How is the new NSX supposed to compete with this???

[WingZ]

Seriously I know you guys want the new NSX to match the 458 but between this version and the 911 GT3 FORGET ABOUT IT!

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/ferrari-458-speciale-photos-and-info-news

I'm not a german or italian car fan but seriously both Ferrari and Porsche are at the top of their game. Honda is not going to catch them sleeping. We need to look at other new sport hybrids for comparisons instead of believing that even with turbos Honda is going to make a product competitive to the big boys. Targeting Audi R8/Etron and Lexus LF-LC is much more realistic.

 

[NetViper]

Seems to me they could easily compete with a 3000 lbs car and 550 hp. Dump the hybrid.

 

[Caustic]

I agree, I think Honda can easily compete. But should they? If I understood what the car's targets are, it would be easier to root for it.

If it truly is an updated NSX, it will be an everyday supercar. GTR and 911 GT3 would seem like the natural targets.

If they are targeting Ferrari... I think that would be a mistake.

 

[Dhalsim]

In my opinion the target market for the 458 and the NSX are completely different. Not to mention the 458 is twice the price of the NSX.

 

[N Spec]

I don't think the NSX is going to being in any particular price market. They are going to fill the gap essentially and have consumers cross-shopping.

The ~133hp/liter is truly impressive. I wonder what they did to squeeze out the extra 7-8 ponies/ liter? Exhaust mods? I know it's quite restrictive on the regular 458 and that mod alone will net it close to *35 whp, as some dynos have shown. The 200 lb diet is sweet, but I'm not digging the aero kit at first glance...

Also, anyone notice the NSX-R like Hood???

Honda could compete with two turbos like everyone else keeps talking about. It's shame they can't toe to toe NA, perhaps a all motor NSX-R version??? 125 hp/liter with cats and restrictive exhaust like the orginal 458 and then free flowing exhaust mods to get closer to 135hp/liter.

 

[fastaussie]

BLOODY HELL! i can't believe Ferrari has made the 458 even better. that is absolutely astounding. how can anything compete with that?

I agree, I think Honda can easily compete. But should they? If I understood what the car's targets are, it would be easier to root for it.

If they are targeting Ferrari... I think that would be a mistake.

In my opinion the target market for the 458 and the NSX are completely different. Not to mention the 458 is twice the price of the NSX.

they have to target the Ferrari, there is no choice. the 458 is the flagship, mid-engined Ferrari road car. the NSX is Honda's flagship, mid engined road car. the original target for the first NSX was Ferrari, Porsche and everyone who made a Supercar. Honda went toe-to-toe with the best, it didn't matter the price difference. why would the design brief be any different now? if you are Honda, a Japanese company of immense pride, you're not building your highly anticipated follow-up to one of the greatest cars the world has ever seen, only to play with the 2nd string, cheaper Supercars. that is not how Honda, or the Japanese do things...

 

[WingZ]

Seems to me they could easily compete with a 3000 lbs car and 550 hp. Dump the hybrid.

LOL come on Net the hybrid is the whole point of the car. Hell if it wasn't for the insiders pitching the car AS a hybrid it wouldn't have made it this far.

I don't think the NSX is going to being in any particular price market. They are going to fill the gap essentially and have consumers cross-shopping.

The ~133hp/liter is truly impressive. I wonder what they did to squeeze out the extra 7-8 ponies/ liter? Exhaust mods? I know it's quite restrictive on the regular 458 and that mod alone will net it close to *35 whp, as some dynos have shown. The 200 lb diet is sweet, but I'm not digging the aero kit at first glance...

Also, anyone notice the NSX-R like Hood???

Honda could compete with two turbos like everyone else keeps talking about. It's shame they can't toe to toe NA, perhaps a all motor NSX-R version??? 125 hp/liter with cats and restrictive exhaust like the orginal 458 and then free flowing exhaust mods to get closer to 135hp/liter.

Well it still hasn't been confirmed that there will be turbo's but I agree that Honda a company that had been known for great motors would know be using turbo's because they can't compete w/o them is sad. I guess the F20/F22 will be it's last great engines.

BLOODY HELL! i can't believe Ferrari has made the 458 even better. that is absolutely astounding. how can anything compete with that?





they have to target the Ferrari, there is no choice. the 458 is the flagship, mid-engined Ferrari road car. the NSX is Honda's flagship, mid engined road car. the original target for the first NSX was Ferrari, Porsche and everyone who made a Supercar. Honda went toe-to-toe with the best, it didn't matter the price difference. why would the design brief be any different now? if you are Honda, a Japanese company of immense pride, you're not building your highly anticipated follow-up to one of the greatest cars the world has ever seen, only to play with the 2nd string, cheaper Supercars. that is not how Honda, or the Japanese do things...

I agree with you on how can anyone compete but disagree that Honda has to. Next NSX will be starting at $114k or less as the base price which is what less than half of a 458?? Those days are long gone where the Japanese are so prideful that they must outdo their European competition. It was easier back in the 80's and 90's but now that they're paying attention that just doesn't happen anymore.

 

[Hothonda]

991S was the target for performance......Chevrolet hit the bullseye.

 

[NetViper]

LOL come on Net the hybrid is the whole point of the car. Hell if it wasn't for the insiders pitching the car AS a hybrid it wouldn't have made it this far.

Hey, you asked how they can compete, I showed you.

Personally I think the R8 V10 needs to the target. Not a 458 -- not that I would complain.

 

[SOURCE 1]

If I remember correctly the 458 was simply a "drivers feel" benchmark. They are not making this car to compete with the 458. From what I know the target is the GTR and the 911. It is suppose to be priced in between them and exceed them in performance. Remember, the original wasn't targeting the 355 but they ended up building a much better car that the 355 was. So, using a 458 as ANY benchmark is great in my eyes. They are VERY driver connected yet very electrical. GTR is not so much driver connected. 911 is raw.

 

[N Spec]

Well it still hasn't been confirmed that there will be turbo's but I agree that Honda a company that had been known for great motors would know be using turbo's because they can't compete w/o them is sad. I guess the F20/F22 will be it's last great engines.

Part of me wants Honda to keep it NA and deliver 125 hp/liter for whatever engine size they choose, but the dark side of me wants turbo like all of the rumors suggest :biggrin:

 

[blue_myriddn]

How is the new NSX supposed to compete with this???

By having a MSRP of $250,000.

Other wise, there is no point trying to compare the two cars. The scales of pricing have changed since 1991 as have the power differences.

 

[fastaussie]

By having a MSRP of $250,000.

Other wise, there is no point trying to compare the two cars. The scales of pricing have changed since 1991 as have the power differences.

actually, this is untrue. when the NSX was released in 1991, it's target was the Ferrari 348. the 348 had 300hp at the time, and the NSX 270. the 348 cost around $120k for the base model. the NSX cost $60k. so about half price roughly. in 2002, a base model 360 with 400hp retailed at $150,000. a 2002 NSX with 290hp retailed for $88k. not exactly half, but relative. the retail price of a 2013 Ferrari 458 with 560+hp is now $230,000. so if Acura's rumoured target price of $110k to $130K is correct, the pricing scale has remained almost exactly the same over 20 years...

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Chevrolet hit the bullseye.

if Chevy can do it with 1950's pushrod technology, Honda should be able to do it with their eyes closed...

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Part of me wants Honda to keep it NA and deliver 125 hp/liter for whatever engine size they choose

why not? am i mistaken or did the last Honda S2000 engine crank out 120hp litre?

 

[N Spec]

The Japanese S2000 technically was at 125hp/liter because it made 250 hp for 2.0

 

[fastaussie]

fair enough, i though it made 240hp. there you go, they've already done it. and that was a while back, with a relatively inexpensive and unstressed engine...

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if the (rumoured) 3.5l gasoline engine in the back of the new NSX made at least this specific power output, it should equate to almost 440hp...

 

[N Spec]

The Japanese S2000 and Rx8 I may add, has less stringent emission laws, so they were able to squeeze out another 10 hp for both cars, putting them at ~250 hp.

Some would argue even the 440 hp is not enough compared to current cars and most don't view the hybrid power add-on as reliable or consistent (as in how many launches until the batteries need to wait for recharge). I can understand that proposition. It should be 500+ hp from the engine alone to hang with the big boys. Turbo may be the only realistic approach to break 500 hp... If they do forced induction, please let it rev 8,000 rpm Honda either way.

 

[BD]

I'm sure if you want to pay $300k for a car, and there are enough buyers, I'm sure Honda will make the next NSX like that...lol

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The Japanese S2000 and Rx8 I may add, has less stringent emission laws, so they were able to squeeze out another 10 hp for both cars, putting them at ~250 hp.

Some would argue even the 440 hp is not enough compared to current cars and most don't view the hybrid power add-on as reliable or consistent (as in how many launches until the batteries need to wait for recharge). I can understand that proposition. It should be 500+ hp from the engine alone to hang with the big boys. Turbo may be the only realistic approach to break 500 hp... If they do forced induction, please let it rev 8,000 rpm Honda either way.

Their horse power rating is different than ours. For example, 280ps is same as 276 HP.

We had a high HP rating too until they changed the standard 10 or so years ago.

 

[nsx_2k]

I tend to agree with fastaussie, I believe that the NSX should have NA engine. Afterall, Honda is an engine company first & foremost. So it shouldn't too far a stretch for them to create a NA engine that has amazing performance. And as SOURCE pointed out (and I believe Ted Klaus mentioned during an interview) Honda is focused on driver feel and experience which includes the sound. I have a hard time believing the rumors that they will go the FI route for I believe it may attenuate the experience that they are striving to achieve (and we want).

 

[NZNick]

In 5 years time, virtually all cars will be either hybrid, diesel, or electric.

This is the end of the line for large-engined petrol-only cars, with the exception of true super cars - the real exotica - which will sell in very, very small numbers to the ultra-wealthy, or to those seeking a niche machine, such as a track day car.

Honda will not be one of these manufacturers. Porsche will be, but the bulk of their output will be hybrid, with only the GT3 type model in the range being non-hybrid, while there is still a market for it.

Whether companies such as Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin and the like go the hybrid or the niche route remains to be seen, but my money is on the hybrid route, until the all-electric / hydrogen / fuel cell dilemma is solved.

 

[fastaussie]

Some would argue even the 440 hp is not enough compared to current cars and most don't view the hybrid power add-on as reliable or consistent (as in how many launches until the batteries need to wait for recharge). I can understand that proposition. It should be 500+ hp from the engine alone to hang with the big boys. Turbo may be the only realistic approach to break 500 hp... If they do forced induction, please let it rev 8,000 rpm Honda either way.

i think every single person on this forum would agree that 440hp isn't enough to hang with any of the other established Supercar players. 550hp seems to be about the minimum requirement these days (GTR, Lambo Gallardo, LFA, 911 Turbo, etc.), and now the 458 pushed it up even more to 600, where the MP4 is already hanging out with the Viper and top line Corvette in the 600+ club.

if Ferrari is making 600hp from 4.6 litres, why can't Honda do it? no one seems to have a lot of faith in Honda these days. Honda makes Indycar engines that produce 650hp from a 3.5l V8 revving to 10,300 rpm. and their MotoGP bikes are making 260hp from 1000cc. we all know the goal is to integrate the electronic motors into the car, but they shouldn't have any trouble getting horsepower out of the fuel engine honestly. they probably just want to keep the displacement of the gasoline engine small...

 

[N Spec]

That's what I'm saying, the V6 would have to 4.0 liters to break 500 hp if 125hp/liter is standard. That's a rather large V6. I think if Honda goes turbo, it should stay in the 3.2-3.5 range and rev to 8500 rpm atleast or 9000 rpm ideally. 8K+ rev turbo V6 sounds really badass IMO.

 

[WingZ]

Hey, you asked how they can compete, I showed you.

Personally I think the R8 V10 needs to the target. Not a 458 -- not that I would complain.

Yes you did lol. That's a very doable target as I don't see the NSX out accelerating a GTR

If I remember correctly the 458 was simply a "drivers feel" benchmark. They are not making this car to compete with the 458. From what I know the target is the GTR and the 911. It is suppose to be priced in between them and exceed them in performance. Remember, the original wasn't targeting the 355 but they ended up building a much better car that the 355 was. So, using a 458 as ANY benchmark is great in my eyes. They are VERY driver connected yet very electrical. GTR is not so much driver connected. 911 is raw.

Actually your thinking of the 348 but it's understandable as that's an easily forgettable model. The 355 was Ferrari catching up to the NSX with the much higher rated but barely any faster 360 just maintaining. It was until the 430 that Ferrari really eclipsed the NSX and they just kept going.

Part of me wants Honda to keep it NA and deliver 125 hp/liter for whatever engine size they choose, but the dark side of me wants turbo like all of the rumors suggest :biggrin:

It's a shame that the 125hp/liter may not come about.

991S was the target for performance......Chevrolet hit the bullseye.

Didn't they though!!!

i think every single person on this forum would agree that 440hp isn't enough to hang with any of the other established Supercar players. 550hp seems to be about the minimum requirement these days (GTR, Lambo Gallardo, LFA, 911 Turbo, etc.), and now the 458 pushed it up even more to 600, where the MP4 is already hanging out with the Viper and top line Corvette in the 600+ club.

if Ferrari is making 600hp from 4.6 litres, why can't Honda do it? no one seems to have a lot of faith in Honda these days. Honda makes Indycar engines that produce 650hp from a 3.5l V8 revving to 10,300 rpm. and their MotoGP bikes are making 260hp from 1000cc. we all know the goal is to integrate the electronic motors into the car, but they shouldn't have any trouble getting horsepower out of the fuel engine honestly. they probably just want to keep the displacement of the gasoline engine small...

440hp is plenty for it's new price tag. It's not keeping up with the big boys this time around.

 

[NetViper]

A little birdie told me it is going to be faster than most people think and likely twin turbo.

 

[Osiris_x11]

All this concern about HP, many of y'all are missing the point. Be more concerned w/ the torque (and when it's delivered, namely on-demand & mid-range) along w/ linear power-delivery. The "hybrid" electric-motors torque vectoring and instantaneous assist will improve performance more-so than a high HP powerplant.

Honda could compete with two turbos like everyone else keeps talking about. It's shame they can't toe to toe NA...

Well it still hasn't been confirmed that there will be turbo's but I agree that Honda a company that had been known for great motors would k()now be using turbo's because they can't compete w/o them is sad...

It's working out for McLaren, so why not?

The "hybrid" aspect, namely electric-motors, will presumably eliminate the turbo lag. That's the premise w/ the BigMac' (P1)...

Next NSX will be starting at $114k or less as the base price...

It's gonna be at/near $150k when it's all said & done. Presumably $130k'ish starting price...

A little birdie told me it is going to be faster than most people think and likely twin turbo.

Werd.

 

[WingZ]

A little birdie told me it is going to be faster than most people think and likely twin turbo.

Still doesn't make sense that Honda keeps saying NA with Hybrid. The Blue car that ran at OH was running a production powertrain and it wasn't turbo'd. Only Vtec.net's Jeff says Acura told him it's not production but they told everyone else (Big mags it was). I've never doubted it would fast as if Honda could get the old 290hp 3100lb NSX to do mid 4 sec 0-60 imagine same weight but more hp/tq with better traction. I will be surprised if it does 0-60 in less than 3 secs though.

All this concern about HP, many of y'all are missing the point. Be more concerned w/ the torque (and when it's delivered, namely on-demand & mid-range) along w/ linear power-delivery. The "hybrid" electric-motors torque vectoring and instantaneous assist will improve performance more-so than a high HP powerplant.

It's working out for McLaren, so why not?

The "hybrid" aspect, namely electric-motors, will presumably eliminate the turbo lag. That's the premise w/ the BigMac' (P1)...



It's gonna be at/near $150k when it's all said & done. Presumably $130k'ish starting price...


Werd.

Guess you didn't see this

Honda didn't release any new details officially but did make previous generalizations a little less general. We learned, for instance, that the starting price of the NSX is planned to be near that of the Audi R8, which starts at $115,000. Options will bring the price up from there.

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130805/carnews/130809936#ixzz2cjLx8GVL
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Honda won't price it above as the Japanese always price lower than the Germans. BTW I'm not concerned with HP as Porsche has done great things with 400hp 911's. It's all how you tweak it.