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- 24 May 2002
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75K Canadian dollars is my limit.
How Much Is Too Much???
- Thread starter blavenia
- Start date
Osiris_x11
Gold Member, Moderator: Marketplace
close-to, but nott surpass...
Oh, there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Honda (and even Toyota, possibly) can design, engineer, manufacture, and sell an exotic supercar to the general public for $125k that would be competitive and rival the other $350k+ exotic supercars (Murcielago, Carrera_GT, Zonda, Koenigsegg, Enzo, etc'...).
By being competitive, I mean being in a similar playing field, ballpark- so to speak in terms of performance. I don't mean outclassing, surpassing, owning, 'destroying' the upper tier competition, etc'...
Here's something interesting I came across awhile back, in regards to what Ford_GT's have been going for:
http://www.fordgtprices.com/pages/9/index.htm
Gallardo's have been discounted about $10-$15k off their MSRP of $173k at times. Demand for the F430 is still very much solid, so they are at a premium even now. DB9 and the 911 Turbo are meeting their respective manufacturers expectations in units moved.
Also, I wonder how much of Honda's decision towards which market segment, (exotic sportscar niche`) they plan to enter will be based on their own home-rivals: Toyota (Lexus)& Nissan (Infiniti). Each of them also has an exotic-type sportscar in the pipeline. In the past, Honda didn't choose to follow their competitor's lead when they went w/ $30k-45k mass-produced, FI sport-scars.
Oh, there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Honda (and even Toyota, possibly) can design, engineer, manufacture, and sell an exotic supercar to the general public for $125k that would be competitive and rival the other $350k+ exotic supercars (Murcielago, Carrera_GT, Zonda, Koenigsegg, Enzo, etc'...).
By being competitive, I mean being in a similar playing field, ballpark- so to speak in terms of performance. I don't mean outclassing, surpassing, owning, 'destroying' the upper tier competition, etc'...
Here's something interesting I came across awhile back, in regards to what Ford_GT's have been going for:
http://www.fordgtprices.com/pages/9/index.htm
Gallardo's have been discounted about $10-$15k off their MSRP of $173k at times. Demand for the F430 is still very much solid, so they are at a premium even now. DB9 and the 911 Turbo are meeting their respective manufacturers expectations in units moved.
Also, I wonder how much of Honda's decision towards which market segment, (exotic sportscar niche`) they plan to enter will be based on their own home-rivals: Toyota (Lexus)& Nissan (Infiniti). Each of them also has an exotic-type sportscar in the pipeline. In the past, Honda didn't choose to follow their competitor's lead when they went w/ $30k-45k mass-produced, FI sport-scars.
I have a friend that has a Mondial, 355 Berlinetta and an F550 Maranello. He makes major bucks and he is selling the 550 because to change the clutch was $6k.
I was going to buy a 355, but these cars have to be treated like a fine watch. You have to be very aware of the miles you drive, because of the scheduled maintenace cost.
I bought the NSX because the cost to enjoy the car is minimal, with some upgrades SC/exhaust etc.. I can keep up with the 355 without the worry, or the cost.
Th cost of an Italian exotic doesn't just end with the purchase. You are always going to be pumping major bucks.
A six figure ACURA/HONDA wouldn't require the additional cost, so in the end it would continue to be cheaper than an Italian exotic.
I was going to buy a 355, but these cars have to be treated like a fine watch. You have to be very aware of the miles you drive, because of the scheduled maintenace cost.
I bought the NSX because the cost to enjoy the car is minimal, with some upgrades SC/exhaust etc.. I can keep up with the 355 without the worry, or the cost.
Th cost of an Italian exotic doesn't just end with the purchase. You are always going to be pumping major bucks.
A six figure ACURA/HONDA wouldn't require the additional cost, so in the end it would continue to be cheaper than an Italian exotic.
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
WHAT!??!?! maybe 0-60 or 1/4miles but thats it. The CGT is one of the very best cars ever built...dare I say better than the NSX...yes! It's what the NSX should have been changed to in 02...now they have to top it in 08/09
IMHO
best car ever McLaren F1
2. Porsche CGT
3. NSX
4. Ferrari F40
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list, Ford GT :tongue:
Vancehu said:
WHAT!??!?! maybe 0-60 or 1/4miles but thats it. The CGT is one of the very best cars ever built...dare I say better than the NSX...yes! It's what the NSX should have been changed to in 02...now they have to top it in 08/09
IMHO
best car ever McLaren F1
2. Porsche CGT
3. NSX
4. Ferrari F40
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list, Ford GT :tongue:
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
You just prove a fact that even if the NSX is on par in terms of performance with Carerra GT @ low $100k, it will still not be in that class. Carbon fiber construction of the P GT will out class the new NSX even if the performance are the same/similar. But that's doesn't matter, Ford prove to the world with steel construction, they can still built a car for around $150k, and have a top speed of 217mph, cost 1/3 of the price of P GT and SLR Vision. If the new NSX can match that and cost less than the Ford GT, mission accomplished. Z06 on the other hand will still suffer from GM's famous poor interior materials and wabbly handling, even though the 06 Z06 is the best of them all, it will not be in the league of the Japanese/European Exotics. Just think of the Z06 as a cilvilzed Viper, that's all. It is however, a major bargain, than again, so are EVO and STI.
I can buy a rolex watch, or a Swatch, both mading in switzerland, and tell the same time, but which will you rather own? Of course, sensible people will choose Swatch and drive a STI, I rather have the Rolex/Omega/Tag and drive an NSX. Than again, other's will go for even more expensive maker just to have the best of the best, and those are the people who will choose P GT, Ferrari, etc. Not to offend anyone, but that's how I see things.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-163497615296121504&q=top+gear
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6514168251893889573&q=top+gear+atom
rickysals said:
You just prove a fact that even if the NSX is on par in terms of performance with Carerra GT @ low $100k, it will still not be in that class. Carbon fiber construction of the P GT will out class the new NSX even if the performance are the same/similar. But that's doesn't matter, Ford prove to the world with steel construction, they can still built a car for around $150k, and have a top speed of 217mph, cost 1/3 of the price of P GT and SLR Vision. If the new NSX can match that and cost less than the Ford GT, mission accomplished. Z06 on the other hand will still suffer from GM's famous poor interior materials and wabbly handling, even though the 06 Z06 is the best of them all, it will not be in the league of the Japanese/European Exotics. Just think of the Z06 as a cilvilzed Viper, that's all. It is however, a major bargain, than again, so are EVO and STI.
I can buy a rolex watch, or a Swatch, both mading in switzerland, and tell the same time, but which will you rather own? Of course, sensible people will choose Swatch and drive a STI, I rather have the Rolex/Omega/Tag and drive an NSX. Than again, other's will go for even more expensive maker just to have the best of the best, and those are the people who will choose P GT, Ferrari, etc. Not to offend anyone, but that's how I see things.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-163497615296121504&q=top+gear
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6514168251893889573&q=top+gear+atom
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
#1: $1,000,000
#2: $440,000
#3: $89,900
#4: $425,000 (1992)
One of these things is not like the other...
No doubt that the CGT is one of the most amazing cars ever. But I think that Honda can put together a package of 2700lbs, 550HP and amazing handling that will keep up with that car for around $100,000. Even at 90% of the CGT performance, will it not be as great?
Imagine a reliable daily driver w/ CGT or near-CGT performance for 1/4 the price. That automatically makes it more of an engineering feat.
BTW, the Ford GT track numbers are quite astounding. I would put it's performance against anything. The ZO6 is not too far off. But these cars are buckets of bolts. Most GTs are destined to become showpiece garage queens. And if the ZO6 turns out to be even somewhat reliable, than GM has created a gem for the ages, no doubt. A real aberration for Detroit, maybe the greatest American sports car EVER.
In terms of price, I really believe Honda needs to keep this around $100K. $75-90 is toally unrealistic for the technology they need to implement. And over about 110K, you'll start to deter people who would rather pay the extra 15K and be seen in their SLK, Aston, Porsche, Maserati and Lambo. That's reality. Honda needs to sway the losers who drive certain cars solely for purposes of scoring with chicks. Some will never be seen in a Honda/Acura, no matter how well built or fast. Their loss. But I believe Honda can/should have a little more success with this car than the previous NSX. I think they can really please everyone (or as many as possible). But they need to use the right strategies, and price is vitally important.
Dan Ciesniewski said:WHAT!??!?! maybe 0-60 or 1/4miles but thats it. The CGT is one of the very best cars ever built...dare I say better than the NSX...yes! It's what the NSX should have been changed to in 02...now they have to top it in 08/09
IMHO
best car ever McLaren F1
2. Porsche CGT
3. NSX
4. Ferrari F40
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list, Ford GT :tongue:
#1: $1,000,000
#2: $440,000
#3: $89,900
#4: $425,000 (1992)
One of these things is not like the other...
No doubt that the CGT is one of the most amazing cars ever. But I think that Honda can put together a package of 2700lbs, 550HP and amazing handling that will keep up with that car for around $100,000. Even at 90% of the CGT performance, will it not be as great?
Imagine a reliable daily driver w/ CGT or near-CGT performance for 1/4 the price. That automatically makes it more of an engineering feat.
BTW, the Ford GT track numbers are quite astounding. I would put it's performance against anything. The ZO6 is not too far off. But these cars are buckets of bolts. Most GTs are destined to become showpiece garage queens. And if the ZO6 turns out to be even somewhat reliable, than GM has created a gem for the ages, no doubt. A real aberration for Detroit, maybe the greatest American sports car EVER.
In terms of price, I really believe Honda needs to keep this around $100K. $75-90 is toally unrealistic for the technology they need to implement. And over about 110K, you'll start to deter people who would rather pay the extra 15K and be seen in their SLK, Aston, Porsche, Maserati and Lambo. That's reality. Honda needs to sway the losers who drive certain cars solely for purposes of scoring with chicks. Some will never be seen in a Honda/Acura, no matter how well built or fast. Their loss. But I believe Honda can/should have a little more success with this car than the previous NSX. I think they can really please everyone (or as many as possible). But they need to use the right strategies, and price is vitally important.
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
I AGREE!!
I hope the P CGT is the car they go after!! To me its just a super NSX built by Porsche
NSXGMS said:#1: $1,000,000
#2: $440,000
#3: $89,900
#4: $425,000 (1992)
One of these things is not like the other...
No doubt that the CGT is one of the most amazing cars ever. But I think that Honda can put together a package of 2700lbs, 550HP and amazing handling that will keep up with that car for around $100,000. Even at 90% of the CGT performance, will it not be as great?
Imagine a reliable daily driver w/ CGT or near-CGT performance for 1/4 the price. That automatically makes it more of an engineering feat.
BTW, the Ford GT track numbers are quite astounding. I would put it's performance against anything. The ZO6 is not too far off. But these cars are buckets of bolts. Most GTs are destined to become showpiece garage queens. And if the ZO6 turns out to be even somewhat reliable, than GM has created a gem for the ages, no doubt. A real aberration for Detroit, maybe the greatest American sports car EVER.
In terms of price, I really believe Honda needs to keep this around $100K. $75-90 is toally unrealistic for the technology they need to implement. And over about 110K, you'll start to deter people who would rather pay the extra 15K and be seen in their SLK, Aston, Porsche, Maserati and Lambo. That's reality. Honda needs to sway the losers who drive certain cars solely for purposes of scoring with chicks. Some will never be seen in a Honda/Acura, no matter how well built or fast. Their loss. But I believe Honda can/should have a little more success with this car than the previous NSX. I think they can really please everyone (or as many as possible). But they need to use the right strategies, and price is vitally important.
I AGREE!!
I hope the P CGT is the car they go after!! To me its just a super NSX built by Porsche
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
If you guys read my translation of "something I read," you will see Mr. Uehera mentioned, the F430 and SLR/PGT are very similar in performance, just didn't have the top speed, therefore, he obviously believe in three or four years, they will probably the same. FGT on the other hand, rely on SC to achieve the number, in a way, it is cheating. Honda will achieve with that kind of number with a NA engine, and if the price is around low $100k, it will be a the best deal in town.
I personally believe the straight line speed of the car is a big deal, but how it will fare on the track is what Honda is after. FGT, PGT are amazing cars, but there is gotta be something else that can be done to make them go even faster.
Dan Ciesniewski said:I AGREE!!
I hope the P CGT is the car they go after!! To me its just a super NSX built by Porsche
If you guys read my translation of "something I read," you will see Mr. Uehera mentioned, the F430 and SLR/PGT are very similar in performance, just didn't have the top speed, therefore, he obviously believe in three or four years, they will probably the same. FGT on the other hand, rely on SC to achieve the number, in a way, it is cheating. Honda will achieve with that kind of number with a NA engine, and if the price is around low $100k, it will be a the best deal in town.
I personally believe the straight line speed of the car is a big deal, but how it will fare on the track is what Honda is after. FGT, PGT are amazing cars, but there is gotta be something else that can be done to make them go even faster.
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
even faster wow, I think the performance numbers are getting to the point that they really cant be exceded, like 0-60, maybe we should care more about 0-100 from now on now to me its more overall feal/handling that matters. Thats why I like the P CGT, its a drivers car, not a computer aided baby like the F430. Both are great and with 500hp+ cars now you'll need those computers unless you wanna be scared about every lil pebble comming out of every turn.
The Ford GT has lots of problem, like build quailty and too many panels with big arse gaps. But I do think the SC is cheating a bit. if it was a v-10 that made the 500hp then they added the SC thats one thing, but to take the Ford F-150 block and build off of that is just lame.
But give them credit, do you really think FORD really could make a reliable 500hp eninge without the SC?? Hell they cant even keep their cars from catching on fire for the past 30 years or so, even when they ARE NOT running
Vancehu said:
even faster
wow, I think the performance numbers are getting to the point that they really cant be exceded, like 0-60, maybe we should care more about 0-100 from now on now to me its more overall feal/handling that matters. Thats why I like the P CGT, its a drivers car, not a computer aided baby like the F430. Both are great and with 500hp+ cars now you'll need those computers unless you wanna be scared about every lil pebble comming out of every turn.The Ford GT has lots of problem, like build quailty and too many panels with big arse gaps. But I do think the SC is cheating a bit. if it was a v-10 that made the 500hp then they added the SC thats one thing, but to take the Ford F-150 block and build off of that is just lame.
But give them credit, do you really think FORD really could make a reliable 500hp eninge without the SC?? Hell they cant even keep their cars from catching on fire for the past 30 years or so, even when they ARE NOT running
Re: Depends what comes w/ the package...
The new Porsche Cayman at $60,000 is pretty close to the NSX I believe in performance (maybe slower but close). This is 2006, where as the NSX price ballooned up to 80k+ for the 2005.
A V-10 sure sounds nice, but that is going to mean the cost of the car is going to be over $110,000. I mean this will be Honda's first V10 for consumers and they were able to squeeze 500HP out of a 5.0liter V8 Legend from Mugen. This is not going to be a low output V10 engine like the viper, I'm thinking it going to be like the Carrera GT V10 high pitch, high rev engine. So maybe more like $150,000 range. If the performance is going to be 0-60mph in 3.7 sec which is achievable with more then 500HP especially in a V10. Then we are talking about supercar status here. McLaren F1 acceleration (low end of course). I know Honda can pull off a decent weight for the HSC. So at $150,000 this will probably be the best bang for the buck supercar in the world.
The bad news is... I won't be able to afford to be in the HSC club.
The new Porsche Cayman at $60,000 is pretty close to the NSX I believe in performance (maybe slower but close). This is 2006, where as the NSX price ballooned up to 80k+ for the 2005.
A V-10 sure sounds nice, but that is going to mean the cost of the car is going to be over $110,000. I mean this will be Honda's first V10 for consumers and they were able to squeeze 500HP out of a 5.0liter V8 Legend from Mugen. This is not going to be a low output V10 engine like the viper, I'm thinking it going to be like the Carrera GT V10 high pitch, high rev engine. So maybe more like $150,000 range. If the performance is going to be 0-60mph in 3.7 sec which is achievable with more then 500HP especially in a V10. Then we are talking about supercar status here. McLaren F1 acceleration (low end of course). I know Honda can pull off a decent weight for the HSC. So at $150,000 this will probably be the best bang for the buck supercar in the world.
The bad news is... I won't be able to afford to be in the HSC club.
