Howard Dean Concession Speech...............One of the funniest things I have seen!

[Tom Larkins]

Re: Mistakes, Bush and the left

Bad grammar or not, he did lie to American people about the WMA.

We don't know that yet, and wasn't a group by the name of Al Queda doing good deeds for humanity there whom had a vested enterest in WMD.

His daddy did say "read my lips, no new taxes" and than did exactly the opposite

Correct, and it cost him his job which he desreved to lose. Foolish of him to do that IMO.

and last but not least he did graduate from top university with a C- average. Those are the facts

Since when do grades make the man. We place to much on book smarts at times. I know some doctors that don't know how to put air in tires. I flunked out of college too, but I manage to be able to account for 5-6 mil a week in paper!

Some more facts for you to ponder: our national debt: 6 trillion
Debt will always be with the US, no matter what party is in office.

3 million jobs lost since he took over,
We have found out that the current so called slow down in the job market started w/Clinton, now we seemed to be turning the corner. Time will tell.

over 500 Gis dead in Iraq, and the list goes

Unfortunate, but freedom has never been free and the world isn't what it was. I do feeler safer knowing he is gone. This isn't drive-thru service, things don't take overnite.

As far as WMD, funny how N. Korea and our ol pal Kadafi have been starting to come around the table since they have seen whats been going on. Kadafi himself said he feared the same fate of Iraq if his country wasn't compliant.

May I have some soup please!!!

 

[Jimbo]

I don't know what WMA's are...but it's entirely possible that if no WMDs are found and no trace of any WMD programs are found that our intelligence organizations simply screwed up. I'd certainly believe that before I would believe that Bush lied to us.

In any case, the Iraqis and the world are much better off today.

 

[TomR1999]

I agree with jimbo, the world is better off without Saddam.

 

[Ennesssex]

I also agree with Jimbo and Tom that this world is better off without Saddam. However, where do you draw the line on which dictators to remove or not? Do we really want to act as a police force for the ENTIRE world? I don't know the answers to those questions but at times I wonder if it wasn't better if we just kept to ourselves sometimes. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Jimbo]

How about just those dictators who kill, torture and rape thousands of people.

Or those dictators who actively plan to kill our president?

Or dicatators who invade their neighboring countries?

Or dictators who use chemical weapons against innocent civilians?

That might be a good start.

Ennesssex, the very same questions you raise were raised during Adoph Hitler's time too.

 

[Ennesssex]

You can also add to that list,

1. Or when a country can provide an alternate oil source for U.S. consumption and be quite profitable for us by taking it over.

2. Or when the economy is sagging and a boost is needed, war seems to be a real convenient excuse & answer.

Jimbo, although your reasons why a dictator should be removed are more idealistic and plausible, my reasons don't seem so far fetched either IMO. I completely agree that under the reasons you provided, a dictator should be removed. However, in an example "Bosnia", the U.S. did not get involved until much after the war atrocities (Serbs commiting genocide of Muslims in that area) were committed. The difference between Bosnia and Iraq is the OIL. I'm sure their are more differences than oil but that IMO is the key difference.

 

[saxonsaxon]

Dictators

How about just those dictators who kill, torture and rape thousands of people.

Or those dictators who actively plan to kill our president?

Or dicatators who invade their neighboring countries?

Or dictators who use chemical weapons against innocent civilians?

That might be a good start.

Ennesssex, the very same questions you raise were raised during Adoph Hitler's time too.

Well we are keeping several hundred people in Guantanamo without any access to legal counsel totally violating their rights under our laws as well as under international laws. Many dictators who kill, torture and rape thousands of people have been actively supported by our government. Where do you think Hussein was getting his arms ? Santa ? He did gas his own people and what did we do ? Sold him more weapons. Who do you think was supporting and training terrorists in Afghanistan? We were.

As for people trying to kill our president. Hey what do you think the CIA has been trying to do to Castro since 1959????? It is Ok when we try to do but it is not when others try??? Somehow it does not bother you when our government is doing it? Btw there coutless other examples of CIA trying to eliminate heads of states of other countries.

As for invading other countries let me see just in last 30 years: Outright invasion:
Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Iraq I, Iraq II. All without UN approval and against international law.

As for using chemical weapons: does agent orange mean anything to you???? Ask any Vietnam vet or anybody from south east Asia what it is or how it works.

You are a perfect example of our "left" media and the way it informs our citizens. Sad but true. I suggest you get any book by Parenti, or Chomsky to see what is going on.

 

[KGP]

Cmon guys, let's take it easy. I'd hate to see political emotions get in the way of our community of NSX knowledge. Lord knows I'd like to respond to some of the posts, but I will refrain.

 

[saxonsaxon]

Re: Re: Mistakes, Bush and the left

We don't know that yet, and wasn't a group by the name of Al Queda doing good deeds for humanity there whom had a vested enterest in WMD.

[
and last but not least he did graduate from top university with a C- average. Those are the facts

Since when do grades make the man. We place to much on book smarts at times. I know some doctors that don't know how to put air in tires. I flunked out of college too, but I manage to be able to account for 5-6 mil a week in paper!

Some more facts for you to ponder: our national debt: 6 trillion
Debt will always be with the US, no matter what party is in office.

3 million jobs lost since he took over,
We have found out that the current so called slow down in the job market started w/Clinton, now we seemed to be turning the corner. Time will tell.

over 500 Gis dead in Iraq, and the list goes

Unfortunate, but freedom has never been free and the world isn't what it was. I do feeler safer knowing he is gone. This isn't drive-thru service, things don't take overnite.


____________________________________________
Hussein did not possess any WMD, it is a FACT. We have been in Iraq for close to a year and nothing has been presented that Hussein has WMD.

Grades do not make the man. But I would like my President to be able to speak and make sense at the same time. His is where he is not becuase he is smart (streeet or otherwise). He was not a good businessman and he was not very good in school. Once again those are facts.

As for debt. Debt has not always been with us. It has baloomed under Reagan from less than 1 trillion to cclose to 6 trillion now. Some debt can be beneficial but not when it is so huge and is being spent on things that our society could live without. There must be a reason why dollar has lost close to 50% against Euro since George II tookover.

freedom is not free????? Where do you get these slogans??? Crayons BoX? It is easy to sacrifice others and speak of freedom when you are in your cozy house sitting by the fire. BTW do you really think we are there for freedom and democracy?????? If you do I have not one but two bridges for sale (in the name of freedom)! HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[TomR1999]

Dito to Jimbo. This is just a friendly online heated argument. All good fun.

 

[saxonsaxon]

America

Cmon guys, let's take it easy. I'd hate to see political emotions get in the way of our community of NSX knowledge. Lord knows I'd like to respond to some of the posts, but I will refrain.

Isn't our country about exchanging ideas. It is all in good spirit. No hard feelings. We are about to have presidential election in this country so a little bit of politics will not hurt anybody.

 

[Ennesssex]

I agree with Tom again...

This is just a friendly online heated argument. All good fun.

I don't think there is nothing wrong with sharing different views as long as we refrain from attacking each other. This is treading lightly right?

 

[KGP]

Re: America

Isn't our country about exchanging ideas.

Indeed it is, but this forum is not our country. Rules apply, but it's surely not my call. Just my attempt to keep the kettle from boiling.

It is all in good spirit. No hard feelings.

Glad to hear that.

 

[saxonsaxon]

America

That is what makes America the best place to live. It's freedom and tolarence.

 

[Jimbo]

saxon,

Where do you think Hussein was getting his arms ? Santa ?

Would that be France and Russia?

He did gas his own people and what did we do ? Sold him more weapons.

I don't think that's true. Are you saying that after SH gassed the Kurds that we sold him more weapons?

As for people trying to kill our president. Hey what do you think the CIA has been trying to do to Castro since 1959?

So, does that mean because of something that happened nearly 50 years ago that forever more we're not to get annoyed if someone tries to kill a US leader? Weird logic.

As for invading other countries let me see just in last 30 years: Outright invasion: Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Iraq I, Iraq II. All without UN approval and against international law.

Outright invasion? Really? I guess you're also upset that we "invaded" Germany and Japan in the 1940s too.

Oh, BTW did Ho Chi Minh and Saddam Hussein have international law on their side when they invaded their neighbors? Did international law support Bernard Coard when he was responsible for killing hundreds of Grenadians? And I'm sure that when Noriega declared war on the USA and started killing Americans, international law was clearly on his side.

As for using chemical weapons: does agent orange mean anything to you???? Ask any Vietnam vet or anybody from south east Asia what it is or how it works.

What's your point? Are you really saying that because the US once used a defoliant that had nasty side-effects that we can never, ever criticize or take action against anyone who uses chemical weapons with the express intent (as opposted to the unintended side-effect) of killing?

You are a perfect example of our "left" media and the way it informs our citizens. Sad but true. I suggest you get any book by Parenti, or Chomsky to see what is going on.

PS: I'm happy to debate you, but try not to be so condescending. You have no idea of my background or what writers I've read or not. I've read Chomsky, Parenti, Zinn, Michael Moore and even Che Guevara and Mumia Abu Jamal. I routinely read people who I disagree (or have a total lack of respect for) with.

PPS: I don't think Parenti would approve of anyone owning an NSX.

 

[saxonsaxon]

Logic

saxon,



Would that be France and Russia?



I don't think that's true. Are you saying that after SH gassed the Kurds that we sold him more weapons?



So, does that mean because of something that happened nearly 50 years ago that forever more we're not to get annoyed if someone tries to kill a US leader? Weird logic.



Outright invasion? Really? I guess you're also upset that we "invaded" Germany and Japan in the 1940s too.

Oh, BTW did Ho Chi Minh and Saddam Hussein have international law on their side when they invaded their neighbors? Did international law support Bernard Coard when he was responsible for killing hundreds of Grenadians? And I'm sure that when Noriega declared war on the USA and started killing Americans, international law was clearly on his side.





What's your point? Are you really saying that because the US once used a defoliant that had nasty side-effects that we can never, ever criticize or take action against anyone who uses chemical weapons with the express intent (as opposted to the unintended side-effect) of killing?



PS: I'm happy to debate you, but try not to be so condescending. You have no idea of my background or what writers I've read or not. I've read Chomsky, Parenti, Zinn, Michael Moore and even Che Guevara and Mumia Abu Jamal. I routinely read people who I disagree (or have a total lack of respect for) with.

PPS: I don't think Parenti would approve of anyone owning an NSX.

_________________________________________________

We sold him weapons even after he gassed Kurds. He was our dear friend and we loved him for attacking Iran in the 80's. We had no problem dealing with him right up to the First Persian Gulf. It is only when he attacked Kuwait, he became the next Adolf. Yes, Russia and France were selling them weapons. After all AK47 is cheap and effective. However, since close to 80% of weapons worldwide is sold by the US I am sure we did sell him a lot of equipment. We certainly bought oil from him so that he could buy those weapons.

Btw. I like how you did not write about our "special relationship" with guys from Afghanistan. I guess even you see our "hand" in creating that monster.

As for Fidel Castro. 1959 was not 50 years ago and the there was more than one attempt on his life. I am glad that you do not go into details how a leading democracy who is against terrorism would engage in something like trying to kill a president of another country. I was not aware that it was OK to kill Castro 50 years ago but it is a big no no when it comes to other leaders of the world. Faulty logic to say the least.

I like the way you go into invading Japan and Germany and try to pass it a s a response to our invasion of Vietnam, bombing of Cambodia, Laos, North Vietnam, invasion of Granada, and Panama, not to mention IraqI amd Iraq II. The last time I check the reasons we entered the war was attadk on Hawaii by the Japanese and unrestricted submarine warfare by the Germans. How can you compare that to us going to Vietnam and killing 3 million people? maybe you are not aware but there is something like international law that does not allow outright aggression. Of course maybe you do believe that Vietnam was a threat to the US, Granada was ready to invade Florida and Panama under Noriega was going to fight the US.

As for SH and Noriega. No they did not have international law behind them and what they have done I condemn. However, that does not give a right to our country to disregard the law and do as we please. After all if a guy stole your beloved NSX, you would not have the right to go and burn his house, kill his children and raped his wife right????? You would call the police and let them hande the business. Well that is why we have UN and international law. Also remeber, the last time a major economic and military power (Nazi Germany) started to resolve conflicts by force it ended with 60 million dead (hint WWII). I do not want George II to think that it is Ok to disregard law and do as he pleases he is not the king!!!!!

As for chemical weapons. Nobody was crying when we were spraying agent orange in Vietnam. Why do you think we were doing it? To make the countryside look more colorful? BTW we do have chemical and biological weapons in our arsenal right now as of this moment and we have used it, so let's not point the finger at others. I guess when we do it it's ok, when HS does it it makes him an animal (after his attack on Kuwait not before). Don't you think we should as a leading democracy try to illustrate by example how to resolve conflicts???? So far we have used A bomb twice on innocent people, sprayed agent orange all over SE Asia, and attacked several countries illegaly. mAYBE THE SMALLER AND LESS POWERFUL COUNTRIES ARE JUST FOLLOWING OUR EXAMPLE?????

Yes Che would not approve of an NSX, he had bigger and better things to do. I once drove from NYC to Panama and back in an old 1973 Chrysler Newport with no reverse gear (stopped working in Guatemala). Did not have an NSX and did not need one to do it. Trust me it is not the car thatt makes the journey.

 

[Jimbo]

Who said anything about Che approving NSXs?

And with that...I'm exiting this discussion.

PS: Whew..it must be an awful burden for you to live in such a country.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Re: Re: Mistakes, Bush and the left

Hussein did not possess any WMD, it is a FACT. We have been in Iraq for close to a year and nothing has been presented that Hussein has WMD.

True. However, you fail to get the point that many others were fooled also. For example, both President and Senator Clinton were convinced that Saddam had WMDs. So was John Kerry. In fact, most of the members of Congress that received briefings over the years (note: before Bush was elected) thought that he had them, and that, further, he was a significant threat.

All of this talk about Bush lying...and creating an entire war over oil, etc. is revisionist. As revisionist as John Kerry now saying he voted to authorize war based on the thought that Bush wouldn't actually do it. (And this is as asinine a concept as Nixon's "secret" plan to get us out of Vietnam. lol.)

No, in the end, the only thing Bush can be accused of...whether it was ultimately right or wrong…is having guts to ACTUALLY do something about the threat that they ALL perceived in the first place.

 

[Tom Larkins]

I live in such a terrible country that I must go back to my crayon box ideas. Once again we see irrational emotion based claims that head off in tangents that cannot be logically debated b/c you can't follow or debate claims. I give up and should have known better.

May I be excussed, I would be better served writing one of the guys that works for me thats been called up to serve us in Iraq so I can sit by my fireplace all cozy!

Condescending doctrine on the other side w/o justification......but all in good fun right.............

 

[saxonsaxon]

facts speak for themselves

Hey whatever gets you through the day. Ity was fun educating you guys a little bit. Now you can't say "I did not know".