just want nice design, comfort and the perception that they have a fast car, even though they will only be going 10 over the speed limit on a daily basis. Save the other 5% to drive RWD cars like the NSX or S2000. The other question is while the sales/marketing team is always trying to expand and capture new customers, is Honda overall comfortable with their current market share for Honda and Acura sales? I personally would never want Honda near top 3, as I think quality and vision will be compromised.

They seem to really favor simplicity and efficiency, because they are still embracing SOHC for most of their engines (Also still being able to compete with most DOHC designs) and the disregard for a long driveshaft. Let's face it, the S2000 loss a lot of hp to the wheels on the dyno compared to all of the trans-axle cars Honda makes. The NSX is also a prime example. A "270 hp" car putting down average 240 whp is very efficient.

I kind of respect the uncompromising stance for not switching to the "less efficient" longitudinal mounted engines/tranny design, even though the general public reveres the FR setup. Like I said, if they want to really push the envelop while maintaining efficiency, develop mid-engine sedans. It would definitely introduce an exotic factor to their premium lineup and still maintain their stance. That would be The revolutionary step, but I guess they are hoping the SH-AWD will alleviate the disdained stigma.

 

[liftcontrol]

You guys seen this yet? Finally the RLX Hybrid...

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/01/acura-rlx-sport-hybrid-sh-awd-la-auto-show-reveal/

 

[nsxtasy]

Let's face it, the S2000 loss a lot of hp to the wheels on the dyno compared to all of the trans-axle cars Honda makes. The NSX is also a prime example. A "270 hp" car putting down average 240 whp is very efficient.

I don't understand this; it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. The first two sentences seem to claim that the NSX (and S2000) lose/lost (loss?) a lot of horsepower between the crank and the wheels, so that they are INefficient, but the last sentence states that the typical NSX drivetrain loss of 11 percent is very efficient. So which is it?

 

[N Spec]

No I was stating that the S2000 is essentially the only Honda car that has typical drivetrain loss whereas all other Hondas along with the NSX is very efficient because of the transaxle design. I was typing in a rush so maybe I mistyped something to make it seem inconsistent with my thoughts.

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O I see now. The "ALSO" with the NSX statement. I meant it in the sense that even though the NSX is RWD, it's still very efficient at power delivery thanks to the transaxle design. I was rushing and see how they could be miscobstruded.

To give some context, the SW20 MR2 cars are setup the same way as the NSX albeit power is from a 4 cylinder. Rated hp for US turbo model is 200. Average dyno for a very healthy stock car is 160 whp, so they fall into the typical 20% loss. Honda must be doing something right with their transaxles or they are seriously underating their engines.

 

[JD Cross]

They seem to really favor simplicity and efficiency, because they are still embracing SOHC for most of their engines (Also still being able to compete with most DOHC designs) and the disregard for a long driveshaft. . The NSX is also a prime example. A "270 hp" car putting down average 240 whp is very efficient.

I have a couple of questions.
You mention SOHC compared to DOHC. Is the issue about how many cams or how many valves. For standard street engines isn't the engine's ability to breath based on the valve area not the method used to actuate the valves?
Where did you get the 240 rwhp figure for a stock 3.0L NSX?

 

[WingZ]

No matter how great the next NSX turns out to be, there is a psychological barrier to HONDA or any Japanese car, when it comes to pricing that only Ferrari and to a lesser extent Porsche can transgress. The LFA was a limited production car and it's price of around $400k was still ridiculous and at that price it had to be limited production. There are unused and unsold examples of that car still sitting at Lexus Dealerships. There are at least two 2012 models still available in Houston if someone is interested

I feel that for the next NSX , around $130k will be the upper limit for three good reasons, among others.

1. The GT3 is a superb and realistically priced ($130k) car [unlike the 458 Italia] and it has the name and "prestige" of being a P car and....it is a GT3.
2. The GTR, even though it has the negatives we all know about, is a fantastic performance machine and no matter what else, it is still a relative bargain at around $110k.
3. It is not a limited production car and HONDA actually wants to sell as many as they can, if they can. Pricing has therefore got to be reasonable enough to not turn potential buyers away towards GTR, Carrera2/4S , GT3 etc.

1. Regular NSX commanding 911 performance variant price ...seriously?
2. GTRs brand new are selling at under sticker so very much a bargain. Of course they've been out for several years and the 2015 is supposed to have a new drive train.

 

[N Spec]

I have a couple of questions.
You mention SOHC compared to DOHC. Is the issue about how many cams or how many valves. For standard street engines isn't the engine's ability to breath based on the valve area not the method used to actuate the valves?
Where did you get the 240 rwhp figure for a stock 3.0L NSX?

When the competitors make the pitch as to why buy Nissan, Toyota, etc. over Honda, they will take the stance that SOHC is not sophisticated, out-dated and makes less hp compared to DOHC to undercut Honda in the engine department. This was true with say, the feeble 1998 Accord 3.0 SOHC V6, but not so much anymore with the next and current iterations of Accords for example.

The single cam in theory should have less odds of failing over time compared to the double cam, along with some weight and money savings perks. The con is that the engine is not as rev happy/smooth as the DOHC, but most buyers don't race or super rev their cars so why would the majority truly ever need DOHC if the power they will usually need is available in low end torque? However, it's worth noting from my experience that the latest Accord feels more at home in the higher revs than the DOHC Toyota and Nissan still. Honda basically is the only company that still uses SOHC in mass produced engines along with some other quirky/simplistic approaches, so maybe they just likes to be different or not run with the masses. They certainly have an interesting view on the market.

I've collected numerous dyno sheets posted up here and online for the NSX and many other cars as I try to stay in the loop for my interests. I also like to see how the lines play out as I think it tells a lot about a car or the manufacturer, even if it's just one dimension. 240 whp is the average median as some are 235 and some are 245 for the NSX. It's also dyno dependent of course, but those are the normal numbers. Either way, even at a ~40 hp lost, that is no where near the 20% mark for a 270 hp rated engine. AP1 S2000 dynos are between 195-210 whp. They seem to vary in broader spreads than the NSX.

 

[WingZ]

When the competitors make the pitch as to why buy Nissan, Toyota, etc. over Honda, they will take the stance that SOHC is not sophisticated, out-dated and makes less hp compared to DOHC to undercut Honda in the engine department. This was true with say, the feeble 1998 Accord 3.0 SOHC V6, but not so much anymore with the next and current iterations of Accords for example.

The single cam in theory should have less odds of failing over time compared to the double cam, along with some weight and money savings perks. The con is that the engine is not as rev happy/smooth as the DOHC, but most buyers don't race or super rev their cars so why would the majority truly ever need DOHC if the power they will usually need is available in low end torque? However, it's worth noting from my experience that the latest Accord feels more at home in the higher revs than the DOHC Toyota and Nissan still. Honda basically is the only company that still uses SOHC in mass produced engines along with some other quirky/simplistic approaches, so maybe they just likes to be different or not run with the masses. They certainly have an interesting view on the market.

I've collected numerous dyno sheets posted up here and online for the NSX and many other cars as I try to stay in the loop for my interests. I also like to see how the lines play out as I think it tells a lot about a car or the manufacturer, even if it's just one dimension. 240 whp is the average median as some are 235 and some are 245 for the NSX. It's also dyno dependent of course, but those are the normal numbers. Either way, even at a ~40 hp lost, that is no where near the 20% mark for a 270 hp rated engine. AP1 S2000 dynos are between 195-210 whp. They seem to vary in broader spreads than the NSX.

Super quick sidebar. What's the AP2 avg? Thanks!

 

[N Spec]

Super quick sidebar. What's the AP2 avg? Thanks!

I've seen them hit almost 220 whp (claims stock and dyno dependent) but closer to ~205ish and even ~190. They usually dyno ~10 hp more than the AP1 it seems. AP1 responds better to mods like C30A NSX also. Gains on the AP2 from boltons are very minimal.

 

[WingZ]

I've seen them hit almost 220 whp (claims stock and dyno dependent) but closer to ~205ish and even ~190. They usually dyno ~10 hp more than the AP1 it seems. AP1 responds better to mods like C30A NSX also. Gains on the AP2 from boltons are very minimal.

Thanks!

 

[JD Cross]

The single cam in theory should have less odds of failing over time compared to the double cam, along with some weight and money savings perks. The con is that the engine is not as rev happy/smooth as the DOHC, but most buyers don't race or super rev their cars so why would the majority truly ever need DOHC if the power they will usually need is available in low end torque? However, it's worth noting from my experience that the latest Accord feels more at home in the higher revs than the DOHC Toyota and Nissan still. Honda basically is the only company that still uses SOHC in mass produced engines along with some other quirky/simplistic approaches, so maybe they just likes to be different or not run with the masses. They certainly have an interesting view on the market.

I've collected numerous dyno sheets posted up here and online for the NSX and many other cars as I try to stay in the loop for my interests. I also like to see how the lines play out as I think it tells a lot about a car or the manufacturer, even if it's just one dimension. 240 whp is the average median as some are 235 and some are 245 for the NSX. It's also dyno dependent of course, but those are the normal numbers. Either way, even at a ~40 hp lost, that is no where near the 20% mark for a 270 hp rated engine. AP1 S2000 dynos are between 195-210 whp. They seem to vary in broader spreads than the NSX.

Honda can build any type of engine as well as any other manufacturer today. I'd suggest the reason they are using their SOHC setup in their V6 engines at the moment is they're a long stroke small bore configuration. The 3.5 L is 89 x 93mm and the 3.7L is 90 x 96mm. These are not high rev configurations so they don't need the complexity, cost and weight of a DOHC design. I'd think most Honda buyers for their current vehicle line-up are looking for reliability, mileage, build quality etc. I would think if Honda thought, for marketing reasons, they had to be able to say they are using DOHC design then they would build DOHC engines.

For the NSX I think we can assume they would be building a higher revving engine. I'd expect they'll come out with a short stroke large bore capable of say 9k rpm before piston speeds reach critical levels and affect reliability. Look at the 458 and GT3 engine configuration and you'll see short stroke design. The valve actuation would be one suitable for the higher revs so we could also expect DOHC. As far as cam/valve timing we don't know if they have something better than VTEC but if they do we'll soon find out.

In any event the big TBA for me is what engine configuration they will use. Some posters keep talking Honda using their existing J35 in the new NSX. If that's the case we'll have a lower revving engine that won't make the hp per liter numbers the others have.

I asked Ted Klaus this question specifically and his answer was " stay tuned". He did not confirm the engine size nor whether it will be a 60 or 90 degree block.
Everything we read is guesswork at this point.

I am hoping his comment means a new short stroke engine design with the latest good stuff that Honda has.

As far as rwhp I believe the industry standard for drivetrain power loss is 15 %. This would put a stock C30 engine at about 230 rwhp.
You suggest the average median is 240 hp. Do you mean the average hp or median hp of the data you have?
240 hp is an 11 % driveline loss - 25 % less than industry standard.
I'm not suggesting some dyno runs don't show 240 hp but one has to the judge the reasonableness of these numbers.
And 245 hp is 40% less than the standard which would have everyone one in the industry copying Honda design and lube specs of their 25 year old C30 layout.

 

[N Spec]

Honda can build any type of engine as well as any other manufacturer today. I'd suggest the reason they are using their SOHC setup in their V6 engines at the moment is they're a long stroke small bore configuration. The 3.5 L is 89 x 93mm and the 3.7L is 90 x 96mm. These are not high rev configurations so they don't need the complexity, cost and weight of a DOHC design. I'd think most Honda buyers for their current vehicle line-up are looking for reliability, mileage, build quality etc. I would think if Honda thought, for marketing reasons, they had to be able to say they are using DOHC design then they would build DOHC engines.

For the NSX I think we can assume they would be building a higher revving engine. I'd expect they'll come out with a short stroke large bore capable of say 9k rpm before piston speeds reach critical levels and affect reliability. Look at the 458 and GT3 engine configuration and you'll see short stroke design. The valve actuation would be one suitable for the higher revs so we could also expect DOHC. As far as cam/valve timing we don't know if they have something better than VTEC but if they do we'll soon find out.

In any event the big TBA for me is what engine configuration they will use. Some posters keep talking Honda using their existing J35 in the new NSX. If that's the case we'll have a lower revving engine that won't make the hp per liter numbers the others have.

I asked Ted Klaus this question specifically and his answer was " stay tuned". He did not confirm the engine size nor whether it will be a 60 or 90 degree block.
Everything we read is guesswork at this point.

I am hoping his comment means a new short stroke engine design with the latest good stuff that Honda has.

I was a bit disappointed that technically there was no new info about the NSX presented. From what I gather, TD basically said the range was open to any possibility by not confirming the specs other than V6. So his appearance was more for reassurance and publicity. The newest info we have so far is from the RLX SH-AWD as it gives some insight, but only to the emotors capacity.

I agree with you that everything is speculation at this point and I hope they will go with a 9k revved engine to compete with Porsche and Ferrari in that arena. I don't think Honda will go SOHC for the new NSX. I was just stating that they tend to be set on SOHC and trans-axles so perhaps they should make mid-engine sedans for their Acura lineup.

As far as rwhp I believe the industry standard for drivetrain power loss is 15 %. This would put a stock C30 engine at about 230 rwhp.
You suggest the average median is 240 hp. Do you mean the average hp or median hp of the data you have?
240 hp is an 11 % driveline loss - 25 % less than industry standard.
I'm not suggesting some dyno runs don't show 240 hp but one has to the judge the reasonableness of these numbers.
And 245 hp is 40% less than the standard which would have everyone one in the industry copying Honda design and lube specs of their 25 year old C30 layout.

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/images/NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf

That's a good collection of samples for what to expect for stock and modded 3.0 and 3.2. You can see that the few C30A that dip into 230whp were having trouble on the dyno with inconsistent/erratic curves, which are signs of malfunctioning engine/powertrain or perhaps traction/transfer issues at the very least. The other C30As were easily breaking 240 whp. The NSX and many other Honda cars usually, if not always dyno better than 15%. The C32B is actually a better example as I suppose they have less of a chance of being extremely abused and beaten. I rarely see any dip under 260 whp and a few as high as 280 whp!

 

[WingZ]

C32B is a strong performer which ticks me off they always use 91-93 against newer car comparisons. Newer models would give a much better showing