I am still suspect on this issue. If there was a safety issue, it could easily end up in the courts and be a recall type issue. At the bare minimum it's a risk that I do not think Honda would allow.
how to get around 300+ rwhp NA?
- Thread starter han0355
- Start date
I am still suspect on this issue. If there was a safety issue, it could easily end up in the courts and be a recall type issue. At the bare minimum it's a risk that I do not think Honda would allow.
1. Aftermarket ECU, which means pre 1995 car. Cannot adjust timing and fuel enough to safely go high HP.
2. Cams. Not sure what is still available, but increasing the amount of air/fuel mixture into the cylinder is important, whether NA or FI. Would recommend changing the stock valve springs at the same time.
3. Injectors. Stock injectors are running 95%+ duty cycle at max RPM's so larger injectors are needed to maintain stoichiometric(sp?) balance. Depending on age of car/engine, I would spend the money on a new fuel pump.
4. Lightened flywheel/clutch
5. Adjustable cam gears, balanced and blueprinted engine, and having someone who knows how to put it back together again with the new parts.
6. Really good tuner. Mine raised my output over 25 rwhp in less than an hour.
7. Throttle body, heads and intake are good enough stock.
This list should get you to 295-300 rwhp. It did on mine, with a stock air filter in the Comptech airbox. Some say the snorkel will net you another 5?
Stock brakes are fine, just get good fluid and flush like hell. Carbotech pads work great but make a fair amount of noise. KW would be my suspension of choice, unless you want to drop $5g plus on Motons or JRZ.
Use the stock 15/16 wheels or same size aftermarkets with really good rubber.
Remove anything you have not used in the car in the last 3 months. You will not miss it and lightness is next to Godliness!!
Sorry, but have to respectfully disagree. Have not had a spare in either NSX in almost ten years along with the removal of the TCS brain.
It is orange to remind the boneheads that it needs to be replaced by a real wheel and tire as soon as possible:biggrin:
GhettoRacer: I just realized who you are...welcome to the NSX club.
(Sorry for the OT)
(Sorry for the OT)
If you want to open up ur engine - High compression pistons in the 12:1 area plus cleaning up the ports and a 3 angle valve job should help.
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I think the "proper" sequence of events should be:
1. I/H/E
2. Final drive, clutch and flywheel
3. Full ECU tune
After that, you are now getting inside the motor:
4. ITBs
5. Adjustable cam gears
6. Cylinder head work
7. Cams
8. Increased compression (pistons) and/or stroking
1. I/H/E
2. Final drive, clutch and flywheel
3. Full ECU tune
After that, you are now getting inside the motor:
4. ITBs
5. Adjustable cam gears
6. Cylinder head work
7. Cams
8. Increased compression (pistons) and/or stroking
This is the best thread I have seen in years with respect to NA power. Thanks, Gary, for sharing your experience.
I like this thread.
Posting in it so I can come back to it later for reference and to participate.
This is very much along the lines of what I intend to do performance wise with my NSX (although I don't think it's possible to reach the 300 rwhp mark with what I'm planning to do).
Right now, everything is stock on my '92 besides:
- bypassed-ABS
- NA1 Type R wheels on Advan Neova AD08 tires
- re-surfaced stock rotors and stock pads
- some other small non-performance related things (i.e. alarm, cd changer, and SmartTenna)
Quick rundown of future plans:
- '00+ OEM exhaust system combination, '00 exhaust, '05 exhaust manifolds, '00+ test pipes (plan to wrap the exhaust manifolds and test pipes with either DEI's Titanium wrap or Thermo-Tec's Level 2 Copper wrap, which I still probably have 30+ feet of) (not sure if I will try to use the heat shields of the exhaust manifolds as well on top of the wrap, or leave them off for weight reduction, same goes for the heat shields on the exhaust) (anybody have input on the amount of weight that could be saved by not using the heatshields versus the importance of heat shielding, mostly in regards to the exhaust as the exhaust manifolds will be wrapped?) (also tempted to wrap the exhaust, including the the muffler canister, if feasible... although it might look ugly from behind, especially the muffler canister, unless I can re-install the heat shields over the wrap) (anybody have an idea if it would be bad to use the heat shields over exhaust wrap? would that cause too much heat build-up and stress the metal or harm the motor?)
- Downforce Air Intake Scoop with an UNI Dual-Stage Foam Filter in stock airbox
- Exedy Twin Plate Racing Clutch model no. HM012SD (which includes a lightweight flywheel and uses non-carbon, cerametallic discs)
- Power Slot Slotted Brake Rotors front and rear, Project Mu Teflon Brake Lines with Honda DOT-3 Brake Fluid, and Project Mu B-Spec or Type HC+ pads
- ideally NA2 Type R Coilovers, but that might might not be realistic, so not sure what kind of dampers/coilovers to use; NA2 Type R front Stabilizer Bar; NA2 Type R upper and lower Chassis Bars with the SoS end brackets; Okuyama Carbing Rear Shock Tower Brace; a solid front shock tower brace/bar
- ideally NSX Type R Recaros, but again might not be realistic, so maybe a comparable Recaro for weight reduction (regular Recaro would be in black, would only do red if Type R Recaros) (maybe only for the track also, as I do like the stock black leather seats)
- SoS Rapid Shift Knob - Electro Polished Stainless Steel
- realistic weight reduction without detracting from the original cars functionality (i.e. only removing the spare tire/holder/tool set for the track) (some extreme possibilites for weight reduction include removing spare tire/holder/tool set/ABS and TCS systems; ARC Titanium exhaust/test pipes and titanium headers; Type R Recaros; replacing all possible body panels with color-matched/wrapped OEM-style carbon fiber panels i.e. hood, fenders, doors, rear quarter panels, and trunk lid)
- Odyssey 680T battery with Dali Racing V.2 bracket
- tuning the stock ECU for best performance/fuel efficiency after the exhaust system/intake system/clutch upgrades (hopefully Mase Engineering will be able to assist me with this, if not AEM EMS since I'm not really sure about using the AEM F/IC on a '92 and not sure if the HKS F-CON V Pro works on the NSX, although HKS does make an AFR (Air Fuel Ratio Regulator) with two versions, one based on vehicles using a pressure sensor and the other on vehicles using an air flow meter)
- maybe upgrading the valvetrain in the future (camshafts, adjustable cam gears, valves, springs, retainers) to get the most out of the car without actually "taking apart" the motor (removing the heads)
I think that covers everything. So much for a quick rundown, lol.
Looking forward to people's feedback.
Sorry for the thread jack.....
Posting in it so I can come back to it later for reference and to participate.
This is very much along the lines of what I intend to do performance wise with my NSX (although I don't think it's possible to reach the 300 rwhp mark with what I'm planning to do).
Right now, everything is stock on my '92 besides:
- bypassed-ABS
- NA1 Type R wheels on Advan Neova AD08 tires
- re-surfaced stock rotors and stock pads
- some other small non-performance related things (i.e. alarm, cd changer, and SmartTenna)
Quick rundown of future plans:
- '00+ OEM exhaust system combination, '00 exhaust, '05 exhaust manifolds, '00+ test pipes (plan to wrap the exhaust manifolds and test pipes with either DEI's Titanium wrap or Thermo-Tec's Level 2 Copper wrap, which I still probably have 30+ feet of) (not sure if I will try to use the heat shields of the exhaust manifolds as well on top of the wrap, or leave them off for weight reduction, same goes for the heat shields on the exhaust) (anybody have input on the amount of weight that could be saved by not using the heatshields versus the importance of heat shielding, mostly in regards to the exhaust as the exhaust manifolds will be wrapped?) (also tempted to wrap the exhaust, including the the muffler canister, if feasible... although it might look ugly from behind, especially the muffler canister, unless I can re-install the heat shields over the wrap) (anybody have an idea if it would be bad to use the heat shields over exhaust wrap? would that cause too much heat build-up and stress the metal or harm the motor?)
- Downforce Air Intake Scoop with an UNI Dual-Stage Foam Filter in stock airbox
- Exedy Twin Plate Racing Clutch model no. HM012SD (which includes a lightweight flywheel and uses non-carbon, cerametallic discs)
- Power Slot Slotted Brake Rotors front and rear, Project Mu Teflon Brake Lines with Honda DOT-3 Brake Fluid, and Project Mu B-Spec or Type HC+ pads
- ideally NA2 Type R Coilovers, but that might might not be realistic, so not sure what kind of dampers/coilovers to use; NA2 Type R front Stabilizer Bar; NA2 Type R upper and lower Chassis Bars with the SoS end brackets; Okuyama Carbing Rear Shock Tower Brace; a solid front shock tower brace/bar
- ideally NSX Type R Recaros, but again might not be realistic, so maybe a comparable Recaro for weight reduction (regular Recaro would be in black, would only do red if Type R Recaros) (maybe only for the track also, as I do like the stock black leather seats)
- SoS Rapid Shift Knob - Electro Polished Stainless Steel
- realistic weight reduction without detracting from the original cars functionality (i.e. only removing the spare tire/holder/tool set for the track) (some extreme possibilites for weight reduction include removing spare tire/holder/tool set/ABS and TCS systems; ARC Titanium exhaust/test pipes and titanium headers; Type R Recaros; replacing all possible body panels with color-matched/wrapped OEM-style carbon fiber panels i.e. hood, fenders, doors, rear quarter panels, and trunk lid)
- Odyssey 680T battery with Dali Racing V.2 bracket
- tuning the stock ECU for best performance/fuel efficiency after the exhaust system/intake system/clutch upgrades (hopefully Mase Engineering will be able to assist me with this, if not AEM EMS since I'm not really sure about using the AEM F/IC on a '92 and not sure if the HKS F-CON V Pro works on the NSX, although HKS does make an AFR (Air Fuel Ratio Regulator) with two versions, one based on vehicles using a pressure sensor and the other on vehicles using an air flow meter)
- maybe upgrading the valvetrain in the future (camshafts, adjustable cam gears, valves, springs, retainers) to get the most out of the car without actually "taking apart" the motor (removing the heads)
I think that covers everything. So much for a quick rundown, lol.
Looking forward to people's feedback.
Sorry for the thread jack.....
- Joined
- 30 October 2011
- Messages
- 599
The only thing realistically you would need to wrap is the manifolds. since the front bank manifold passes right under the oil pan the heat wrap can keep the exhaust heat away fron the oil. you wouldn't need to wrap anything else.
For the price I think you would be much happier with kw variant three suspension vs the na2 type R. The kw suspension was designed to be better than the type R from all aspects.
For the price I think you would be much happier with kw variant three suspension vs the na2 type R. The kw suspension was designed to be better than the type R from all aspects.
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really ? where did you get that impression? I would challange that on a smooth race track the oem R is better,if not equal:smile:
Appreciate everyone's opinion, but i'm trying to keep the cost down since i have limited funds :tongue: but I am pretty close to what you guys have mentioned except iTB and strokers.
I just installed a super light weight exhaust last night and I just found out how heavy my comptech exhaust and cats are....new one is crazy, go check it out
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156734
I just installed a super light weight exhaust last night and I just found out how heavy my comptech exhaust and cats are....new one is crazy, go check it out
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156734
I heard cams for NSX are like 6k for parts alone lol, is that true? I would probably just go for final gear and make the best out of my stock engine....much cheaper!
i heard cams dont add that much to a stock engine and consider you need to drop the motor to install them.
i just did the autowave ATI damper, it saved 7 lbs, increased hp by 5 whp, and smoothed out the engine drastically. revs up quicker too. highly recommend it.
anyways, jump on the unofficial weight loss thread for inspiration.
i just did the autowave ATI damper, it saved 7 lbs, increased hp by 5 whp, and smoothed out the engine drastically. revs up quicker too. highly recommend it.
anyways, jump on the unofficial weight loss thread for inspiration.
Well I plan to wrap at least the manifolds and the testpipes, and maybe some of the exhaust/muffler's piping (if not the whole exhaust/muffler). 1, for heat reduction in the engine bay/under the car that radiates into the trunk. 2, to help the exhaust system work as efficiently as possible (hotter exhaust gases = decreased exhaust density/increased exhaust flow and increased exhaust scavenging).
I'm trying to squeeze out as much performance from the car in a stock form with radical/alternative methods.
Now I'm guessing it's a given that exhaust wrap works x-times better than heat shields overall. So could a combination of heat shields over the wrap be even better? Is it feasible? Could it be bad/harmful? Could it be good and produce better results?
And then I guess I'll just have to wait and see when I get the heat shields off if there's a significant amount of weight reduction to be had by not using any of the shields. I'm also tempted to weld off/cut off the heat shield mounting holes on the manifolds and the welded-on shields on the exhaust/muffler to get a better overall wrap installation, but I'm not big on modifying/altering OEM parts.
Well, I sort of like the idea of having a really good race suspension at a little lower ride height without height/dampening adjustability. Plus I'm sort of going for a Type R build (mostly NA1 as far as looks and NA2 for performance) if you hadn't noticed, lol.
One question, how is the ride of the Type R coilovers on the street and mountain roads? Dave/NetViper told me the Type R suspension is a bitch to daily drive and more for race-only. Is that true? I understand Honda made the Type R for racing and ultimate performance, but I would've thought that they still would've wanted to retain a decent road-manner on non-racetrack surfaces/public roads/city streets. My understanding (just wishful thinking) was that the Type R suspension was the best of both worlds, take it to the track and beat supercars, then drive it home and pick up some milk and eggs on the way.
Appreciate everyone's opinion, but i'm trying to keep the cost down since i have limited funds :tongue: but I am pretty close to what you guys have mentioned except iTB and strokers.
I just installed a super light weight exhaust last night and I just found out how heavy my comptech exhaust and cats are....new one is crazy, go check it out
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156734
Get some video clips of that ASAP.
And regarding my comment in your exhaust thread, I guess when you're running straight pipes, resonators are probably a moot point as I guess you're not too worried about rasp, lol (but maybe they might make the tone better overall?).
Also can you weigh the "exhaust"/pipes and see what kind of numbers you get? I wonder if it's close to or better than an ARC Titanium exhaust.
Yikes, that's an extremely high number.
Does that mean the stock heads already flow at a high efficiency with the stock cams? But I would think an upgraded valvetrain would still allow the motor to rev more easily and improve throttle response, yes/no?
(and I forgot to consider the dropping of the motor to install cams/valvetrain)
And I've always considered Autowave's ATI damper for my Civics and the NSX (the NSX because of the wonderful stories of stock ones falling apart and causing damage), but with the ATI damper don't you lose A/C?
Once again, sorry for thread jacking, but hopefully I'm contributing to the thread/discussion and not taking away from han0355.
I still have one more question I wanted to ask Gary, but keep forgetting about it.
So does that mean there's not much of a safety margin with the stock tune?
And, so to gain any kind of significant improvement in performance, new injectors are necessary??
But I'm guessing that 5% or less is enough to account for people that do I/H/E? Or are people with I/H/E running the risk of dangerously leaning out when they are WOT at redline?
Thanks in advance Gary. I'm really interested to learn more about this.
There should be 2 separate categories:
1. How to get xxxHP and pass the CA sniffer (this part requires people with serious knowledge base on components and tuning. Only a handful on here have this level of understanding. The rest use Rice Science.)
2. How to get xxxHP
1. How to get xxxHP and pass the CA sniffer (this part requires people with serious knowledge base on components and tuning. Only a handful on here have this level of understanding. The rest use Rice Science.)
2. How to get xxxHP
I have been researching NA options for YEARS. At Batman says, a lot depends on your application and goals. My application is 80% street 20% track. Thus, OEM reliability and ease of operation is paramount to me. As a result, options like ITBs and AEM ems do not work for me because I don't care how much your tuner insists he can get it to run right, aftermarket engine management will never be as good as OEM for reliability and smoothness. I have seen so many threads over the years with people having problems with starts, rough idles, stuttering, or unexplained coughs in power that I just don't trust aftermarket ECUs. For me, they are for race cars. I drive and track my NSX in all 4 seasons as long as the pavement is dry. I need it to start every time, idle correctly and be smooth all the way to 8000 rpm every time.
Honda designed the ECU to take into account all conditions, so I want to keep it. That means relying on a ECU tune. A very interesting and useful point was just made by Gary- the OEM ECU cannot go to 300 whp because it cannot handle the required increase in fuel and timing. I take that to mean the OEM tables cannot be adjusted enough to add enough fuel to keep the A/F optimal?
The only person I have seen who is able to extract consistent power from an OEM ECU is Brian at Prospeed. I would love to get his input here about the limits of the OEM fuel tables. For example, would using NA2 270cc injectors solve the problem, or is it in the software?
I too do not want to crack open the engine and start messing around with cams, compression, etc. Changing any of those components means using an aftermarket ECU. Instead, here is what I have been able to glean:
1. Headers (I use NA2)
2. Exhaust (I have a B&B TriFlo)
3. OEM airbox with paper filter- best for power on stock NA
These will get you to a well-documented 250 to 270 whp, depending on how "strong" your engine is. After that, you have:
4. Lightweight flywheel or clutch
5. Larger injectors (L_RAO is doing some great work on this mod)
6. Comptech adjustable cam gears- this will allow you to degree your cams perfectly, thus getting a "strong" engine like the lucky guys did from the factory
7. ATI damper
8. ECU tune
I think these options will get you very close to 300 whp while remaining very streetable. It's pretty much what I have planned for my 91.
Honda designed the ECU to take into account all conditions, so I want to keep it. That means relying on a ECU tune. A very interesting and useful point was just made by Gary- the OEM ECU cannot go to 300 whp because it cannot handle the required increase in fuel and timing. I take that to mean the OEM tables cannot be adjusted enough to add enough fuel to keep the A/F optimal?
The only person I have seen who is able to extract consistent power from an OEM ECU is Brian at Prospeed. I would love to get his input here about the limits of the OEM fuel tables. For example, would using NA2 270cc injectors solve the problem, or is it in the software?
I too do not want to crack open the engine and start messing around with cams, compression, etc. Changing any of those components means using an aftermarket ECU. Instead, here is what I have been able to glean:
1. Headers (I use NA2)
2. Exhaust (I have a B&B TriFlo)
3. OEM airbox with paper filter- best for power on stock NA
These will get you to a well-documented 250 to 270 whp, depending on how "strong" your engine is. After that, you have:
4. Lightweight flywheel or clutch
5. Larger injectors (L_RAO is doing some great work on this mod)
6. Comptech adjustable cam gears- this will allow you to degree your cams perfectly, thus getting a "strong" engine like the lucky guys did from the factory
7. ATI damper
8. ECU tune
I think these options will get you very close to 300 whp while remaining very streetable. It's pretty much what I have planned for my 91.
as far as the damper, no you don't lose AC.
as for the cams, I was told the gains are minimal... like 5-10whp... the cost of the job isn't really worth it unless its already out.
basically, passing CA smog... no ITB's, stock cats in place, just i/h/e and stock ecu (intakes and headers need to be CARB or intake in a box of some kind so they overlook it) catback exhaust is no problem, smog-wise. noise is another issue, though. you can get away with a chip, though.
that box SOS has for their ITB's could pass provided there is no visible stick filter. a stroker, in theory, could pass... since visually who would know. also there is a video claiming one does on youtube. a cam so mild as to only make small gains would likely be passable as well, but any crazy profiles, i doubt it. However, if you run an AEM ecu on any of these, it wont pass... and you will likely have to revert the engine to stock to make it pass on the stock ecu. so, basically if it cannot use the stock ecu, it cannot pass legally.
you could legally swap in a 3.2L, but to do it legally, you would have to go to BAR and have it checked and approved... or you just don't say a thing and it probably passes sniffer and visual anyways at a smog place that overlooks it.
so CA smog legal = i/h/e, toss on the damper, and tune it for 270whp-ish for a 3.0L... if you have AEM, you can just unplug it and plug in the stock ecu to smog. if you have a chip, it should pass as is, if not swap the chip. easy enough. that is the extent of it.
CA sucks for these things. I figure if I cannot get the car quick enough NA, I will break down and get a CTSC. By the looks of it, it is capable of mid-12's going the legal route with drastic weight reduction and that should be enough.
as for the cams, I was told the gains are minimal... like 5-10whp... the cost of the job isn't really worth it unless its already out.
basically, passing CA smog... no ITB's, stock cats in place, just i/h/e and stock ecu (intakes and headers need to be CARB or intake in a box of some kind so they overlook it) catback exhaust is no problem, smog-wise. noise is another issue, though. you can get away with a chip, though.
that box SOS has for their ITB's could pass provided there is no visible stick filter. a stroker, in theory, could pass... since visually who would know. also there is a video claiming one does on youtube. a cam so mild as to only make small gains would likely be passable as well, but any crazy profiles, i doubt it. However, if you run an AEM ecu on any of these, it wont pass... and you will likely have to revert the engine to stock to make it pass on the stock ecu. so, basically if it cannot use the stock ecu, it cannot pass legally.
you could legally swap in a 3.2L, but to do it legally, you would have to go to BAR and have it checked and approved... or you just don't say a thing and it probably passes sniffer and visual anyways at a smog place that overlooks it.
so CA smog legal = i/h/e, toss on the damper, and tune it for 270whp-ish for a 3.0L... if you have AEM, you can just unplug it and plug in the stock ecu to smog. if you have a chip, it should pass as is, if not swap the chip. easy enough. that is the extent of it.
CA sucks for these things. I figure if I cannot get the car quick enough NA, I will break down and get a CTSC. By the looks of it, it is capable of mid-12's going the legal route with drastic weight reduction and that should be enough.
excellent summary Honcho...fwiw my now departed 96 engine with the cams ect did run lean above 7k rpm,that was with oem fueling, ecu ect.As an aside I think we have a subset of owners who actualy won't be satisfied with thier car until they have modded it to be unreliable and finnicky,kinda like Dave(turbo2go). It is a kooky way of adding more exoticness to the otherwise rocksolid nsx.
This thread should really be:
1. relocated to the best fitting NSX section (NSX Track Talk isn't a good match for non track guys to learn about this topic)
2. renamed " How can i get the most HP outta my NSX without FI and/or cracking open my block?
1. relocated to the best fitting NSX section (NSX Track Talk isn't a good match for non track guys to learn about this topic)
2. renamed " How can i get the most HP outta my NSX without FI and/or cracking open my block?
I gotta say Bat your posts of late are sounding more on point/relevant/and civil. Of course still sprinkled with your fascination of medical oddities/ male -female genital issues.Well done.
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