HP vs. Handling, looking for input

[flyeyes]

I'm at a crossroads in building on my car, and I'm torn as to which route to take. I don't drag race my car, but do plan to start taking it to the circle/road course track. I also do alot of back road driving.

My dilema is picking between the below. They total just a few hundred shy of each other, so it's hard to pick.

Headers

or

NSX-R chassis bars, sway bars, rear strut bar, and slotted rotors

What I have currently that makes these my choices are:

Drivetrain: Intake, exhaust, upgraded clutch, and upgraded ECU

Suspension: H&R springs (2" drop)

I know this isn't all too impressive:redface: but I figure it's a decent start for my goal.
Which is to have a streetable car that is still alot of fun at the track and not get left behind.

-Thanks in advance!:smile:

 

[redsuns3838]

I don't drag race my car, but do plan to start taking it to the circle/road course track.

If you havent gone to the track yet, id say hold off on everything (unless you need new rotors) and take it to the track first. Then decide what your lacking in. Just what I would do...

 

[EK4 hatchback]

I'm at a crossroads in building on my car, and I'm torn as to which route to take. I don't drag race my car, but do plan to start taking it to the circle/road course track. I also do alot of back road driving.

My dilema is picking between the below. They total just a few hundred shy of each other, so it's hard to pick.

Headers

or

NSX-R chassis bars, sway bars, rear strut bar, and slotted rotors

What I have currently that makes these my choices are:

Drivetrain: Intake, exhaust, upgraded clutch, and upgraded ECU

Suspension: H&R springs (2" drop)

I know this isn't all too impressive:redface: but I figure it's a decent start for my goal.
Which is to have a streetable car that is still alot of fun at the track and not get left behind.

-Thanks in advance!:smile:

I think the H&R spring (2" drop) really is too much for the car. The rear camber with this spring is +3.8 on my X. I went back to stock spring with bilstein on lower setting. It gives the car about 1" drop.

Keno

 

[Diablo360]

If you're going to track the car or at least want the look then I suggest checking out the unnofficial weight reduction thread a few posts down below. My car is now approaching the 2600lb mark, and is significantly faster and handles better than when I bought it.

Going back to your question, You'll end up doing both of those groups of mods, EVENTUALLY...... So choose the one that you want first. I have an NA1 coupe as you probably do, and if I could go back in time i'd do exhaust and headers FIRST, as they free up a lot of power in an NA1. Also if you could easily lighten your car by a couple hundred pounds without spending a penny! I'm about to add the Type S-Zero (not the normal type s) suspension, nsx-r chassis bars, and the Dali hotchip..... I'm going to be starting a thread soon with pics, explanations, etc......

If I were you i'd email Mark at Dali Racing and see if he has a pair of brushed DC Headers. I bought mine a few months ago for $879 and I love em! You may even have some leftover $$ to buy those chassis bars depending on whether or not you were going to buy more expensive headers.....?

 

[Diablo360]

I think the H&R spring (2" drop) really is too much for the car. The rear camber with this spring is +3.8 on my X. I went back to stock spring with bilstein on lower setting. It gives the car about 1" drop.

Keno

This is correct! Although as a side note i'd avoid just adding the lowering springs with stock shocks, or even with bilstein/koni, as they are not very "track worthy". My Eibach/stock spring setup is already feeling really sloppy after only 4 months of having it on. H&R's run what, $300-$400? just save up and buy a good pair of used coilovers for a grand or so....

 

[nsxsupra]

I would go exhaust and suspension mods first for the backroad driving. Exhaust will give you nice power gain + sound.

Weight reduction is also very important.

 

[asylum]

1. Alignement. With the 2'' drop, I think your are at more than -3 ° of camber rear, less front. Try to go to - 1.5 ° to - 2.5 ° (I don't think you can go less than -1.5 rear with that drop), front and rear ~ equal. Verify the toe : a little bit negative (out) front (~ - 0.05 ° each side -> 0.10 ° total), alittle bit positive rear (in) rear (+ 0.05 ° each side). This is a common basic setup.

2. Type R chassis bars

3. Pads + brake fluid

4. Track your car again and again

...

Then decide if you need a front (rear ?) aftermarket sway bar.

 

[nsxtasy]

If you havent gone to the track yet, id say hold off on everything (unless you need new rotors) and take it to the track first. Then decide what your lacking in.

 

[WingZ]

You should get comfortable with the car first. Since your a novice the mods won't do you any good anyway as you won't be driving the car to it's full potential. A good driver is the best mod you can get for your car:biggrin:

Once you become a good driver the first mod you'll want to do are brakes:wink:

 

[Alan C.]

The first thing you want to do is decide whether or not you can afford to write off the car at the track or eat a heavy repair bill. If the answer is no then don't try to set a track record on your first outing. Sounds so simple but some find out the hard way.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

I also agreed with that.

All tracks are different, especially the one you are planning to go are ovals. Depends on the track layout, your first mod probably will be an accusump or at least a oil pan trap that titanium dave or SOS offering...

I also agreed with the suspension. Unfortunately, you already installed the spring, so you won't be able to aviod the labor... At this point, Bilstein or Koni shocks with your H&R will give you better ride with street driving. NSX-R or type S supensions , Aftermarket coil over kits will give you better track performance.

Regarding the brakes, a good set of brake pads and a good bleeding of high performance brake fluid (motul, ATE, castrol) should be good enough for your first time on track.

 

[Wick]

Handling and braking mods will provide more payback at the track and on twisty backroads than header or most other engine mods. So, I'd start there.

But, as others have said, you need to get a few track days under your belt to improve your driving skills, get some experience, and, to get a 'baseline' on your car, i.e., how in feels, performs, at the track... before making any mods to it.

You will quickly learn that you'll be giving the "point-by" to cars with a lot less HP until you learn to drive your car properly (at the track)... and even after that, you'll find that the cars with the best suspension, brakes, and drivers will always be passing by the cars who's primary mods are for big HP!

-Wick

 

[Impetus]

yea I'd agree with above comments. go try her out on the track first. Then you'll know what you need.

think power is hard to extract given you arleady have all basic mods.

First thing that comes to mind looking at your mod list is set of nice coilovers... drop in springs just dont cut it.

May be final gear and clutch for more juice.

LSD... and steal brake lines, rotors if yours are tired for track prep...

 

[NSXGMS]

...and steal brake lines, rotors if yours are tired for track prep...

That will certainly reduce the cost. :biggrin: :tongue: :tongue:

Seriously, go to the track. If it's not handling as crisply as you want it to put the money there. If the handling seems good to you, get the headers.

I also agree--a 2.0" drop is pretty extreme. Are you still aligned within spec? I would not use aftermarket springs with OEM shocks generally. Type-R sway, chassis bars are great and I'd do Zanardi springs over Bilsteins. Should get you a 1.375"+ drop and it's a great, cheap way to go.

 

[flyeyes]

So far my plans are to get ready to go to the track in March. I agree with what most people have replied with that I need to get some track time in a controlled enviornment. I have opps to drive my car hard on backroads and stretches of interstate that I have lived on all my life. So that has given me a chance to notice things on the car that I wanted to upgrade.

One of my largest concerns so far, is the brakes. I noticed the car does not stop as quickly as I'd like it to. Handling wise, the suspension seems to almost "push" me through turns. I feel good coming into and out of turns, but it seems the car wants to fight itself to keep the tires from braking traction.

As for HP, seems like it could have a little more power in 3rd and 4th gear ranges.

I really try to take every thing that I learn and experiment with it. So thank you to all for your input.

 

[Zanardi 50]

FWIW, I think you should get the stock brake pads replaced with top shelf track pads ("Red Stuffs" comes to mind) and shod your baby with semi-slicks like Yoko A048's RIGHT NOW before you head out to the track. It's not terribly expensive and can be done in almost no time. Plus you get the peace of mind of reduced chances of brake fade, as it occurs frequently under repeated hard-braking under track conditions.

JMHO of course.

Have fun!

-Bill

 

[flyeyes]

I have a correction on some of my parts, but also needed to add some info on what my car has.

H&R Springs (1.5" drop)
BLITZ 03, 17"(Front)/18"(Rear) 3 piece wheels
BF Goodrich G-Force tires
EXEDY Stage 4 clutch

The reason for the high end clutch is because I plan to eventually super charge my car.

 

[NSXGMS]

So far my plans are to get ready to go to the track in March. I agree with what most people have replied with that I need to get some track time in a controlled enviornment. I have opps to drive my car hard on backroads and stretches of interstate that I have lived on all my life. So that has given me a chance to notice things on the car that I wanted to upgrade.

One of my largest concerns so far, is the brakes. I noticed the car does not stop as quickly as I'd like it to. Handling wise, the suspension seems to almost "push" me through turns. I feel good coming into and out of turns, but it seems the car wants to fight itself to keep the tires from braking traction.

As for HP, seems like it could have a little more power in 3rd and 4th gear ranges.

I really try to take every thing that I learn and experiment with it. So thank you to all for your input.

I'm surprised you're so disappointed with stock braking. With a stock motor the stock braking should be just fine for slowing the car.

The stock calipers on the NSX are quite good and rarely need replacement/upgrading on even a heavily tracked car. I would definitely recommend pad replacement with a good quality race pad like Cobalt or Project Mu, although they will dust more than OEM and may be a little noisy on the street.

You could also consider upgrading to a Dali/Powerslot slotted rotor and better tires. These will also improve braking efficiency. I recommend Goodyear GS-D3 tires for the street and Falken Azenis 615-RT for the track (or R-comps).

Also, start using Motul or ATE brake fluid. It will raise the boiling point of the fluid helping to keep air out of the system. Essential on the track.

 

[nsxtasy]

I'm surprised you're so disappointed with stock braking. With a stock motor the stock braking should be just fine for slowing the car.

Very true. But that assumes stock brake pads and stock tires, and it sounds like he probably doesn't have either one.

You didn't mention what kind of brake pads you have, but it's possible the prior owner just bought crappy brake pads at the corner auto parts store. The stock brake pads are very good, and you can get even better aftermarket ones like the Cobalt Friction GT Sport or the Hawk HP Plus, just to name two that are designed for street use and also occasional light track use.

As to tires, your brakes can only stop the car as well as your tires. You mentioned BFG g-Force tires. BFG uses the g-Force name on a lot of its tires, including the g-Force Sport, an absolutely CRAPPY tire; the g-Force T/A KDW, an okay performing (but overpriced) budget performance tire, and the g-Force T/A KD, which offers terrific performance on dry pavement (but is very high in price). IMHO the KD is better than the stock OEM tires, and the other two are worse. I also agree with NSXGMS's suggestion of the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 or Falken Azenis RT-615.

It sounds to me like you're not happy with your car's braking because it has WORSE brake pads than stock and WORSE tires than stock. Try upgrading these components to stock or better before you even think about replacing the calipers.

 

[Big_D]

I would go for the headers...but I don't track my car.

 

[flyeyes]

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention that the car does have some type of after market ceramic brake pads currently. I'm not sure of the make because I haven't looked at them. They still have alot of life to them, but that really doesn't matter I guess if they aren't doing what they were meant to do.
But my tires seem pretty good I think. I haven't any issues with them that I'm aware of as far as failing me or under performing. But I will most definetly check on the pads, and the tires. I have been considering changing to Hawk pads anyway.:biggrin:

 

[NSXGMS]

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention that the car does have some type of after market ceramic brake pads currently. I'm not sure of the make because I haven't looked at them. They still have alot of life to them, but that really doesn't matter I guess if they aren't doing what they were meant to do.
But my tires seem pretty good I think. I haven't any issues with them that I'm aware of as far as failing me or under performing. But I will most definetly check on the pads, and the tires. I have been considering changing to Hawk pads anyway.:biggrin:

It's likely that your BFG g-Force tires are not one of the better performing versions and it's even more likely that those brake pads you have are first-rate crapola and are the root of most of your braking disappointment.

Hawk pads perform very well but dust a lot. I strongly recommend Project Mu. Cobalt Friction is a popular choice as well but I have been told they dust more than the Project Mu. Plus, the Project Mu is a cool turquoise color. :biggrin:

I'd also strongly recommend Goodyear F1 GS-D3 tires for a great dry and good wet performing tire with above average tread life at a great price. Absolutely the best value for an all-street tire available today.

 

[docjohn]

Your blitz type 03 wheels are awsome looking(imho) but they are heavy,not what you want for a track/sport drivers' car,show time or cruising ,now thats a different story!

 

[Diablo360]

Also agreed with NSXGMS, get the goodyear f1's, they are great tires. Also get the type R suspension, used or new, you won't be sorry.